Alright ...So What Are The Options ...?

jamielindas · Apr 24, 2008

That's my point dear, there are only two ways one can know "god's reality"...

1) how they feel/how god has spoken to them.. .which is subjective
2) the word of god, which we've already shown is subjective...

you cannot prove to anyone in uncertain terms what "god's reality"

IamRedeemed · Apr 24, 2008

Rule #1.
God will not speak anything to anyone that is contrary to His Word.

Therefore if one believes they are hearing or feeling anything they believe
is "from God" but is not in alignment with or opposes His Word, they need to
reject it as it didn't come from Him.

Rule #2
The Word of God is not subjective to those who are born again by the Spirit of God.

Rule #3
It is not my duty to prove to anyone anything, concerning God's reality.
It is only my duty to preach the Word of God, and those whom God has given ears
to hear will hear. When one is born again of the Spirit of God and are given a clean
heart, the Holy Spirit will confirm His Word to those who now have spirits that have
been made alive unto God and can now comprehend the things of God previously
unknown to the natural man as they are spiritually discerned.

Rule #4
Please do not call me "dear".
(thought I'd throw that in there lol)

jamielindas said:
That's my point dear, there are only two ways one can know "god's reality"...

1) how they feel/how god has spoken to them.. .which is subjective
2) the word of god, which we've already shown is subjective...

you cannot prove to anyone in uncertain terms what "god's reality"

jamielindas · Apr 24, 2008

So if someone told us that god to him to kill no believers... is that contrary to god's word or not? The OT is pretty clear on how to deal with non-believers and heretics, but the NT contradicts this a little.

If someone says that jesus told them that he died for their sins, and he loves them and accepts their sexuality as is and if they live their life in his name. That sounds like it goes along with some things in the bible, but not other contradictory things in the bible.. so which is it?

Also... are you wearing cloth made of two fabric?

IamRedeemed · Apr 24, 2008

We are now waaaaay off topic, so I guess you will have to start another thread
in another area or something, since this no longer even has to do with the topic of this
forum much less this thread.
(But in the meantime, thank you for showing a live example by the typical questions that atheists like yourself pose, that the Word of God is absolutely accurate in regards to the natural man not being able to comprehend the things of God because without a spirit that is born again, which is made alive unto God, he cannot.)

dies-l · Apr 24, 2008

KCKID said:
With the exception of the most 'hardened' Bible believers (we have at least a couple on this forum) one's 'homosexuality' is probably reasoned by other Christians to be the result of biological or sociological factors. In other words, one's homosexual orientation or tendency is accepted by most (?) as being beyond the control of the individual whereas one's actually 'acting' on that orientation is seen to be 'the sin' ...right?

With that in mind, from a Christian perspective what are the options available for the homosexual person? Are they:

1. Pray to God and be 'delivered' from his/her homosexual orientation?

2. Seek 'professional' assistance in the form of therapy.

3. Marry someone of the opposite gender and do the best he/she can in a heterosexual relationship?

4. Remain celibant for the rest of his/her life?

5. Contemplate suicide if overwhelmed with guilt from the incessant influence of Christians whose role is seen to be to condemn them?

Notes:
1. Many people have prayed earnestly to God to be delivered from their homosexuality. It hasn't helped them deal with it but it HAS given them an extra burden to carry when Christians tell them that they haven't got enough faith.

2. Many people have sought 'professional' assistance and have been just as let down. Professional therapy is questionable at best ...useless at worst.

3. Many homosexuals HAVE married someone of the opposite gender. I have no way of knowing how 'fulfilling' such a relationship is or how long-term such a relationship can be. Living a lie is also very much a burden to carry for the individual. Being a homosexual+ostracized by God+living a lie.

4. Remaining celibant is an option. It always amuses me, however, when others (heterosexuals) who wouldn't DREAM of giving up sex will not hesitate to impose 'being celibant' on others.

