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All praise to the grumpy God!

candle glow

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NOTE: A friend of mine recently sent this to me and I thought it's worth posting. Enjoy.

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My wife and I were reading a couple of chapters in Luke's Gospel this week, and I was struck by the fact that God does not seem to have a problem with using negative metaphors in reference to either himself or his followers.

First we read about Jesus comparing his followers to vultures in the 17th chapter. When the disciples asked Jesus where they should go to hide during the tribulation, he said, "Wherever the carcase is, that is where the vultures will be." The KJV kindly uses the word "eagle" there, but newer translations seem fairly confident that the scavenger he was really referring to is a vulture.


The answer he gave to his disciples is somewhat cryptic, but it does seem to imply that we will have to get over any hang-ups we might have about being looked down on as scavengers/vultures. It reminded me of my wife's article about us being "cockroaches for Christ". It just totally clangs with the respectable image that so many Christians cling to so desperately.


Then, in the 18th chapter of Luke, Jesus compared God to a mean old judge, who was too heartless to give in to an old woman's pleas for justice, until she finally wore him down just through her persistence. He actually admonishes us to be like that with God, i.e. to know what we want, and then to keep on asking until we get it. I've even seen it work for people praying quite selfishly, but hopefully we will be more inclined to ask for the kind of things that he listed in his prayer for us to pray.


Finally, I came across the story, in the 19th chapter of Luke's gospel, of a harsh ruler who had set off to have himself declared king. Although he entrusts three of his subjects with very large sums of money to be invested, we are told that the people in general did not like him. It sounds so much like what you hear these days about the angry God in the sky, with a long white beard, waiting to judge us if we do things wrong. The world (and the church too, sadly) has come to really despise such a God.


Yeah, sure, we see another side to God now, through his loving sacrifice of his own son to save the world; but it does not make a lie of what the Old Testament says about him also being what we might call a harsh (or even unfair) God. There are so many things in the Old Testament that really are hard for us to reconcile with a "loving God", but Old Testament aside, the fundamental message of the New Testament doesn't make him look much better, if he would be willing to see his own Son tortured to death as part of his plan for saving the human race.


It's nice to know that it was all done to rescue us from condemnation, but what kind of a Father does that make God in the eyes of his Only Begotten? On a human level, even if we could be convinced that a son had consented to such treatment, it would not stop us from seeing the father as a monster… and the son as having been brainwashed into accepting such a cruel decision.


Jesus tells us this story about the harsh ruler who sets off to become a king, and it says what happens when he returns:
15 “He sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’
17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’
18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’
19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’


Do you get the picture here? This servant knows that if he had lost or even poorly invested the money he had been given, he would have been forced to pay dearly for it. So he does what he thinks is the "safe" thing. He hides it. He knows that the new king is a harsh one, and that he makes his own rules according to his own apparently selfish standards. Yet, somehow, that knowledge did NOT lead him to invest the money.



The new king responds:
[FONT='Charis SIL', charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’[/font]
24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
[FONT='Charis SIL', charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”[/font]

I have a friend who once served God. But one day he decided that it was time for God to follow HIS rules instead. He turned on God in anger, and he produced a web site blaspheming and condemning God for not being loving enough. His hatred knew no bounds. And he was adept at listing the various complaints he had against God, not least of which was what he did to his only begotten Son.



The problem is that not one word of what my friend has said has made one iota of difference. God is still God, and he is still just a "very naughty boy". God has a RIGHT to make the rules, and it is a rebellious and sinful generation that says otherwise. We don't hear people complaining about having been given life, nor do they complain about the wonders of taste and sight and smell. They may revel in the pleasures of sex without a single positive thought for the one who created our ability to experience such pleasure.


But when something goes wrong… when someone dies who they would rather not see die, when circumstances turn against them, when they experience pain, God is the one to blame. Not once do they approach him humbly as the all-powerful all-wise God that he is. Not once do they listen honestly for an answer when they start screaming "Why?" All that matters is that they DON'T LIKE IT, and God gets the blame.


