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After Gen 6 where does the Bible address either the truth or untruth of science?

Fascinated With God

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If Gen 1-5 should be taken as a science textbook then to be consistent with this hypothesis there should be a pattern of statements throughout the Bible that demonstrate the untruth of science. I don't believe that there is a single verse after Gen 5 that can be construed as contradicting science. So then how do YEC's justify holding Gen 1-5 to such a completely different standard than the entire rest of the Bible?
 

ChetSinger

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How about the resurrection of Christ?
 
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Fascinated With God

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How does that contradict any aspect of science?

There are lots of miracles that defy explanation by science, but I have never heard of even one that in any way suggested that any field of science is invalid the way Literal Genesis theorist constantly argue.
 
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ChetSinger

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How does that contradict any aspect of science?
Because everyone knows it's scientifically impossible to come back to life after being dead three days, that's why. Even being dead an hour is too long, because the brain decays in minutes.

Ask any doctor. They're the scientific experts. The resurrection of Christ flies in the face of science.
 
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Fascinated With God

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Because everyone knows it's scientifically impossible to come back to life after being dead three days
Today, yes, but our technology is brutally primitive, it is hardly a reflection on what is ultimately possible.

...that's why. Even being dead an hour is too long, because the brain decays in minutes.

Ask any doctor. They're the scientific experts. The resurrection of Christ flies in the face of science.
All you have proven is an unknown. Unknowns do not disprove science. Science is predicated on the existence of endless unknowns, so proving that something is unknown to science does not in anyway contradict it.

Is there even a shred of evidence that we will never be able to revive people after extended periods of times? No, there is none, because it is impossible to prove a negative.

So your argument does not in any way disprove science.
 
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ChetSinger

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Today, yes, but our technology is brutally primitive, it is hardly a reflection on what is ultimately possible.
Now you're no longer appealing to science, but to your own speculation. And if you speculate that we'll revive long-dead people, I'll speculate that we'll build planets in six days.
 
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Greg1234

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Life itself contradicts materialism.
 
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Fascinated With God

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I forgot to mention that the evidence of the Shroud of Turin is overwhelming. The probability that it is an authentic artificat is very high according to science. So science has a definitive answer to this question.

Now you're no longer appealing to science, but to your own speculation. And if you speculate that we'll revive long-dead people, I'll speculate that we'll build planets in six days.
As to appeals to supposed "speculation" about the unknown, clearly you have never read Goedel's Theorem. Goedel's Theorem explicitly stipulates that no matter how complex a system is, there are always statements that can be made with that system that defy the system's ability to come to a result. Only by adding an additional axiom and thus creating a meta-system can the statements be conclusively evaluated, but then that meta-system has holes in it too, statements that can be made with it but can't be evaluated by it. The process is endless, it is provably impossible to have a "complete system" where every statement in that system can be evaluated by that system.

So I made no appeal to speculation what-so-ever when I stated that science is predicated by the existence of an infinite amount of unknowns, and not trivial unknowns but rather, very profound unknowns.

Think about it, if there was an end to them, once you reached that end it would be time to kill yourself. That is not God's design, so God designed a universe with infinite unknowns, which is readily verified by science.






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Calminian

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Boy there's so many wrong statements here it's hard to know where to start. I don't know anyone who claims Genesis 1-5 is a science textbook. I'm not sure where that came from.

But science must affirm methodological uniformity regarding the uniformity of natural laws for obvious reasons. IOW's it can't embrace the traditional concept of miracles put for by hume and flew and other philosophers and theologians. Prediction is the heart of the scientific method, and predictions are based on patterns inferred through observation. But science can never embrace a supernatural addition to natural providence.

Now the Bible, interestingly, is a book about a God of miracles (The true God.). It is a book that teaches and preaches theism from beginning to end—the concept that God not only created the universe but intervenes in it from time to time.

Now to counter this, the OP made the statement that God doesn't do miracles (non-uniform acts) unless there was human to witness it. A theological argument to be sure, but one that can't be supported by the Bible. Regardless, the affirmation of historical supernatural acts of God which transcend science do cause a problem for science in some areas.

Robert B. Fischer, President of the American Scientific Affiliation and Dean of the School of Science and Mathematics, California State College, states, “Nature is rational in the sense that nature is consistent and uniform in total cause-effect relationships.” And for the most part this presupposition is true. Yet the Bible speaks of a God that transcends this uniformity and actually overrides it at times.

Thus we have a small problem. While this scientific assumption is true most of the time, and for that matter the vast majority of the time, it's not always true. There are exceptions. Miracles do exist.

Now science is very valuable for the fact the uniformity of the laws of nature are true the vast majority of the time. But, if we believe the Genesis account of creation, we know this is for certain one area where this scientific presupposition was not true.
 
