Agnosticism

Allah swt says that those who believe in the unity and oneness of God as much as the weight of an atom, shall not spend eternity in Hell (i.e. they will get out eventually)

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So does that include me?
What about trinitarian Christians (Christians believe in one God, even if it doesn't make sense to you or I, they only believe in one God) and Jews? Deists?

My beliefs are a mix of Deism, Agnosticism and Universalism. In other words, we can learn much about God through nature, there are some things we can never know for sure and all religions/philosophies have some truth to them.

Well, you do have a point. Stating that we can't know is the most honest and correct thing. However, it is sometimes worth going out and trying to find something concrete to believe in.

moogoob said:

My beliefs are a mix of Deism, Agnosticism and Universalism. In other words, we can learn much about God through nature, there are some things we can never know for sure and all religions/philosophies have some truth to them.

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Nice.
I admire Deism very much, but I'm more inclined to Theism (if God could answer prayer and there was more belief in an afterlife, Deism would probably be right up my alley)

InnocentOdion said:

So does that include me?
What about trinitarian Christians (Christians believe in one God, even if it doesn't make sense to you or I, they only believe in one God) and Jews? Deists?

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that was my own thought .... it might only apply to muslims with doubts and very tiny belief in Allah swt. i need to check it out further. i would love to believe it is more general beyond muslims, becuase it is depressing sometimes to think of the billions that die without believing in islam. and thinking of Allah's great mercy, those who have a tiny amount of faith in him (as revealed in Quran) but without being muslims spend eternity in hell and then get out. that is i make a distinction between eternity (very long unimaginable time) and eternal eternity (never get out of hell).

when i said believe in one God, I meant believe in Allah swt as revealed in Islam. that is he is unique and one and has not sons, daughters, wife, father, partners, etc. christians belive in three as one and one as three. that is not what i mean.

i need to check it out further.

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Please tell me your findings.

i would love to believe it is more general beyond muslims, becuase it is depressing sometimes to think of the billions that die without believing in islam.

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Yeah, I felt the same in Christianity. It seemed strange to think people would die and it's their fault. I don't think God would mind?

and thinking of Allah's great mercy, those who have a tiny amount of faith in him (as revealed in Quran) but without being muslims spend eternity in hell and then get out. that is i make a distinction between eternity (very long unimaginable time) and eternal eternity (never get out of hell).

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I prefer "ages", but I understand what you mean. I however find it strange that God would send anyone to hell for ever. For ever is a very long time.. surely if God is merciful, hell cannot be for ever? I could understand eternal death, but not eternal fire.

when i said believe in one God, I meant believe in Allah swt as revealed in Islam. that is he is unique and one and has not sons, daughters, wife, father, partners, etc. christians belive in three as one and one as three. that is not what i mean.

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Christians don't believe God has a son, so to speak. Only because Jesus has no father is God his father, but they see Jesus as the God (or the eternal God manifest in human form), not a god (confusing, I know). I believe the term 'son of God' means prophet, or righteous man. So in a way, I think all are sons and daughters of God, but this does not mean I think God has children, only we are close to Him and he cares about us. I however, believe in only one Supreme God (all other 'gods' are just the same God (or angels, I'm not sure yet) but humans have seen God in different ways, sometimes people just can't connect to an unknowable God).

Think I'm safe?

InnocentOdion said:

Please tell me your findings.

Yeah, I felt the same in Christianity. It seemed strange to think people would die and it's their fault. I don't think God would mind?

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The thought process for me (muslim) is as follows:
1) Quran is undoubtably from Allah swt as it was revealed without human alterations
2) Allah swt (along with Hadith of the prophet peace and prayers be upon him) clearly state that there will be eternal hell. And that Allah swt does not do injustice to anybody. And that humans spend eternity in hell as a result of their actions (their fault)
3) My reasoning

• I cannot comprehend people agonizing in hell for eternity
• Allah swt does not do injustice
• People should be accountable for their actions and must bear the fruits of their actions.

4) I must understand that I cannot project the wisdom of Allah swt, the knower of all secrets of life and what justice must be, unto my comprehension which is distorted by desires, weaknesses, bias, and limited knowledge of life and the unknown secrets and mysteries of life --- hence the need for an ageless prophet or unchangeable source of information from Allah swt (unchangeable scripture). in my case, that would be Quran.
5) Finally, I must surrender (therefore the word "Islam") to Allah swt, and accept the situation as is and try to make the best of it. Expecting his great mercy and generocity to supercede his wrath.

===> that is where we disagree to agree because not all humans follow this constructive though process. Many people would search for believing in something that matches their heart desires and what they "feel" (not know) is right.