But, like I said, Jesus knew that from the start. He would be the first to admit (as he did in the passage quoted above) that God is a harsh judge at times. Oh, he can (and does) change his mind occasionally, as illustrated by the widow who begged and begged until she wore him down. But no one… not you… not me… not anyone is going to be able to tell God what he can or cannot do on judgment day.


Jesus warned that the road to heaven is narrow, and the road to hell is wide. He warned that there would be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for most people. He made demands on those who would like to think that they have faith in him. But all of this gets swept under the carpet when a few proof texts are rolled out to convince people not only that they don't have to do a single thing to be saved, but that if they say a magic prayer, not even God himself can stop them from claiming a right to heaven and all that it contains.


The Lord's Prayer starts out with a plea for God to make people reverence his name, and for God's kingdom to come to earth as it is in heaven. Certainly today, more than ever before, there is a need for people who will show the kind of reverence, awe, and worship of God that he deserves, and people who would let go of all their attachments to the present world system in order to even catch a glimpse of this coming world order, let by God himself.


This reverence can only start when we stop telling God how he must act (usually based on some half-baked interpretation of a few proof texts from the Bible), and start searching for what it is that he has told us to do, especially as he has spoken to us through his Son. I have no doubt that God is a god of love; but we must let him define just what that entails. There is much we could learn if we would let God be God, and open our minds to the possibility that our understanding of love is quite different at times.
 
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Norah63

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Most see in God what they want to allow. Maybe if you are feeling grumpy then that is an attribute you would want to find in Him.
Must say that is not how I have ever found my Heavenly Father.
Love never fails, He gives comfort and joy and peace everyday.
Luke 18 tells me what a just God we serve.
Would not recieve a message like that one CG.
Doubt and unbelief are all downers.
 
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candle glow

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Hi Bocannes. Thanks for trying again to share your position, though I think I'm still not getting you. This is the part from the study which I think you are talking about


You said the thought shared here was a "complete misunderstanding", and in your clarification, it seems that it's the "mean old judge" part that you take offense at.

How about a rephrase? "Jesus compared God to a grumpy judge, who refused to give in to an old woman's plea for justice, until she finally wore him down just through her persistence."

Is that more agreeable with your understanding of what the passage actually says and the lesson about persistence even when we are asking for something right and it appears that God just isn't listing to us?

Most see in God what they want to allow. Maybe if you are feeling grumpy then that is an attribute you would want to find in Him.

Hi Norah. I don't think the author is seeing something that he simply "wants" to see. The study is based on actual evidence from the Bible, and I believe it is a genuiine attempt to understand those times when it appears that God is not the "all loving" God that some Christians try to force him to be.

The point is, God has a right to act contrary to OUR ideas of how a loving God is supposed to act.

Jesus referred to a woman as a dog. He practically referred to Peter as Satan. He drove money changers out of the temple with a whip. He referred to religious leaders as pigs, dogs, vipers, and blind. He addressed his mother as "woman" and on several occasions accused his followers (those who had forsaken all to follow him) as faithless, at one point even asking "how long must I be with you" in frustration.

God has the right to be grumpy if he wants. It's the "but a loving God would never..." people who've taken it upon themselves to dictate how a loving God must and must not act in order still be a loving God in their books.

But, as experience shows time and time again, you can't put God in a box.
 
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bocannes

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It's not that I take offense but that I am trying to point out a misunderstanding. Jesus does not compare God to a "mean", unjust judge. That implies that God is comparable to that judge and that is absolutely untrue. Jesus contrasts Him with the judge, saying that if an unjust person like this will eventually give you justice, you can certainly believe that your loving Father will.

Jesus also does not refer to that woman as a dog. He uses an analogy to describe His mission and possibly, to challenge her. The point He makes is that He has come for the Jewish nation first and then all nations. The woman replies wisely, connecting with the analogy and Jesus recognizes her faith. Once again, it is a demonstration that our Lord cares about our hearts most of all.

Jesus made a whip to drive out the animals that people had brought to the temple. The Bible does not say he used it on the merchants.

The Bible does show that God loves everyone and that He is merciful and just. You say that this text is a genuine attempt but it appears to be willfully ignoring the message of the text. If it is a genuine attempt, then the writer needs to reevaluate with some thoughtful consideration.