5. Sadly, suicide has been the option for too many precious 'gay' people. Enough said.

What are your views on this issue?

Personally, I believe that #4 is the only reasonable option of the choices you mentioned, but as you stated, I as a heterosexual am completely unwilling to live a life of celibacy, so what right do I have to demand that of my homosexual brothers and sisters? So, I suppose the best thing for me to do as a heterosexual Christian (who incidentally is not completely convinced that homosexual relationships are totally healthy and "moral") is to follow the example of Jesus and simply love each "sinner" as they are and let them work out their "sin" with God. It seems to me that if we all focused on the gospel message of grace and love, then those who struggle with homosexual thoughts and feelings would have a much easier time working through the intensely difficult moral questions involved. I frankly don't see any reason to dwell on telling people how "evil" and sinful the homosexual lifestyle is." My impression is that there is not a homosexual alive who has not heard that message (however right or wrong it may be) a million times over. Instead, it seems more appropriate to simply tell them that God's love is infinitely deep for all people and God is more than capable of delivering each of us from our sins when we are ready to be healed.

Fundamentalism doesn't heal sinners; Jesus does. Enough said.

KCKID · Apr 24, 2008

Dies3l said:
Personally, I believe that #4 is the only reasonable option of the choices you mentioned, but as you stated, I as a heterosexual am completely unwilling to live a life of celibacy, so what right do I have to demand that of my homosexual brothers and sisters? So, I suppose the best thing for me to do as a heterosexual Christian (who incidentally is not completely convinced that homosexual relationships are totally healthy and "moral") is to follow the example of Jesus and simply love each "sinner" as they are and let them work out their "sin" with God. It seems to me that if we all focused on the gospel message of grace and love, then those who struggle with homosexual thoughts and feelings would have a much easier time working through the intensely difficult moral questions involved. I frankly don't see any reason to dwell on telling people how "evil" and sinful the homosexual lifestyle is." My impression is that there is not a homosexual alive who has not heard that message (however right or wrong it may be) a million times over. Instead, it seems more appropriate to simply tell them that God's love is infinitely deep for all people and God is more than capable of delivering each of us from our sins when we are ready to be healed.

Fundamentalism doesn't heal sinners; Jesus does. Enough said.

Oh my ...what a breath of fresh air that was. If only some of the more 'gay-hostile' posters on this forum would print out the above message (with permission, of course ), laminate the print-out, display it in a prominent position, and abide by it, then I'm sure the world would be a far better place in which to live.

Well done.

Apollo Celestio · Apr 24, 2008

IamRedeemed said:
Not all. Some people such as I believe Ishida is, are called to a higher purpose and are set apart for service unto God that may not include a wife and family and are known in the Bible as Eunuchs. It does not mean they are not normal or healthy. What it does mean is praise the Lord, sexual immorality will be one less temptation in life for them to have to deal with!

I am sure if God's plan changes at any time along the journey of his life, God will let him
know in more than one way, but he is content in the service to which he has been called.
He should be encouraged and not ashamed.

Thanks, I needed that. I know I don't have it as bad as homosexuals in the persecution department, but I really do feel like a freak, and that nobody can understand that I lack these desires. I'm told it's a gift by some, a defect/disorder by others.. -_-; At least it's lawful..

IamRedeemed · Apr 25, 2008

You are welcome brother, it is the truth.
People who do not have the Spirit of God
residing within them, have no way of understanding
or comprehending the call on your life. God's Word says that
He uses the "foolish things of the world, to confound the wise."

To the 'natural man' as the Bible calls one who is not born again, who has
not the ability to discern the spiritual things of God has really no alternative
but to think to him/herself that it seems so weird, strange or foolish.

But know that God knows what He is doing, and
there is a special call on your life and I praise God that you are content,
and like you said "at least it is lawful"

That made me laugh!

It is also not sinful. God bless you always and happy early birthday incase
I don't see you!

