Am I saved?

bugkiller · May 13, 2010

k4c said:
I have spent hundreds of hours discussing this topic on this forum so there is a time to kick the dust off my shoes especially when I here such silly arguments as,

And so have I.

A reply like this tells me that you are grabbing a straws to justify your belief.

you presented the verse in support of the sabbath, did you not? Why is it silly of me to point out that this was not a common occurence, or that nearly the whole city were not Christians? I thought our focus point is Christian observence of the sabbath. I did not think it was what the pagans (ungogly - non-Christian) or Jew did. Who is being silly? Who is grasping at straws? Tain't me. So go ahead and shake my dust off your feet. It will not offend me. I need my dust to grow 'mators and taters anyway.

Jesus kept the Sabbath holy because if He didn't He would have sinned and become unacceptable as our perfect sacrifice. Jesus is our example in how we should live.

I agree with your first sentence. And with regards to your second one I would agree that Jesus is our example and I realize that I will never live up to that example. A major difference between us is I recognize Jesus as my Redeemer and you speak of Him as our example, a most common statement and doctrine of your denomination.

Even after the death of Jesus His followers still kept the Sabbath (according to the commandment). If Jesus was teaching against keeping the Sabbath there would be no need for this verse.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Forty years after the resurrection of Jesus and He was still confirming the Sabbath.

Matthew 24:19-21 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Are not both of your examples grasping at straws for support? You would say no because you are accepting without question what your church teaches. First don't you understand anything about human nature concerning habits? These people have done this - observe the sabbath for 30 years and are Jews. Jesus certainly understood. How far is a sabbath day's journey? wouldn't domuch good togojust that far,would it? Can you imagine a pregnant woman winning the 100 yard or 10 meter dash.

I can go on and on but unless you die to sin you will not hear these things.

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I am sure you can. What so you mean I will not hear these things? I take it you mean become an Old Testament Christian and adopt your ideals for my life. Yes you are going to say they are God's and not yours. And I am going to challenge that with scripture.

The fact that we are called to die daily and the fact that eternal salvation is for those who obey Jesus tells us that salvation is a daily need, not a ticket you get punched.

Click to expand...

Obey Jesus, yes. Obey Moses, no.

bugkiller

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bugkiller · May 13, 2010

nahtino said:
It is quest intresting that many christians are willing to do away with the 10 Commandments all just for the sake of justifying their reasoning for not recognising the Sabbath for what it truely is ...

Its a huge huge huge stumbling block for them and personaly it doesnt make sense for God to eliminate the 10 Commandments ...more especialy the Sabbath ..

There is no connection between Christs ressurection from the grave and the Sabbath not being anymore .. There is 0 scritpure that states the Sabbath commandment was obliterated in the Stone tablets when HE died and was riased ...

Impossible .. but sad realy ... that many do not see the obvious and true ...

Produce the tablets. You are refusing to accept Jer 31:31-34 and Hebres 8:8-14 as they are written. You refuse to accept Jesus' own words this is My blood of the new testament (covenant). You refuse Paul's testimony that God had made him an able minister of the new testament. Jesus' statementis present tense and Paul's statement is a stament that something has occurred. You refuse to accept Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law. You refuse Heb 7:12 aboutthe law being changed. Unbelief seems to be the common thread.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 13, 2010

Norbert L said:
Well when it comes to converts, is that such a wrong thing for a Christian to hope for?

Considering the content of discussion in the thread and the fact that we have had exchanges in the recent days, I simply do not understand your comment. The OP is clearly a rhetorical question and validated in the thread. I have been responded to as a seeker, not a fellow believer.

"that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh" (Rom 9:2-3)

However seeing that scripture also has numerous ideas in opposition to each other, it may also be wrong,

No wonder we have a problem.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves" (Mat 23:15)

But to address your OP.

For some Sabbath keepers the nature of being saved is more directly tied into how a person observes "love feasts". That to be more specific to your particular question and using a scripture by extending it's principle to whatever a person believes what these "love feasts" are, but in this case as the Sabbath. It is at least possible to conclude that all those who observe the Sabbath may not necessarily be saved either.

"These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves." (Jud 1:12)

So in essence being saved has much has less to do with just showing up on a particular love feast and observing it. It has much more to do with how the Holy Spirit that is in a person, "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (1Co 6:19), the promise (Joh 16:13) which is leading the Christian into the truth.