Christians don't believe God has a son, so to speak. Only because Jesus has no father is God his father, but they see Jesus as the God (or the eternal God manifest in human form), not a god (confusing, I know). I believe the term 'son of God' means prophet, or righteous man. So in a way, I think all are sons and daughters of God, but this does not mean I think God has children, only we are close to Him and he cares about us.

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There are many flavours to trinity. The bottom line is believing that Jesus is a human prophet, no more or less.

I however, believe in only one Supreme God (all other 'gods' are just the same God (or angels, I'm not sure yet) but humans have seen God in different ways, sometimes people just can't connect to an unknowable God).

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According to Islam, Allah swt instilled in us the instinct to know him as he would want us to know him, no more or less. And he sent prophets with scriptures to confirm this and teach the successful path to eternity in heaven (basically being a good human according to Allah swt). Now, human with different desires, weaknesses, expectations, degrees of comprehension and wisdom would creat different concept/understanding of God. That is why prophets and scriptures are important.

Think I'm safe?

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I dont know if you are asking me here to give you the assurance. I am not Allah swt nor a prophet. All I can say is that in Islam, Allah swt says that belief in him is in his hands like flicking a switch. He can make you believe a moment before your death, or make me disbelieve a moment before my death. In Islam, even muslims are not guaranteed heaven and must always keep themselves in check. Imagine a corporation that does not do the annual auditing. Or a governement that does not do the annual budgeting.

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here is one of the hadiths i was refering to

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/093.sbt.html
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 507

interestingly, the hadith talks about those who say "la ilaha illa allah" (there is only one God) and does not talk about those who say "la ilaha illa allah, muhammad rasoul allah" (there is one God, and muhammad is his messenger). off course, by one God it refers to oneness as defined in Quran (God has no manifestations, partners, family, and nothing from this world is like him). i do not know if there are other hadiths somewhere else where it restricts those who say "la ilaha illa allah" to muslims only. that is why i need a muslim scholar who knows most of the hadith to further explain ... keep in mind the concept of approgation in islam. Muahmmad peace and prayers be upon him was not born programmed with Islam, he and his followers lived islam and learned it by experience.
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i am just googling to try to find out more details. i do not know any islamic scholars to get a clearer understanding

InnocentOdion said:

Nice.
I admire Deism very much, but I'm more inclined to Theism (if God could answer prayer and there was more belief in an afterlife, Deism would probably be right up my alley)

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That's why Deism is a belief system of searching. We have no evidence of an afterlife, but that doesn't mean our consciousnesses can't continue somehow beyond this form in a way we can't measure. It's our life's calling to look, search and be open.

MattTheAgnostic said:

The only correct belief system!

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Correction... agnosticism is the only intellectually honest belief system.

InnocentOdion said:

Please tell me your findings.

Yeah, I felt the same in Christianity. It seemed strange to think people would die and it's their fault. I don't think God would mind?

I prefer "ages", but I understand what you mean. I however find it strange that God would send anyone to hell for ever. For ever is a very long time.. surely if God is merciful, hell cannot be for ever? I could understand eternal death, but not eternal fire.


Christians don't believe God has a son, so to speak. Only because Jesus has no father is God his father, but they see Jesus as the God (or the eternal God manifest in human form), not a god (confusing, I know). I believe the term 'son of God' means prophet, or righteous man. So in a way, I think all are sons and daughters of God, but this does not mean I think God has children, only we are close to Him and he cares about us. I however, believe in only one Supreme God (all other 'gods' are just the same God (or angels, I'm not sure yet) but humans have seen God in different ways, sometimes people just can't connect to an unknowable God).

Think I'm safe?

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i listened to a lecture today (mp3) where the lecturer talked about eternity in hell in a brief.

=>the purpose of life is to test humans and be rewarded accordingly .. people are not equal in heaven
=>the length of the test is irrelevant as you can notice that people die at different ages
=>there are people that if they live eternally on earth, they would never believe => they are the one who spend eternity in hell
=>eternity of disbelief is punished by eternity in hell
=> and vice versa ... eternity of belief = eternity in heaven

interestingly, i met online in forums some people who say with all heart that they will never convert to Islam, and that they will do their best to keep islam out of their lives ... now those people look to me like they will never believe even if they live eternally

now this insight is not stated in Quran or hadith. it is the ijtihad (deduction) of some islamic scholar to try to comprehend eternal hell

Osiris said:

Correction... agnosticism is the only intellectually honest belief system.

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I would have to agree with this. I think agnosticism makes more sense. Because in reality, we have no real way of knowing whether God exist. But the problem I have with agnosticism is that it seems to imply that there will never be knowledge as to whether God exists.