Ishida said:
Thanks, I needed that. I know I don't have it as bad as homosexuals in the persecution department, but I really do feel like a freak, and that nobody can understand that I lack these desires. I'm told it's a gift by some, a defect/disorder by others.. -_-; At least it's lawful..

Jet_A_Jockey · Apr 25, 2008

jamielindas said:
Is the bible the way to distinguish? If so, why is it that so many people interpret it differently? If it can be interpreted do differently, how can it be a useful tool for this?

Well, one reason is because people often have a preconceived notion on a subject before they start researching it. People tend to search the scripture on a subject, not with an open mind, but rather with the idea that the scripture will support their position. It has nothing to do with reading scripture as a learning tool.

Often times, if a particular interpretation is found lacking, the most common defense is to either attack the writers or change the subject completely.

ReligiousTruth · Apr 25, 2008

KCKID said:
With the exception of the most 'hardened' Bible believers (we have at least a couple on this forum) one's 'homosexuality' is probably reasoned by other Christians to be the result of biological or sociological factors. In other words, one's homosexual orientation or tendency is accepted by most (?) as being beyond the control of the individual whereas one's actually 'acting' on that orientation is seen to be 'the sin' ...right?

With that in mind, from a Christian perspective what are the options available for the homosexual person? Are they:

1. Pray to God and be 'delivered' from his/her homosexual orientation?

I have seen this tactic go both ways. I know many fellow Homosexuals who have said to me that they prayed and prayed and prayed, and God turned from them. I have seen many pray for years, to finally hear what God has to say to them. "Your ok, and I will give you the strength you need to remain true to yourself ; because I made you in my image."

2. Seek 'professional' assistance in the form of therapy.

Conversion therapy doesn't work. There have been no legitimate findings to support this "professional" assistance. The majority of "successes" have been false, coerced, misrepresented, or lies.

3. Marry someone of the opposite gender and do the best he/she can in a heterosexual relationship?

I find it sad that I can legally and legitimately marry a women that I don't love, or find in anyway sexually attractive; but I can not marry the man I have been with for years, love, respect, and wish to live in a monogamous, loving relationship for the rest of our lives. You know,,, the way God wants me to.

4. Remain celibate for the rest of his/her life?

One could do that. However, why should I give up a life of love just to please the Christian majority? Or could I love, live with, marry, enjoy equal rights, adopt, and die with a man; as long as we don't have sex.

5. Contemplate suicide if overwhelmed with guilt from the incessant influence of Christians whose role is seen to be to condemn them?

Been there, glad I failed. Enough said.

jamielindas · Apr 25, 2008

My question is... why can't christians stop hating the gays? (I think i'd be great if you stop hating on the atheists too, but we'll get to that).
Fine, i get it. Your religious beliefs clearly indicate we're not going to your heaven. Why must some christians restrict our lives and our happiness here on earth? If I want to commit my life to someone, how does that harm you or your religion or your faith or your ability to connect with your god and go to heaven?

KCKID · Apr 25, 2008

jamielindas said:
My question is... why can't christians stop hating the gays? (I think i'd be great if you stop hating on the atheists too, but we'll get to that).
Fine, i get it. Your religious beliefs clearly indicate we're not going to your heaven. Why must some christians restrict our lives and our happiness here on earth? If I want to commit my life to someone, how does that harm you or your religion or your faith or your ability to connect with your god and go to heaven?

I guess that I'm about to go off-topic momentarily. But I find it necessary to do so. I don't apologize for what might be considered a rant.

Frankly, I don't see how anyone can connect to the God of the Old Testament ...I really don't. A warm, tender, loving God He ain't, let's face it. And yet most Christians accept the 'bully God' of the OT without question. Until recently - VERY recently - I had put such personal doubts about 'a loving God' in the 'it's too hard for me to understand but I have to accept it in order to consider myself a Christian' basket. Today that basket is full to overflowing and these days I really am looking for answers to my previous, but covert, nagging doubts about the God of the OT.

