Alcohol

StormyOne · Feb 12, 2010

k4c said:
I have to learn not to reply to your comments because you have no desire for truth.

2 Timothy 3:7 These people are "always learning,'' but they are never able to come to truth.

well if you stop responding who then will you discuss things with as this is a "discussion" forum.... unless you would prefer that the comments you make not be questioned.....

StormyOne · Feb 12, 2010

k4c said:
You are a man of many words. Why don't you just say you're trying to get around obeying God. It's would be a lot easier for us all.

A bit testy this evening huh...... lol

solja247 · Feb 12, 2010

It is odd to imagine Jesus as a drunk. For sure.

Did Jesus get drunk?

Having said that, for some people, inebriation creates an opening to clear some things from the emotional body that are not as easily cleared when sober. There's also a depth of forgiveness that can happen between people because of this openness. Sometimes.

Also it is easier to get into trouble when drunk. Date rape. Car crashes. Alcohol poisoning. fights and the list goes on.

Here is another question does alcohol have any benefits in society?

Avonia · Feb 12, 2010

solja247 said:
Also it is easier to get into trouble when drunk.

For sure. But it's also easier to get into trouble when you are angry.

solja247 said:
Here is another question does alcohol have any benefits in society?

Of course. But I am not sure the benefits are worth the risk for many people.

Joe67 · Feb 13, 2010

There was a time in my christian experience when I abhorred the use of fermented liquids. But I was very much hooked on sugar molecules in the form of carbohydrates and honey and raisins and dates, and bananas, etc, the righteous way of satisfying the thirst for sugar.

May God give us grace for the grace, from the fullness of grace that is in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Joe

BigRedBus · Feb 13, 2010

Do I drink alcohol? Yes, but probably no more than once every few weeks, and it's usually no more than a couple of pints of beer.
Do I think the Bible supports the consumption of alcohol? If you wish to, you will find it supports whichever stance you agree with. The support is only implicit, though.
Do I think Jesus drank wine? Probably yes... it was an ingrained part of the Mediterranean lifestyle. It would have been such a commonplace activity that it wouldn't have warranted any special historical record.
Do I think it is wrong for Godly people to consume alcohol? If it is to excess, then yes I think it's wrong... whether someone is Godly or not makes no difference.

Anyone seeking guidelines on safe drinking should look beyond the Bible and refer to sources such as the British Medical Association or its American counterpart. They will find much clearer and more explicit advice there than what is in the Bible.

Excess (to me) means levels of consumption that do any of these things: harming your personal relationships, impairing your health, impairing your work/study performance, compromising your safety or that of others, causing you financial problems, or putting you in breach of the law. That level is not exactly defined, but I would suggest that going beyond the BMA recommended maxima would take you into that kind of territory before long.

Odd how we Christians can get quite worked up about drinking the occasional glass of wine... yet we guzzle sugary soft drinks like there's no tomorrow (me included). The Bible certainly doesn't prohibit the drinking of cola-type drinks, for example, yet I doubt they are any better for your health just because they have not been fermented.

AzA · Feb 13, 2010

BigRedBus said:
The Bible certainly doesn't prohibit the drinking of cola-type drinks, for example, yet I doubt they are any better for your health just because they have not been fermented.

They aren't better at all. They're just unrestricted.

But for benefits: Coke is a great drain cleaner. So is vinegar and baking soda. Somehow, since I started using them as cleaning products I've been disinclined to consume them for kicks.

That said, a small quantity of coke (30ml or so) is useful as a stomach settler. I haven't parsed out whether that's because of the caffeine or because of another of its many chemicals. But I find that root ginger tea is even more effective.

For full disclosure, I stopped drinking fizzy drinks on a regular in high school when I only got so much money a week and discovered that bringing a bottle of water to school every day saved me a ton of pennies.

Isaiah 66 is an argument about idolatry, not nutrition or festivals.

SoldierOfTheKing · Feb 13, 2010

Question number 1: Do you drink?

Yes.

Question number 2: Do you think the Bible supports drinking alcohol?

Yes.

Question number 3: Do you think Jesus drank fermented wine? and why?

Yes. "For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." Luke 22:18, NIV

Question number 4: Is it wrong for Godly people to drink?

No.

Joe67 · Feb 13, 2010

AzA,

Wherever you have idolatry, when it breeds it brings forth philosophy.

Some children curse their parents.

The sword that guards the gate to life turns every which way.

If you restrict calories, the flesh loses the desire and energy to breed.

There is no fermentation without calories/sugar and bacteria/yeast. The sugar molecule is converted as it breeds with the bacteria/yeast. The bacteria dies and falls to the bottom, while the carbon dioxide is released from the mixture. Just like the drones in the beehive, and the worker bee when he stings in battle. Also like man when he dies. The body falls to the bottom/hell, and the spirit rises up/heaven and returns to God who gave it.

Joe
Joe

AzA · Feb 13, 2010

Alcoholic drinking was part of the Israelites' covenant feast system as well as their weddings and other observances, and it was used under specific circumstances. It wasn't about one man downing a beer on his own after work. It was about community celebration. And worship!

I think the shift in our society towards alcohol use as a private affair rather than a social one, and as a means for escapism rather than as a vehicle for celebration and bonding --- that's worth taking another look at. Those are the greater harms from my perspective.