Which is one aspect about the Sabbath controversy which makes it a rather divisive doctrine to discuss. And not to dance around the issue, some Sabbath keepers do believe (some do not) that by not having at least the outward sign of keeping the Sabbath, those who practice not observing the Sabbath, may not be saved. But that it also possible that those non Sabbath keeping Christians may be saved too.

This would be a very unusal position for an SDA. Are you an SDA? It is my experience that there is no tolerance on the sabbath issue for the SDA folks. Every single one of them I have talked to say if you don't keep the sabbath you are not a Christian and do not have eternal life. I have even been told I may be a Christian but will not be allowed in heaven if I do not keep the sabbath. It is the first thing a former is asked about on exiting the SDA church per 100% of the testimonies I have heard or read.

So I read your statement as a non SDA statement or a nambie pambie wishy washy statement.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 13, 2010

k4c said:
Let me share with you the truth about God's Law so that you too can be blessed as I am blessed.

[URL="http://looking4jesus.com/Law.html"]http://looking4jesus.com/Law.html[/URL]

I guess you can do that here. But I don't think You wish to have a conversation about it. I want to say how the cow eats the cabbage. Or can I illustrate what I mean by having a father/son chat? In such a chat there is no discussion, just a one way street.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 13, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
I think it is. Christians are called to enter into relationships. This is the only way to create disciples. Conversion is a divine activity, not a human activity. As a people, we believers tend to get confused about our purpose. God has not called us to be holy predators; He has called us to bear one another's burdens, to care for the widow and the orphan and to love well.

But let's imagine for the sake of discussion that our goal as believers is to convert people. What are we to convert them to?

1. Jesus Christ?
2. Theology?
3. The law?
4. The sabbath?
5. A denomination?

BFA

Amen BFA! nice post. Thanks

bugkiller

Norbert L · May 13, 2010

bugkiller said:
This would be a very unusal position for an SDA. Are you an SDA? It is my experience that there is no tolerance on the sabbath issue for the SDA folks. Every single one of them I have talked to say if you don't keep the sabbath you are not a Christian and do not have eternal life. I have even been told I may be a Christian but will not be allowed in heaven if I do not keep the sabbath. It is the first thing a former is asked about on exiting the SDA church per 100% of the testimonies I have heard or read.

So I read your statement as a non SDA statement or a nambie pambie wishy washy statement.

bugkiller

The comments were made in the broad sense of Sabbath keeping in general. Plus I wouldn't want to say for sure what every believer within the SDA movement believes. And I'm not a SDA.

bugkiller · May 13, 2010

Norbert L said:
The comments were made in the broad sense of Sabbath keeping in general. Plus I wouldn't want to say for sure what every believer within the SDA movement believes. And I'm not a SDA.

Thank you. I was referrring to everyone I have talked to. It is interesting that they will call you a Christian at the same time saying you won't go to heaven or not get to stay. I just am not able to link those ideas with salvation or eternal life with any scripture. The key to heaven always seems to be the sabbath. Some of my information I gleaned from insiders and other sources and can quote even recent SDA denomination leaders. I do have some SDA published material that I have gotten from their book store. I do not know everything.

bugkiller

Kira Light · May 13, 2010

bugkiller said:
Thank you. I was referrring to everyone I have talked to. It is interesting that they will call you a Christian at the same time saying you won't go to heaven or not get to stay. I just am not to link those ideas with salvation or eternal life with any scripture. The key to heaven always seems to be the sabbath. Some of my information I gleaned from insiders and other sources and can quote even recent SDA denomination leaders. I do have some SDA published material that I have gotten from their book store. I do not know everything.

bugkiller

Having grown up SDA I found they never said anyone was going to hell for not keeping the Sabbath. They do however consider going to church on Sunday the mark of the beast.

bugkiller · May 13, 2010

Kira Light said:
Having grown up SDA I found they never said anyone was going to hell for not keeping the Sabbath. They do however consider going to church on Sunday the mark of the beast.

That is interesting. How can you have the mark of the beast and be a Christian? I'm not able to square that with scripture. Perhaps you can. I think this is trying to get sweet and bitter water from the same well.

bugkiller

Kira Light · May 13, 2010

bugkiller said:
That is interesting. How can you have the mark of the beast and be a Christian? I'm not able to square that with scripture. Perhaps you can. I think this is trying to get sweet and bitter water from the same well.

bugkiller

They won't directly say someone with the mark of the beast is going to hell, but I am not sure how they would go anywhere else. They "square" this with the kinds of verses about "narrow is the way". They are the 144,000. They believe very few will be saved in the end, and it makes sense to them that this is because 99% of Christians are deceived into breaking the 4th commandment.

bugkiller · May 13, 2010

Kira Light said:
They won't directly say someone with the mark of the beast is going to hell, but I am not sure how they would go anywhere else. They "square" this with the kinds of verses about "narrow is the way". They are the 144,000. They believe very few will be saved in the end, and it makes sense to them that this is because 99% of Christians are deceived into breaking the 4th commandment.