I try to separate Jesus from God since, according to their nature, the two don't even appear to be relatives. Then again, we are told that Jesus was half-divine/half-human just like Mr. Spock from Star Trek was half-Vulcan/half-human. So, was the human side of Jesus the one that we as humans are meant to identify with? In fact, how CAN we HONESTLY identify with a DIVINE being? Despite the fact that as a professed Christian I'm supposed to relate to God, or at least SAY that I do, in all honesty I can't relate to God at all. Furthermore, these days I really don't care who might get offended by that piece of honesty.

There seems to be a lot of the God of the OT in the hearts of many present-day Christians. This may very well please them as, after all, He is the God they profess to serve. But the God of the OT displays little to no 'love' as such. Some, even many, present-day Christians, have taken on the role of stern 'watch-dogs' of the 'written word of God' (?). They (those pious ones of 'the book') come down hard on those they consider to be 'lesser' Christians than themselves. These 'lesser' Christians are often those who still retain their God-given reasoning and logical attributes DESPITE their belief in Jesus. What makes them 'lesser' is that they don't have the 'written word of God' (?) strapped to their foreheads.

While not exclusively so, it's these kinds of 'lesser' Christians who REASON that 'gay' people did not choose to be 'gay' simply to 'bug' God and Christinity in general. They also REASON that 'gays' would generally recognize their 'gayness' as being a 'sin' that is 'abominable' to God only after being bombarded with Christian rhetoric for so long that it becomes ingrained in their psyche. They also REASON that homosexuality cannot be 'reversed' by the reciting of a few ambiguous texts from a book or by being hit over the head constantly with those same verses by others who are sinners themselves even though they may believe otherwise.

The results of Christian ignorance/lack of understanding/acceptance of those who wear different mocassins are far reaching. Some homosexuals become so guilt-ridden by the preaching of mainstream Christianity that a terrible conflict occurs in their lives. Those (homosexuals) who have a strong desire to seek Jesus cannot do so as long as they remain 'gay'. They are persistently told this by the 'pious ones'. And so they pray for deliverence from their homosexuality. And they pray. And they pray. When nothing 'positive' occurs and they are still as 'gay' as they always were they now have an extra burden to carry. And many Christians will be all too willing to add more and more weight to that burden. The 'gay' person who prayed for deliverence did not receive any response from Jesus because of their lack of faith/reluctance to let go of their 'cherished sin'. Double whammy!

The answer to this dilemma is really quite simple. Human beings are complex and diverse 'pieces of machinery'. But they are not machines, of course, but treasures of Go ...um ...Jesus. We need to accept a 'gay' person just as they are. The 'I am a better person/Christian than you because you don't believe what I believe' has got to stop. A fellow sinner is in no position to get behind a self-made pulpit and preach to others "Thou shalt be righteous like me!" when that is no less than hypocrisy. "There is none righteous, no not one (Roman 3:10)." So, don't do it!

Particularly disturbing in regard to the issue of homosexuality is that the Bible - no doubt in MOST cases - is used persistently to support one's own prejudice against homosexuality. This is an absolute 'no-no'. One needs to be honest with themselves and admit to this if it be the case. It probably IS! So, don't do it!

"SO WHAT if you are drawn to someone of the same gender whereas I am drawn to someone of the opposite gender? I am not you and you are not me."

"SO WHAT if I can continue to populate an already overcrowded planet whereas you probably will not contribute because you're 'gay'? I am not you and you are not me."

"SO WHAT if I find the thought of homosexual sex 'foreign' whereas you find the thought of heterosexual sex 'foreign'? I am not you and you are not me."

"SO WHAT if you're 'gay' and I'm 'straight' ...whatever that means ...? I am not you and you are not me. You have the same right as I do to seek Jesus in your life. Come on in."

Unworkable rhetoric? Probably.

