AFTER I am saved, then what?

Sherman · Jun 6, 2005

Sherman said:
May I ask another question? ( I just did )

Is there anything after being saved?

Skylark said:
Hi Sherman,

Yes there is! When we say that we are saved by grace, we don't mean that we it is a license to sin. We are to abide in Christ, and live for Him.

Sherman said:
Would it be off topic to ask more specifically how "We are to abide in Christ, and live for Him"?

Sherman

Probably, but it wouldn't be the first off topic comment!

It might make a nice topic for a new thread though.

After someone is saved, then what?

Sherman

CaliforniaKid · Jun 6, 2005

Hi, Sherman. We pretty much follow Jesus' example, obey his commandments, and do the things the Bible tells us to do. We live our lives for the purpose of advancing God's kingdom.

My beef with the Mormon salvation scheme when it comes to works/grace is not that Mormons believe we have to follow the commandments. I think the large majority of Christians would agree with that. My beef is with the implications of the following parable, found in chapter 12 of the Gospel Principles manual (the bolded portion at the bottom is where I have a problem with it):

Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Council of the Twelve gave the following illustration to show how Christs atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part.

Let me tell you a storya parable.

There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt.

He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later.

So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didnt worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important.

The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come.

But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.

Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well.

 I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so, he confessed.

Then, said the creditor, we will exercise the contract, take your possessions and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.

 Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt? the debtor begged. Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?

The creditor replied, Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?

I believed in justice when I signed the contract, the debtor said. It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.

It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty, the creditor replied. That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.

There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other.

 If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy, the debtor pleaded.

 If I do, there will be no justice, was the reply.

Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also?

There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extendedbut it takes someone else. And so it happened this time.

The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer.

 I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.

As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.

And so the creditor agreed.

The mediator turned then to the debtor. If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?

 Oh yes, yes, cried the debtor. You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.

 Then, said the benefactor, you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.

And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was satisfied (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, pp. 7980; or Ensign, May 1977, pp. 5455).

The message here is apparently not that Jesus has paid our debt in full. It is that he has given us an extension. When our debt was about to come due, he refinanced us into a consolidation loan. He still expects us to pay it off. An LDS friend of mine, in explaining this parable to me, said that it means we can continue to work off our debt in the afterlife.

But I believe the message of the Bible, the gospel of grace, teaches that Jesus has paid our debt in full and does not demand repayment. I do good things not because the Savior demands that I pay off my debt to him, but because I have chosen to make him my Lord and I am being transformed by the Holy Spirit into his image.

-CK

skylark1 · Jun 6, 2005

Hi Sherman,

I had intended to respond to you tonight, but I agree so much with what CK wrote that I honestly don't know what I can add to his words.

We are to abide in Christ. We are to seek his presence always through prayer, identify with Him, take up our cross daily and live for Him, following His word and the leading of the Holy Spirit. We are to let our light shine.

Rescued One · Jun 6, 2005

Sherman said:
After someone is saved, then what?

Sherman

If one is saved, he seldom has to ask other humans what comes next.

skylark1 · Jun 6, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
If one is saved, he seldom has to ask other humans what comes next.

Unless maybe they are discussing and comparing beliefs of faiths other than their own.

Rescued One · Jun 6, 2005

skylark1 said:
Unless maybe they are discussing and comparing beliefs of faiths other than their own.

Does Jesus have many sets of doctrines?

When God saves a person, does He leave that person in the dark?

[Bible]Acts 26:18[/Bible]

skylark1 · Jun 6, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
Does Jesus have many sets of doctrines?

When God saves a person, does He leave that person in the dark?

Acts 26:18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

You know that I didn't say or even suggest that Jesus has many sets of doctrines, or that he leaves people in the dark.

Rescued One · Jun 6, 2005

First we are lost:

Then we are found:

[Bible]Psalm 23[/Bible]

Rescued One · Jun 6, 2005

skylark1 said:
You know that I didn't say or even suggest that Jesus has many sets of doctrines, or that he leaves people in the dark.

I'm sorry. But if we are both saved, we are both relying on the same Shepherd to guide us. Aren't we?

I'm not trying to offend or be sarcastic. I just don't know how to say it.

skylark1 · Jun 6, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
I'm sorry. But if we are both saved, we are both relying on the same Shepherd to guide us. Aren't we?