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Fascinated With God

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But science must affirm methodological uniformity regarding the uniformity of natural laws for obvious reasons.
This is not a universal principle, contrary to your misunderstanding. Evolution isn't uniform at all. Most of the time there is random proliferation of diversity in a species with low selective pressures and little evolutionary progress. Most evolutionary progress takes place during catastrophic events. It is much like the way rivers change their course. It isn't gradual, it happens only during floods.

IOW's it can't embrace the traditional concept of miracles put for by hume
Hume denied the existence of any miracles. Once again you are making a false connection between Hume and science, which you so vociferously denied having done in another thread (and then insulted me for making this claim about you that you just repeated).

Prediction is the heart of the scientific method, and predictions are based on patterns inferred through observation.
Thomas Kuhn distingushed "ordinary" science from "revolutionary" science, and you are describing ordinary science exclusively. These things play no role in revolutionary science that actually leads to new discoveries, the real core of science. Not that ordinary science isn't important, but on it's own it is utterly useless.

But science can never embrace a supernatural addition to natural providence.
Then why hasn't this prevented scientists from studying the Shroud of Turin and coming to the conclusion that there is a high likelihood it is authentic?


This is not accurate. I stated that God does everything for a purpose and that since He has no needs, most of those purposes are for us. This in no way precludes the possibility of preperation work done well before the birth of the people it is done for. So once again, Calminian's characterization of my views is distorted.

A theological argument to be sure, but one that can't be supported by the Bible.
No wonder since you made it up out of your own imagination.

God is part of cause and effect too. In Hinduism God is sometimes called the Great Cause. The supposed distinction between God and cause and effect is meaningless.

Thus we have a small problem. While this scientific assumption is true most of the time, and for that matter the vast majority of the time, it's not always true. There are exceptions. Miracles do exist.
How many have you experienced? Miracles are mostly personal experiences. Not all the time of course, I can describe several that weren't, but the first kind of miracle most people are going to experience is a personal experience.








If that is so then there should be a consistent pattern of Biblical passages after Gen 5 that contradict science. But you read the OP already, so clearly you have ZERO examples to offer.






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ChetSinger

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If that is so then there should be a consistent pattern of Biblical passages after Gen 5 that contradict science. But you read the OP already, so clearly you have ZERO examples to offer.
What do you mean by 'contradict science'?

First, let's get some definitions in order so we're both on the same page. Do you agree with me that the practice of science is the practice of the scientific method, and scientific results are results obtained via the scientific method?
 
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Fascinated With God

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No, that only describes ordinary science. The bulk of advancement in science comes from revolutionary science, for which there is no methodical approach.

Thomas Kuhn was difficult and dull reading, but the concepts stay with you a lifetime.
 
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ChetSinger

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No, that only describes ordinary science. The bulk of advancement in science comes from revolutionary science, for which there is no methodical approach.

Thomas Kuhn was difficult and dull reading, but the concepts stay with you a lifetime.
If we don't agree that the practice of science is the practice of the scientific method, then I see no point in participating further. Cheers.
 
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Calminian

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This is not a universal principle, contrary to your misunderstanding.

Yes, the uniformity of natural laws is a universal principal of science. It has to be. Apples always fall from trees. They don't just randomly float up to the sky unpredictably, in identical circumstances. I don't think you're following the basic point I'm making.


And again, we're getting to this weird point again where you claim I confused Hume with science. I have no idea what you are talking about, and never implied such a thing. Hume merely came up with a definition of miracles that is often cited and used, so everyone one can understand the sense in which I'm using the term. Honestly I just don't think you're able to follow this very simple concept.


Yes, I'm speaking about actual science in the sense of the scientific method.

Then why hasn't this prevented scientists from studying the Shroud of Turin and coming to the conclusion that there is a high likelihood it is authentic?

There's no reason to shelf science. It is a very useful tool, even in the origins debate. But it's not the primary tool. But certainly it has it's applications. For instance, science can never falsify or verify a miracle like the Resurrection, but it can give us insights into events at the cross such as the soldier piercing Jesus' side and blood and water coming out. This verified Jesus was indeed dead, and therefore undermines theories about him only appearing dead on the cross.

But ultimately the miracle of the resurrection can never be confirmed by science or predicted by science, or identified in the past by science by observing the body afterward. Only testimony can verify such an unscientific event, such as the corroborative accounts in the gospels.


We both know you made this point earlier. I'm glad to see you have adjusted it. I even challenged you to start a new thread on the topic and you declined. Now you have back peddled significantly.

How many have you experienced? Miracles are mostly personal experiences. Not all the time of course, I can describe several that weren't, but the first kind of miracle most people are going to experience is a personal experience.

Miracles can refer to many things. That's precisely why I use the Hume reference to indicate the type of miracles I'm referring to. It has nothing to do with science. Miracles are a philosophical metaphysical issue.