How many members do the SDA have world wide? What are your chances of being one of the 144,000? The odds don't look that great to me. Do you know that there are no females in the 144,000. They are all male virgins. That is a huge disqualifier. I reasonably just don't see much hope. So what is gooing to happen with the rest of the SDA church. You know that the JWs also claim they will be the 144,000 and they have considerably more than 500,000 members. Isn't something a little fishy?

bugkiller

Kira Light · May 13, 2010

bugkiller said:
How many members do the SDA have world wide? What are your chances of being one of the 144,000? The odds don't look that great to me. Do you know that there are no females in the 144,000. They are all male virgins. That is a huge disqualifier. I reasonably just don't see much hope. So what is gooing to happen with the rest of the SDA church. You know that the JWs also claim they will be the 144,000 and they have considerably more than 500,000 members. Isn't something a little fishy?

bugkiller

well even the SDA's don't take the 144,000 completely literally. some do, but it is kind of a gray area. for most it just means very few will make it. there are about 12 million SDA's world wide i believe. they are quite judgmental of each other, too. SDA's that go out to eat after church are frowned on by those who won't. i would even say most SDA's believe the majority of other SDA's will burn. hell is somewhat mitigated by the belief it is only temporary so SDA's are more comfortable with people being sent there.

k4c · May 14, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
I think it is. Christians are called to enter into relationships. This is the only way to create disciples. Conversion is a divine activity, not a human activity. As a people, we believers tend to get confused about our purpose. God has not called us to be holy predators; He has called us to bear one another's burdens, to care for the widow and the orphan and to love well.

But let's imagine for the sake of discussion that our goal as believers is to convert people. What are we to convert them to?

1. Jesus Christ?
2. Theology?
3. The law?
4. The sabbath?
5. A denomination?

BFA

Some may think this is a nice post but it's a silly one because anyone who spends a little time in the word knows that we all must go through the door first and that door is Jesus.

Once we are through the door there is growing to do.

We grow as we begin to understand God's will for our lives, as well as, foundational truths such as how the Ten Commandments fit into God's big picture.

Once all this starts happening we will begin to find that most mainline churches teach a tainted faith. I say tainted because it has its roots in pagan beliefs and practices. Once a believer begin to see this they will begin to search for a fellowship that closely resembles God true church whether that be SDA or whatever.

At any point in this journey of learning, growing and repenting the believer is being saved because he is living up to light that he understands and making the changes when needed. The problem comes when God begins to reveal more truth but the believer is not willing to make the changes due to many different reasons.

bugkiller · May 14, 2010

Kira Light said:
well even the SDA's don't take the 144,000 completely literally. some do, but it is kind of a gray area. for most it just means very few will make it. there are about 12 million SDA's world wide i believe. they are quite judgmental of each other, too. SDA's that go out to eat after church are frowned on by those who won't. i would even say most SDA's believe the majority of other SDA's will burn. hell is somewhat mitigated by the belief it is only temporary so SDA's are more comfortable with people being sent there.

Annihilation is very intersting thing about the SDA religion. It seems to me that this would encourage the sin party. After all you are just going to poof out of existence. Seems to me that eternal never ending torture would be more of a deterrent. Since the SDA also teaches you can not know for a fact you are saved or not. Where is the hope? I find SDA adherents respond very well to fear. It modivates every aspect of their life and is collectively detrimental to society directly related to fear caused by its teaching on end time events. In practice it seems they think they can prevent thus saith the Lord. Examples that come to mind are Sunday laws and abortion.

bugkiller

Kira Light · May 14, 2010

bugkiller said:
Annihilation is very intersting thing about the SDA religion. It seems to me that this would encourage the sin party. After all you are just going to poof out of existence. Seems to me that eternal never ending torture would be more of a deterrent. Since the SDA also teaches you can not know for a fact you are saved or not. Where is the hope? I find SDA adherents respond very well to fear. It modivates every aspect of their life and is collectively detrimental to society directly related to fear caused by its teaching on end time events. In practice it seems they think they can prevent thus saith the Lord. Examples that come to mind are Sunday laws and abortion.

bugkiller

On the point of SDA's not knowing for a fact if they are saved, I never really heard anyone say anything about this. My perception is that SDA's feel a bit more secure in their salvation because, afterall, they are the "remnant" of revelations. Being the remnant does a lot for your confidence. You are already better than 99% of other Christians who carry the mark of the beast. This gives you a little wiggle room in other areas...