It is true when you say that we can't always understand God. He does things that are beyond us but we should take time to consider the Bible carefully. I don't believe there is evidence to support the claim about negative references.
 
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Luke1433

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Bocannes, I can see your point that Jesus was indicating that God would be even more willing (than the grumpy judge) to help us if we were persistent in our prayers, but that is not quite the same as "contrasting". If he had said, "The grumpy judge would NOT change his mind, whereas God would, then that would be a contrast, in that the actions of one would "contradict" (from which we get the word "contrast") the other. But he didn't do that. He WAS comparing them. When we compare things, we do not say that they are the same, but instead, we note similarities as well as differences.

You say that the writer "completely misunderstood" the story of the unjust judge, that it is "absolutely untrue" that God could be comparable to that unjust judge, and yet you say that it is true that God sometimes does things that we cannot understand. Now let's assume that you or I start asking God for something that we think is quite fair, but we don't get it. Do we toss him out as "unjust", because we heard somewhere (perhaps even in your own post) that God loves everyone, and it seems to us that it is unloving of him not to give us what we want (especially if it's something unselfish that we are asking for)?

What I think the article is meant to be doing, however, is challenging the "respectable" image that so many of us associate with Christianity these days. It seems like we cannot handle the slightest hint that God would ever contradict our own sweet, gooey, unreal expectations about niceness and respectability. The real message of the article seems to be that the world needs to wake up and let God be God, instead of demanding that he always behave according to our limited understanding of what is good, fair, loving, and right.

Doesn't a situation like that immediately place us in a position where one part of our understanding says that God is "unjust" (like the judge, who would not give the widow what she asked for), even though a wiser person might say that we just need to be persistent and patient? Can you see how that is exactly what Jesus was saying through the story. In other words, he WAS comparing our human understanding of God to how we would feel about the unjust judge. He was ACCEPTING that we might have some human reason to think that God is unfair... even though the bottom line is that he is NOT unfair; he will even everything out in the end.

Unless we can accept that some people really do misunderstand God's love at times (thus leading them to see him as an "unjust judge") we cannot get the lesson.
 
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candle glow

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Thanks for that clarification, luke. I particularly liked this part:

 
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bocannes

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Thanks for your thoughtful response, Luke1433.

I agree that we shouldn't limit God to what we think is fair because He sees the whole picture and we do not. However, that is not what the passage is about. Luke 18 begins with this very statement: Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up.

Furthermore, the judge is called unjust in the story. God never calls Himself unjust because He is not. So, I still say that the original post misconstrues this. God is not an unjust judge.

You say that contrast requires contradiction. The heart of the judge contradicts the heart of God. That is a key point. If we stay strong against an unjust judge, we should stay strong with a loving God. The unjust judge was slow and denied her for a time but God "will see that they get justice, and quickly". Again, there is a contrast.

I understand what you are saying. If someone asks God for something and doesn't get it, they need to accept it. Discipline is important. Love isn't just giving someone what they want. No decent parent would consider it loving to give a child everything they want because a parent is wiser and knows some things are bad for the child.

The Bible certainly teaches the principle that God disciplines but it is as a loving parent and not an unjust judge. So, the Bible does support what you are saying, just not in this passage. Is that principle the point of the original post? Perhaps and that is why I asked but Candle Glow has still not answered my question.

In the end, there are parts here that I don't think are written well and misinterpret some of the Bible. It may be written with good intentions and that is fine but I can definitely see it fueling the wrong kind of arguments for some people.
 
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candle glow

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The comparison comes in that God does NOT always answers prayers, even when they are prayers for justice or something right, much like the judge in the parable did.

Some people come to the conclusion that either there is no God, or that God himself is unjust, or that he is a cruel God or possibly that he is just a mean, grumpy old guy up there in Heaven.

But the lesson of the parable is that the judge DID do the right thing in the end; it just took longer than what the widow would have preferred.

The lesson for us is to not give up asking, even if we believe that a loving God would just naturally answer our prayers for righteousness straight away, instead of delaying and making us wait.