If that is so then there should be a consistent pattern of Biblical passages after Gen 5 that contradict science. But you read the OP already, so clearly you have ZERO examples to offer.

Miracles are contradictions of science. There are numerous miracles indicated after Genesis five all the way to the book of Revelations. The flood itself was not a natural event, but one brought on by man's sin (again using humeite understanding of miracles.)

I honestly don't think anyone is following the point you are attempting to make. Theism is an undeniable theme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
 
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Fascinated With God

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If we don't agree that the practice of science is the practice of the scientific method, then I see no point in participating further. Cheers.
Paradigm shifts are a part of the scientific method, but they are not methodical in the sense of being incremental, as you meant by the term.

I'm surprised that you are so unfamiliar with Kuhn, his work was commissioned by the physicists that discover Quantum Theory in an effort to explain what they had gone through, which was so clearly completely unlike the conduct of normal science as they were accustomed to.

As a physicist you can't have any meaningful understanding of the history of physics without having read The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions. It is such a seminal work that even today, 60 years later, it comes up as the top suggestion on Google after typing just "The Str".

=================================================

Paradigm shifts happen all at once, they do not happen incrementally. The classic example is of students studying Relativity. They study the same material over and over without being able to get it, when suddenly out of the blue it l makes sense all at once. It is a sudden jump in consciousness, not an incremental progress.

Thus Kuhn overtly rejected Newton's notion that "we stand on the shoulders of giants". He rejected the notion as a whole of science as being a fundamentally incremental process.






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Fascinated With God

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For instance, science can never falsify or verify a miracle like the Resurrection.
The authenticity of the Shroud verifies that something miraculous happened. They can't say exactly what happened, but no one knows exactly what an electron is either. So your point is moot.

If a resurrection happened today in a lab while they were prepared and waiting for it to happen do you really think that they would not be able to find a whole host of data indicating that something miraculous happened?

Repeating a false statement doesn't make it less false.

We both know you made this point earlier. I'm glad to see you have adjusted it. I even challenged you to start a new thread on the topic and you declined. Now you have back peddled significantly.
You just LOVE these purely ad hominem comments. I'm not going to get into mud slinging with you again over flame bait like this.

Miracles can refer to many things. That's precisely why I use the Hume reference to indicate the type of miracles I'm referring to. It has nothing to do with science. Miracles are a philosophical metaphysical issue.
That is a totally arbitrary distinction. You just assume that the spiritual and science are antithetical, which is to assume that God created a universe at war with itself.

Miracles are contradictions of science.
No they aren't. Scientists can't predict earth quakes either, but that doesn't mean that earth quakes are a contradiction to science. You are just making an arbitrary distinction.

There are numerous miracles indicated after Genesis five all the way to the book of Revelations. The flood itself was not a natural event, but one brought on by man's sin (again using humeite understanding of miracles.)
What if God had already set up the comet to hit Earth eons before by seemingly natural forces? Would that be less of a miracle in your eyes?

I honestly don't think anyone is following the point you are attempting to make. Theism is an undeniable theme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
Falsely implying that I deny theism in Genesis is another one of your less than perfectly honest statements. You make a lot of these.

God can work miracles over eons as well as in an instant. Your insistence in denying the glory of the miracles that God preformed over eons is a reflection of yourself, not God.



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hedrick

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The question was about Christianity conflicting with science. You could say that miracles conflict. But belief in miracles hasn't generally impeded or even particularly affected science. I believe most Christians think that the world follows rational laws reflecting the nature of God, but that God is free to intervene when he wants. As long as he doesn't intervene very often, it doesn't affect our ability to discover the laws.

Even Noah's flood doesn't actually compromise science. The evidence is against it, but people who take it literally don't believe that the world operates in some weird way such that it will randomly have world-wide floods. It's a miracle. It could become an issue if it caused people to adopt crackpot theories of geology. So far I haven't seen that effect. Normally literalists simply deny the evidence, they don't produce modified versions of geology. (Or maybe I haven't been reading enough web sites run by literalists.)
 
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ChetSinger

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Amen. I don't think it's any accident that science blossomed as it did in Christian Europe and North America.

I've noticed that science-related disagreements are usually about events in the past, not the present. There are no raging debates between Christians and others regarding subjects like Boyle's Gas Law or semiconductor physics.
 
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Fascinated With God

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Even Noah's flood doesn't actually compromise science.
Not even remotely.

The evidence is against it
No it isn't. In addition to flood myths being universal to all ancient cultures there is evidence of a potentially recent huge comet impact in the Indian Ocean, the place where flood myths are most instense. Eighteen mile wide Burckle_Crater would have sent enough vapor into the upper atmosphere to produce weeks of torrential rain around the world.

SkyWriting disagrees with you:

 
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