VictorC · May 14, 2010

k4c said:
Some may think this is a nice post but it's a silly one because anyone who spends a little time in the word knows that we all must go through the door first and that door is Jesus.

Once we are through the door there is growing to do.

We grow as we begin to understand God's will for our lives, as well as, foundational truths such as how the Ten Commandments fit into God's big picture.

Once all this starts happening we will begin to find that most mainline churches teach a tainted faith. I say tainted because it has its roots in pagan beliefs and practices. Once a believer begin to see this they will begin to search for a fellowship that closely resembles God true church whether that be SDA or whatever.

As we begin to understand the role of the ten commandments as the schoolmaster designed to lead us to God's redemption, we acknowledge that the ten commandments was that first covenant He redeemed us from.

Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

And because we are not under that former tutor that held us in the past tense, this same epistle instructs us to cast off the former covenant issued from Sinai, as the bondwoman was defined to be in Galatians 4:24. That instruction is found in verse 30: Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

The only covenant issued from Mount Sinai was the ten commandments. The meaning of this epistle is very clear to those who know the law's origin.

Adventism doesn't recognize God's redemption. It wants to make its members old-covenant Christians, which is a contradiction in terms. This is why those seeking fellowship in God's true church don't become SDA, or else leave Adventism to join God's true church (which isn't a denomination). While we have passed through the "door" you alluded to, you still try to keep one foot on the other side of redemption.

k4c · May 14, 2010

VictorC said:
As we begin to understand the role of the ten commandments as the schoolmaster designed to lead us to God's redemption, we acknowledge that the ten commandments was that first covenant He redeemed us from.

Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

And because we are not under that former tutor that held us in the past tense, this same epistle instructs us to cast off the former covenant issued from Sinai, as the bondwoman was defined to be in Galatians 4:24. That instruction is found in verse 30: Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

The only covenant issued from Mount Sinai was the ten commandments. The meaning of this epistle is very clear to those who know the law's origin.

Adventism doesn't recognize God's redemption. It wants to make its members old-covenant Christians, which is a contradiction in terms. This is why those seeking fellowship in God's true church don't become SDA, or else leave Adventism to join God's true church (which isn't a denomination). While we have passed through the "door" you alluded to, you still try to keep one foot on the other side of redemption.

You fail to understand the spirit of the Law thus you miss God's awesome work of grace in the new covenant as you go about promoting lawlessness.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

VictorC · May 14, 2010

k4c said:
You fail to understand the spirit of the Law thus you miss God's awesome work of grace in the new covenant as you go about promoting lawlessness.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

So you quote a verse that acknowledges that plainly states "we are not under law but under grace", and then allude to a "spirit" of the law that is not representative of the law's intent designed into it?
I wonder sometimes if you ever read your own posts, and take a step back once you realize you have painted yourself into a corner you didn't expect to. You still fail to acknowledge a clear instruction I documented in the new covenant dispensation, and you appeal to a covenant from Sinai that is not compatible with the new covenant: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9). The "He" in this verse is Jesus Christ, and the "first" was that covenant from Sinai, the ten commandments.

Your accusation that I promote lawlessness was addressed in Romans 3:8, wherein Paul concluded those who do as you just did deserve condemnation.

bugkiller · May 14, 2010

k4c said:
You fail to understand the spirit of the Law thus you miss God's awesome work of grace in the new covenant as you go about promoting lawlessness.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

I am very curious. I read such statements as yours often. Will you please explain how Victor is promoting lawlessness? Everytime I see this type of phrase the comments that usually follow are something like if the 4th is done away then so are the 5th through the 10th meaning it is now OK to murder, lie, steal ancommit adultery. Such a statement seems to be outlining behavior. I then ask what about Gal 5:16-21 where it says if we are led of the Spirit we do not preform the lust of the flesh. Here is the text: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

What I key on is being led of the Spirit opposed to being led by the law. Victor did not and does not promote sin or lawlessness and neither does the NT.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 14, 2010

Another thing I notice is the SDA folks keep saying the spirit of the law. I can not fing the phrase anywhere in my Bible. Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

bugkiller

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