A loving God wouldn't delay justice, would he? He would have to be a bit of an "unjust judge" to refuse to deliver justice when called upon, right?

Jesus makes a further comparison when he says:
LK 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

LK 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Why would Jesus tell us to listen to an "unjust" judge, the character who is supposedly the contrast to how God behaves? Isn't it because he was making a comparison between the judge doing the right thing in the end, despite the delay, and how God himself operates sometimes when dealing out judgment?

Look at verse 7. The judge took long in giving the widow her justice. God sometimes "bears long" when dealing out justice. There is definitely a comparison.
 
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Luke1433

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On the whole, Bocannes, I liked your response. Yes, definitely, the judge is described as "unjust", whereas we Christians would never want to refer to God as being unjust. I think something similar happens in the passage where Jesus says, "If you, BEING EVIL, give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to you."

However, what I THOUGHT you were doing at the start (and what I still think Norah is doing) was just kind of expressing a knee-jerk reaction against even trying to understand how people feel who say that God has not been loving toward them. Yes, the article seems to actually express some of the classic arguments against God, and so it's easy to think that it's supporting the spirit of those arguments. But, of course, if you read it to the end, it's actually quite straight about saying that we have no right to tell God how he must behave.

I see a dilemma in your reference to God acting "quickly" (in contrast to the judge acting slowly) because the passage does seem to be making that promise, and yet there also seems to be a serious contrast to what "quickly" means to God and what it means to us. I mean, why even bother telling us to be persistent in our prayers if God is going to answer them the moment we snap our fingers?

So what we are dealing with is possibly an exaggeration in two directions at once. The unbelievers are saying that God doesn't exist, largely because they don't see God's kingdom of justice operating in the world yet; while many believers are covering their eyes and refusing to accept that God does NOT seem to be acting quickly, or bringing justice yet.
 
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Lilly Owl

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It's odd the more I read the Bible I borrowed from the library how God's personality so closely resembles ours. Jealous, angry, possessive, revengeful, hateful.

God hates.
That sounds so odd when a lot of things we do are considered sins and yet those same personality characteristics we have to overcome as sinners are innate characteristics belonging to God.
And why did God let Satan live after his rebellion in Heaven? Only to let him fall to earth as punishment and yet an abode where we would be born so as to always be in the presence of that father of lies and the ultimate sinner that we have to overcome, being sinners ourselves.

How is it free will? When scriptures say God predestined everything? And there are rules we have to conform to in order to be in grace? While God is all knowing.
 
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Luke1433

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Welcome to the thread, Lilly. You ask a lot of difficult questions. Have you come up with any answers for any of them?

It sounds from your signature like you have some kind of faith in God, and yet your questions sound a bit like you feel that God is unfair. It's good that you have turned up in the middle of this conversation, because I think it's a good test for us to be able to confront those kind of questions and decide how best to deal with them.
 
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candle glow

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Welcome, Lilly. I'll take a stab at trying to address some of your questions.


I feel like you've kinda answered your own question about why God allowed Satan to live on the Earth, when you say that we "have to overcome".

It's like the question, "if God created everything, then that MUST include Satan and evil, right"? Maybe so. I had a friend who proposed an explanation that perhaps God created Satan and allowed him to continue living, after the fall, to give us something NOT to choose.

I think there is A LOT to the background of the "fall of Satan" story that we don't know and so we could speculate endlessly, which is why I feel the "to give us something not to choose" explanation is so good, because it's simple and does not require a lot of complicated explanation in order to work.

How is it free will? When scriptures say God predestined everything? And there are rules we have to conform to in order to be in grace? While God is all knowing

I don't understand the whole "predestination" doctrine all that well. What I do know is that God expects us to make choices which will have effects on us in eternity.

I also believe that God does get himself involved in our everyday lives, in ways that we either can't see, or just don't understand, which could have effects on the choices we make. I'm not sure if that relates to predestination or not.

I think the safest bet, in a situation where there is confusion about whether our choices in life make any difference to God or not, is to err on the side of caution and believe that God really does care about the choices we make, and that his decision about who to give eternal life to will almost certainly be influenced by who cared enough about him to actually try to be more like him.
 