Last year or so I had read an article looking at the changes in alcohol use in England after local governments started limiting the hours that bars could operate there. The aim had been to reduce the drunk-crime rate and discourage youth loitering. What actually happened was that people got sloshed at the bars, and then went home and got more sloshed. As alcohol prices rose (so that the government could bring in more revenue), people lowered their bar time even more, bought cheaper alcohol to drink at home, and the sociologists found that dependency rates are going up, especially among young women -- the last group that they expected to be affected. The speculation is that because people are drinking privately a lot more, they are losing the checks/balances that one gets from drinking around others and in public. No one to say "Hey love, that's enough now."

I think there are more things in play here than just to-drink or not-to-drink.

AzA · Feb 13, 2010

Joe67 said:
If you restrict calories, the flesh loses the desire and energy to breed.

I've experienced that; one of the cautions I was given when I left home the second time is to watch my diet. Thought work can be more consumptive than it seems.

There is no fermentation without calories/sugar and bacteria/yeast. The sugar molecule is converted as it breeds with the bacteria/yeast. The bacteria dies and falls to the bottom, while the carbon dioxide is released from the mixture.

Sure. Did you think I was "against" fermentation?
Be assured.

StormyOne · Feb 13, 2010

AzA said:
They aren't better at all. They're just unrestricted.

But for benefits: Coke is a great drain cleaner. So is vinegar and baking soda. Somehow, since I started using them as cleaning products I've been disinclined to consume them for kicks.

That said, a small quantity of coke (30ml or so) is useful as a stomach settler. I haven't parsed out whether that's because of the caffeine or because of another of its many chemicals. But I find that root ginger tea is even more effective.

For full disclosure, I stopped drinking fizzy drinks on a regular in high school when I only got so much money a week and discovered that bringing a bottle of water to school every day saved me a ton of pennies.

Isaiah 66 is an argument about idolatry, not nutrition or festivals.

poor Coke.... its reputation is being besmirched....lol

I do like a Coke every now and again, or Root Beer, and sometimes even Vernon's Ginger Ale... however being in the south let me say that the beverage of choice is Sweet Tea... that would be Iced Sweet Tea, of course most places know automatically and would never think of serving sweet tea without ice....

While I rarely drink, I think in moderation it is acceptable.... as are some other things... all this talk of food and drink has awakened a craving for steak.... hmmmmm

AzA · Feb 13, 2010

StormyOne said:
poor Coke.... its reputation is being besmirched....lol

LOL!

StormyOne said:
all this talk of food and drink has awakened a craving for steak.... hmmmmm

You can hardly blame this thread for that... isn't tomorrow BBQ Day?

Hey... you might appreciate this quote from Martin Luther:

Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object that is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky?

He was trying to calm down people who were mad about religious art...

Joe67 · Feb 13, 2010

AzA said:
I've experienced that; one of the cautions I was given when I left home the second time is to watch my diet. Thought work can be more consumptive than it seems.

Sure. Did you think I was "against" fermentation?
Be assured.

AzA,

My post was in response to the Isaiah 66 thought of your post where you said Isaiah 66 was concerning idolatry.

The idolatry is like the bacteria/yeast in the fermentation process. The philosophy is like the sugar. Their interaction can end with alcohol, it can end with vinegar or a sugar lock-up whereby fermentation ceases. It is an interesting study, the work of wine and beer making.

The best results are through patient steady methods with the least amount of added sugar and yeast.

Joe

AzA · Feb 13, 2010

I see...

Well, I respect the chemistry behind all kinds of brewing. A friend makes award-winning mead, and so I know it's intense work.

Joe67 · Feb 13, 2010

It is my understanding that wine can only ferment to the level of 12%. But if and when it reaches that level of alcohol content then it can become sealed against corruption from the outside.

Also it is my understanding that there are just a few varieties of grapes that can rise to that level of alcohol content without adding some form of sugar and/or some form of bacteria/yeast. The natural bacteria is just underneath the skin. You can smell the sugar in the grape when it is ripe enough for its sugar to be fully developed. It takes the ripening power of the later sunlight that develops the sugar to its fullness.

These are wonderful object lessons of the law and faith and grace that brings salvation that is in our God and his Annointed One. Salvation is of the Jews, and all families/nations/churches/religions of the earth has and is and will be blessed in Jesus of Nazareth.

Prov 9:1-5
1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3 She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
KJV

Joe

Byfaithalone1 · Feb 15, 2010

k4c said:
I have to learn not to reply to your comments because you have no desire for truth.

2 Timothy 3:7 These people are "always learning,'' but they are never able to come to truth.

K4C,

You might try being less committed to the outcome of these discussions and come to realize that there is value in the give and take--even if the person with whom you dialogue doesn't reach the same conclusions. If you were successful in this effort, you might actually come to enjoy posting here.

God bless!

BFA

kenblaster5000 · Feb 15, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
K4C,

You might try being less committed to the outcome of these discussions and come to realize that there is value in the give and take--even if the person with whom you dialogue doesn't reach the same conclusions. If you were successful in this effort, you might actually come to enjoy posting here.

God bless!

BFA

In some ways there is to be no give and take. This is called compromise. We should love truth and not live to please men, but God. I would rather suffer persecution for the truth, than to believe in a lie for peace sake and to save face. Be blessed.

AzA · Feb 15, 2010

kenblaster5000 said:
In some ways there is to be no give and take. This is called compromise. We should love truth and not live to please men, but God. I would rather suffer persecution for the truth, than to believe in a lie for peace sake and to save face. Be blessed.

Not sure what this has to do with having a healthy discussion.
Dialogue is not about conversion.
You don't have to believe anything you don't want to.

Avonia · Feb 15, 2010

AzA said:
You don't have to believe anything you don't want to.

Is it even possible to believe anything you don't want to?

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