IamRedeemed · Apr 26, 2008

Why do gays and atheist or atheistic gays or gays who claim to be
disciples of Christ construe preaching the truth of God's Word as hate?

Love corrects. It is not silent as people race down the highway to hell.

The Word of God even says that a parent who won't correct their child HATES their child.

We would be hating you, if you came to a Christian forum, spouted your untruths, and allowed you to die and pay the penalty of the second death, without opening our mouths.

THAT my friend is God's definition of HATE.

And those that do so, will pay the penalty as the blood of those
within the sound of our voice, will be found on our hands, for
not sounding the trumpet warning.

Ezekiel 33:6
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

The warning is this to ALL (for the sake of brevity, I will only list a couple but be assured there is more!):

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And to those who claim they are Christians
whether straight or any other, behold Ephesians 5:3

Ephesians 5:3
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named
among you, as becomes saints;

jamielindas said:
My question is... why can't christians stop hating the gays? (I think i'd be great if you stop hating on the atheists too, but we'll get to that).
Fine, i get it. Your religious beliefs clearly indicate we're not going to your heaven. Why must some christians restrict our lives and our happiness here on earth? If I want to commit my life to someone, how does that harm you or your religion or your faith or your ability to connect with your god and go to heaven?

dies-l · Apr 26, 2008

IamRedeemed said:
Love corrects. It is not silent as people race down the highway to hell.

True. Love corrects when appropriate and necessary, but love also shows grace and mercy. The simple fact is that just about every homosexual in America has heard the message of moralizing and condemnation that you and others on this forum proclaim. That message has its place, but I don't believe that it serves any benefit apart from a proper understanding of the grace and love of God as revealed through Jesus. For this reason, I do not believe in the slightest, that to preach the message of law and condemnation apart from the message of grace is at all loving.

In short, moralization and guilt do not heal sinners -- Jesus does.

Apollo Celestio · Apr 26, 2008

jamielindas said:
My question is... why can't christians stop hating the gays? (I think i'd be great if you stop hating on the atheists too, but we'll get to that).
Fine, i get it. Your religious beliefs clearly indicate we're not going to your heaven. Why must some christians restrict our lives and our happiness here on earth? If I want to commit my life to someone, how does that harm you or your religion or your faith or your ability to connect with your god and go to heaven?

Hasty generalization.

IamRedeemed · Apr 26, 2008

And it IS appropriate and necessary, in fact in this forum, it is a downright emergency.
Jesus is coming. We need to be ready.

Preaching the truth against the false teachers in here who are deceiving people, that homosexuality is an abomination and on the list of things that will keep us out of Heaven is not condemning. It is revealing that God has already condemned it and it is NOT acceptable in the eyes of God which counters the false teachings and flatteries with the truth from the mouth of God to the pens of men.
It is shining the light in the dark places. God is the judge, He has told us the judgment He has made, and we need to stop deceiving ourselves and others. People are being lied to in this forum Big time.

False teachers are running amok, pretending a) that they are on their way to heaven for one, and b)pretending that they love homosexuals, while preaching into their ears the things they want to hear, so that those preaching what they want to hear will be popular and well liked rather than risking not being liked and tell the truth to the saving of their souls.

As it also says in the Word, it is better to be offended by a friend than kissed by an enemy.
People that claim to love them, while giftwrapping them as they send them down
the road to destruction are not their friends, and will be held accountable.

PS. Those that think they are well, do not seek healing from Jesus.
The truth of God's Word allows us to see our condition before God.
It is what brings us to seek Him, not the lies and niceties in the pretty packages
that the new age church is preaching today. That just causes people to join
a club, but they are not seeking nor getting the salvation of their souls.

Dies3l said:
True. Love corrects when appropriate and necessary, but love also shows grace and mercy. The simple fact is that just about every homosexual in America has heard the message of moralizing and condemnation that you and others on this forum proclaim. That message has its place, but I don't believe that it serves any benefit apart from a proper understanding of the grace and love of God as revealed through Jesus. For this reason, I do not believe in the slightest, that to preach the message of law and condemnation apart from the message of grace is at all loving.