I'm not trying to offend or be sarcastic. I just don't know how to say it.

Who do you mean by "we?"

Rescued One · Jun 6, 2005

skylark1 said:
Who do you mean by "we?"

Everyone who is saved.

skylark1 · Jun 6, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
Everyone who is saved.

Yes, we have the same Shepherd.

Rescued One · Jun 6, 2005

skylark1 said:
Yes, we have the same Shepherd.

(((((skylark1)))))

skylark1 · Jun 7, 2005

Sherman,

I typed the following up to post on a different thread. It was ignored by all there, so I hope that it isn't considered in bad taste to post here as well. It also fits this discussion. I definately get the impression that many LDS think that Orthodox Christians believe in cheap grace. I think that they are mistaken in what we believe. I love the way that Dietrich Bonhoeffer described abiding in Christ as "costly grace." Please forgive me if this is redundant!

Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.

Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because is cost God the life of his Son: "ye were bought at a price," and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear aprice to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.

Imblessed · Jun 7, 2005

the conundrum of Works vs Faith Alone solved:

Our faith is not determined by what we do; It is demonstrated by what we do.

I think that pretty well explains it!

Our pastor last week was discussing the "apparent" contradiction of James and Paul in their discussions on faith. This is how he put it, and it made SO much sense to me that I thought I'd share it here:

Paul's view "We are saved by Faith alone" "We are justified by faith alone"

Paul was fighting against Legalism(salvation by works)
Paul was focusing on the ROOT of Salvation(faith)
Paul was explaining how to KNOW you are a christian

James view "Faith without works is dead" "a person is justified by what he does and not faith alone"

James was fighting agains Liberalism(faith without life change)
James was focusing on the FRUIT of Salvation(works)
James was explaining how to SHOW you are a christian

In closing, James and Paul were not facing each other and fighting about faith and works--it was more like they were back to back fighting against the 2 extremes(liberalism and Legalism--both of which are destroyers of our walk with God)

I like this verse out of Ephesians(written by Paul and agreeing with James)

"For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH--and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God--not by works so that no one can boast. FOR we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO GOOD WORKS, which God has prepared in advance for us to do. ephesians 2:7-10

By Grace Through Faith For Good Works--that sums it up!

In Christ,
windi

gort · Jun 7, 2005

Imblessed quote:
"For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH--and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God--not by works so that no one can boast. FOR we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO GOOD WORKS, which God has prepared in advance for us to do. ephesians 2:7-10

BINGO!!!

To do good works au natural, and not in the flesh to obtain.

To do good works in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.

<><

Tawhano · Jun 7, 2005

What is the definition of saved? Saved as in obtaining salvation? Saved from sin? I for one believe there is a difference.

Sherman · Jun 8, 2005

skylark1 said:
Sherman,

I typed the following up to post on a different thread. It was ignored by all there, so I hope that it isn't considered in bad taste to post here as well. It also fits this discussion. I definately get the impression that many LDS think that Orthodox Christians believe in cheap grace. I think that they are mistaken in what we believe. I love the way that Dietrich Bonhoeffer described abiding in Christ as "costly grace." Please forgive me if this is redundant!
Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.

Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because is cost God the life of his Son: "ye were bought at a price," and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear aprice to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.

I like this. I do not interpret this to mean one is trying to earn salvation or paying back the Savior. Would this process be called santification?

As this LDS scripture points out, as we stand before the Father to be judged, Christ our advocate will plead our cause.

He will not outline a list of all our works and deeds...

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him
4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

But in this scripture it talks about comming unto Christ.
I do not understand others views on santification and Judgment, and would like to discuss them.

Sherman

Zippythepinhead · Jun 9, 2005

Sherman said:
After someone is saved, then what?

Sherman

I plan on hanging out with J Golden Kimball for a while

elman · Jun 10, 2005

Sherman said:
After someone is saved, then what?

Sherman

Salvation is a process. We are in the process of becoming the Kingdom of God.
Heb 12:28-29

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our "God is a consuming fire."
(from New International Version)

Phil 2:12

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
(from New International Version)

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AFTER I am saved, then what?

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In awesome wonder

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

In awesome wonder

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

In awesome wonder

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

In awesome wonder

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

In awesome wonder

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

In awesome wonder

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