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bocannes

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The comparison comes in that God does NOT always answers prayers...

But the lesson of the parable is that the judge DID do the right thing in the end; it just took longer than what the widow would have preferred.
[cutting this short]...

Sorry, I just don't agree. You're reading things into the text that simply aren't there. The lesson is what the text itself states: not to give up. And Jesus is saying to pay attention to what the unjust judge said precisely for the contrast. If this unjust man who doesn't care will eventually give someone justice just to get rid of them, God's people can certainly believe that God, who does things for the right reasons, will grant them justice.

Furthermore, "God does NOT always answer prayers"? I don't think I can agree with that, either. God isn't a magic genie granting whatever we want but He answers us. It might be "yes", "no" or "wait". Regardless of the answer, we need to have faith that God is working in justice and love.
 
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bocannes

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On the whole, Bocannes, I liked your response. Yes, definitely, the judge is described as "unjust", whereas we Christians would never want to refer to God as being unjust. ... [saving space]

Good points. I should be careful how I respond because I could misunderstand what the post was trying to say. I wasn't sure. It seemed to be expressing something good but I didn't think it was doing it very well. At least, I think it could be misread to support arguments it doesn't intend.

I agree about the "quickly" problem, too. Most (if not all) of us run into situations where "quickly" is the last word we would use to describe the response from God. What we need to remember is that God has a plan. If we get a "no" or we have to wait, it's because God cares and He knows what is best. That judge just denied the widow because he was unjust and didn't care.
 
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candle glow

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Furthermore, "God does NOT always answer prayers"? I don't think I can agree with that, either.

I once heard a country song which I was quite taken with. I have nothing against country music, though it's a genre I would not normally choose to listen to.

However, this song came on over the speaker system and I listened to the words. It was about a man who was thanking God that God did NOT answer his prayers about wanting to get with a girl he liked in school.

As a result of God not answering that prayer, he ended up with a woman he really loved and children he cared for and a very happy family life. The chorus of the song was thanking God for unanswered prayers.

Yeah, sometimes God does NOT answer prayers, bocannes. I know that sounds really hard to believe when we're talking about an "all loving God", but reality shows us that it's simply a lie to teach that God will answer any prayer any time just because we ask, on the basis that he must do so because he is a loving God.

Such a teaching sets people up for automatic failure. We need to accept that sometimes God does NOT answer prayers, no matter how righteous the prayer is, and sometimes that ends up making people feel that he is unjust.

But he is not unjust, no matter how just WE feel in proclaiming that just god would not ignore our pleas for justice. If he takes longer than we had hoped for in answering our prayers, he is not unjust. If we beg and plead for 40 years or justice, and he answers in 50 years, he is still not unjust, not matter what we may think of his timing.

The point of the parable is that God has the right to choose when to answer prayers no matter what we may think of his timing; we should stay faithful if it's what we really believe is right.

I really don't see why you are okay with what luke is saying, but you have a continued problem with what I'm saying. Can you explain the difference between what the two of us are saying and how that affects your response to each of us?
 
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hopeinGod

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How we view God's character is very often conditioned upon our training or preferred teachings.

If, when we consider the seasons in the Lord, we always go to the devil as the source of our troubles, we will miss that God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

For there truly is a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to get, and a time to lose....and more.

And so who should we place the fault on for these varying seasons? Is it all the devil's fault that we die, break down, weep, mourn and lose? Is it entirely because we are reaping what we've sown in the past? Or does God truly send whatsoever He wills to cause change in us?

"Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: for he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole." (Job 5:17-18)

We must be as discerning as the men of Issachar who had understanding of the times. Knowing the causes of our conditions sometimes requires we rebuke the devil, at other times that we ask for forgiveness (while we hope that the reaping is quick), and, at other times, that we merely flow with God's appointed work.

It may not feel good to acknowledge the Lord's dealings in our lives, and in the midst of it all God may seem to be unfair, but they are for His purposes and His vision, not our own.

Dave
 
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