In short, moralization and guilt do not heal sinners -- Jesus does.

dies-l · Apr 26, 2008

IamRedeemed said:
And it IS appropriate and necessary, in fact in this forum, it is a downright emergency.
Jesus is coming. We need to be ready.

Preaching the truth against the false teachers in here who are deceiving people, that homosexuality is an abomination and on the list of things that will keep us out of Heaven is not condemning. It is revealing that God has already condemned it and it is NOT acceptable in the eyes of God which counters the false teachings and flatteries with the truth from the mouth of God to the pens of men.
It is shining the light in the dark places. God is the judge, He has told us the judgment He has made, and we need to stop deceiving ourselves and others. People are being lied to in this forum Big time.

False teachers are running amok, pretending a) that they are on their way to heaven for one, and b)pretending that they love homosexuals, while preaching into their ears the things they want to hear, so that those preaching what they want to hear will be popular and well liked rather than risking not being liked and tell the truth to the saving of their souls.

As it also says in the Word, it is better to be offended by a friend than kissed by an enemy.
People that claim to love them, while giftwrapping them as they send them down
the road to destruction are not their friends, and will be held accountable.

PS. Those that think they are well, do not seek healing from Jesus.
The truth of God's Word allows us to see our condition before God.
It is what brings us to seek Him, not the lies and niceties in the pretty packages
that the new age church is preaching today. That just causes people to join
a club, but they are not seeking nor getting the salvation of their souls.

So, are you suggesting that you believe that salvation comes by obedience to the law? My understanding is that salvation comes only by the grace of God, through faith, and that it is through faith that God heals us in our sin. If this is true, and I believe that this is pretty standard evangelical teaching, then the message we need to be spreading is the good news of the grace of God, not the message of condemnation of the law.

I am not here claiming that I believe that the Bible condones homosexuality, nor am I claiming that biblical teaching on homosexuality is wrong. All that I am suggesting is that every homosexual in America has already heard the message of condemnation and judgment, and that I believe that it is evangelical Christianity's exclusive focus on this message, and the consequent reaction by many on the left, that has led to so much confusion about this issue. Instead, I am proposing a third path for Christians to pursue, one that neither condemns (because that is God's job) nor condone, but one that simply preaches the grace of God and that trusts God to change the heart of the sinner in all of us.

In short, I am far more concerned about homosexuals who are pushed away from the Church, even into atheism, because they have never been taught about the depth of God's grace, than I am about those who are Christians, but who continue in the homosexual lifestyle. I am convinced that we are called to share the gospel ("the good news of God's grace) to all sinners (meaning everyone) and to trust God to change our hearts and our actions.

IamRedeemed · Apr 26, 2008

Is it any wonder these debates exist on a Christian forum in these last days?

2 Timothy 3:1-7
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

IamRedeemed · Apr 26, 2008

No, not at all. It is because we are saved and have become NEW CREATURES that we renew our minds with the Word of God and seek to do His will, and now by the power of the Holy Spirit through Christ's sacrifice, men CAN obey that which the Lord commands, as Jesus said "if you love me, obey my commands", whereas with the law alone, we were able to know God's will, but with merely the will of the flesh, this was impossible to obey. We can't be perfect on this earth, but yet the Bible says "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." Which means the blood of Jesus has not purchased for us a license for iniquity, we are to improve with the help of the Holy Spirit, from the day we are saved until the day we die. Rejecting God's Word is not improving, but deceiving oneself.

But Jesus said, those that are well, have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Who was He referring to? Those that think they are not walking in sin, have no need to
seek the healing of Christ. Those who lie to these people and tell them that their homosexual
practices and being a disciple of Christ can co-exist are outright lying to them and preach
falsely.

And I am aware of what you are saying, I do not have a reading comprehension problem, so
there was no need to repeat yourself, as I believe I have addressed your false presumptions and accusations thoroughly when I told you that, preaching the truth against the false teachers in here who are deceiving people, that homosexuality is an abomination and on the list of things that will keep us out of Heaven is not condemning. It is revealing that God has already condemned it and it is NOT acceptable in the eyes of God which counters the false teachings and flatteries with the truth from the mouth of God to the pens of men. It is shining the light in the dark places. God is the judge, He has told us the judgment He has made, and we need to stop deceiving ourselves and others. People are being lied to in this forum Big time.

False teachers are running amok, pretending a) that they are on their way to heaven for one, and b)pretending that they love homosexuals, while preaching into their ears the things they want to hear, so that those preaching what they want to hear will be popular and well liked rather than risking not being liked and tell the truth to the saving of their souls.

As it also says in the Word, it is better to be offended by a friend than kissed by an enemy.
People that claim to love them, while giftwrapping them as they send them down
the road to destruction are not their friends, and will be held accountable.

The fact that you choose not to acknowledge one way or the other what God has said regarding homosexual practices, makes you one who rides the fence, and God's Word calls that "doublemindedness".

James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Once again, speaking what God has said, is not condemning, it is revealing what God has already
said He condemns, which unfortunately must be said over and over and in more ways than one,
because of false teachers who frequent here, preaching lies to itching ears, deceiving people
and causing them to turn to fables, and follow after a FALSE Jesus through a FALSE gospel.

Hear the Word of God by the pen of Jude:

Jude 1:14-23
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speak great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
But, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Dies3l said:
So, are you suggesting that you believe that salvation comes by obedience to the law? My understanding is that salvation comes only by the grace of God, through faith, and that it is through faith that God heals us in our sin. If this is true, and I believe that this is pretty standard evangelical teaching, then the message we need to be spreading is the good news of the grace of God, not the message of condemnation of the law.

I am not here claiming that I believe that the Bible condones homosexuality, nor am I claiming that biblical teaching on homosexuality is wrong. All that I am suggesting is that every homosexual in America has already heard the message of condemnation and judgment, and that I believe that it is evangelical Christianity's exclusive focus on this message, and the consequent reaction by many on the left, that has led to so much confusion about this issue. Instead, I am proposing a third path for Christians to pursue, one that neither condemns (because that is God's job) nor condone, but one that simply preaches the grace of God and that trusts God to change the heart of the sinner in all of us.

In short, I am far more concerned about homosexuals who are pushed away from the Church, even into atheism, because they have never been taught about the depth of God's grace, than I am about those who are Christians, but who continue in the homosexual lifestyle. I am convinced that we are called to share the gospel ("the good news of God's grace) to all sinners (meaning everyone) and to trust God to change our hearts and our actions.

dies-l · Apr 26, 2008

EDIT: I have retracted my previous comments because I have already said my peace as it relates to IamRedeemed's comments and continued to debate would be fruitless and ungraceful. It is sufficient to say that I believe that God's grace is big enough for all people who are willing to acknowledge their need for it, even if there remains some question about which actions are or are not sinful in themselves. I continue to stand by my belief that, as it pertains to the issue of homosexuality, the message that needs preaching more than any other at this point in history is the good news of the depth of God's grace that sent His Son to die so that we could be free even though we are all sinners and unworthy of God's glory. I think that that is all that needs to be said by me on this topic.

I wish grace and peace to all, especially to those with whom I most fervently disagree.

Alright ...So What Are The Options ...?

When given the option, choose love and compassion

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

When given the option, choose love and compassion

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

dies-l

Guest

Well-Known Member

Deal with it.

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

Jet+Jetslove=2gether4ever :)

Member

When given the option, choose love and compassion

Well-Known Member

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

dies-l

Guest

Deal with it.

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

dies-l

Guest

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

Blessed are the pure in Heart, they shall see God.

dies-l

Guest

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