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Who introduced the theory of a trinity?Was it God or man? It was in extreme tension at the time of Arius, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit it started at Nicea to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.he-man,
1. To get just metaphorical in 1 Corinthians 10 would have to be because Christ was not Christ in the old testament for he was not born yet to the virgin Mary.
Who introduced the theory of a trinity?Was it God or man? It was in extreme tension at the time of Arius, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit it started at Nicea to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.he-man,
1. To get just metaphorical in 1 Corinthians 10 would have to be because Christ was not Christ in the old testament for he was not born yet to the virgin Mary.
Shame on you. ] THE TRIUNE GOD Edmond Fortman. (I own the book and right to publish it. THANK YOU.your history seems very intricately quoted, and possibly counterfeited as someone elses (take as your own, I presume)?
I apologize, if your stuff is not plaigerized.
Who introduced the theory of a trinity?Was it God or man? It was in extreme tension at the time of Arius, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit it started at Nicea to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.
The Council of Nicea had merely declared, 'And we believe in the Holy Spirit.' Lateran IV in 1215 was the first ecumenical council to define that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, and in its Trinitarian declarations it went well beyond Nicea I and Constantinople I
Which is rejected by true believers like Mt 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
In the 15th century Florence, another ecumenical and reunion council, amplified the declarations of Lateran N and Lyons II by declaring that the patristic doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father through the Son is substantially equivalent to the Filioque; by defining that the Filioque had been lawfully added to the Creed.
This last point is extremely important for it represented the explicational climax of a long patristic and theological reflection on the root of distinction in the one simple God.
We do not intend to seek in the Old Testament and in the New Testament what is not there, a formal statement of Trinitarian doctrine. [
PART ONE The Biblical Witness to God
The Council of Nicea was over, but many years would pass before the Nicene Creed would be fully established and accepted. Arianism, although driven underground, was far from dead. CHAPTER FIVE
Athanasius, met intense opposition from the Arians and was banished from his see five times.
. His Letter concerning the Decrees of the Council of Nicea (hereafter De decret.) described the proceedings at Nicea and defended the Council's use of non-Biblical terms. The Post-Nicene Phase
It is clear that they has to resort to non-biblical terms to come up with a false Trinity. Athanasius, met intense opposition from the Arians and was banished from his see five times.he-man,
You are too wrapped in supposedly some one formulating a doctrine and who called it the doctrine.
I have already stated the position in the bible of compound unity versus dualism and oneness. There are plenty of formulations such as the rapture etc. They don't hold water and neither does the argument of Nicea and the creed and Arianism, etc. If you want to talk scripture fine, I'll be waiting. Jerry kelso
It is clear that they has to resort to non-biblical terms to come up with a false Trinity. Athanasius, met intense opposition from the Arians and was banished from his see five times.
His Letter concerning the Decrees of the Council of Nicea (hereafter De decret.) described the proceedings at Nicea and defended the Council's use of non-Biblical terms. The Triune God; The Post-Nicene Phase
So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.[/size][/b]
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.Jesus took on the nature of man and not angels. If he wasn't neither man or angels of what order was he when he came to earth? He couldn't have been angels for he refused to take the nature of angels on. He couldn't have been man because he took on his nature which means he didn't have this nature before and obviously the Holy Spirit conceived him.
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:You can quote what you believe the subjection scriptures are such as in Corinthians but it doesn't fit all the other side of contexts that show Christ was divine and a part of the Godhead and was and is not and never will be inferior.
Tell me why do you want to believe that Christ is not deity and why is it beneficial and how and why do you think a mortal man could be a mediator between God and man just because he was made sinless. Jerry Kelso
Great, so you agree with me that there is no Co-equal Trinity? At times in the Synoptics this Son ship of Jesus involves some subordination of Jesus to the Father. There were things that the Son did not know: 'But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' (Mk 13.32).he-man,I am not interested in non biblical terms as I am in what the biblical contexts show.
You have the wrong church. Christians are not paganistic. Fortman's entire statement which includes: “They [NT writers] give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons.he-man
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all
Fortman The "Triune God"
Great, so you agree with me that there is no Co-equal Trinity? At times in the Synoptics this Son ship of Jesus involves some subordination of Jesus to the Father. There were things that the Son did not know: 'But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' (Mk 13.32).
This is only because the Son had assumed a human nature and therefore was, as Jesus of Nazareth, affected by it.Great, so you agree with me that there is no Co-equal Trinity? At times in the Synoptics this Son ship of Jesus involves some subordination of Jesus to the Father. There were things that the Son did not know: 'But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' (Mk 13.32).
You have the wrong church. Christians are not paganistic. Fortman's entire statement which includes: “They [NT writers] give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons.
It is true that the Christian faith was not initially Trinitarian.
Again in Mark we hear Jesus saying: 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone' (10.18).
there is only ‘One who is Good’, it becomes clear that Paul views Christ both as subordinate and only to be similar to God the Father which is fulfilled in the purpose of the visible creation that results from it (Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. )
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
And again, 1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
At times in the Synoptics this Son ship of Jesus involves some subordination of Jesus to the Father. There were things that the Son did not know: 'But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' (Mk 13.32).
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
I know that the Holy Spirit is God of the Triune God, and I believe that truth, BUT...
Nowhere in the Bible does it say to worship the Holy Spirit nor honor the Holy Spirit in worship, and I believe the reasons why is that God's glory rests in the Son,
...
There are no scripture supporting the practise of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. There are scripture testifying to the Holy Spirit being of the Triune God, but it is not the deity of the Holy Spirit that is in question, but the will of the Father in how Jesus has testified specifically how we are to honor the Father and that is by only honoring the Son. There is no other way to do this in worship.
You seem to forget the the Holy Spirit did not descend upon him until his baptism. He was not exalted until AFTER his resurrection. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.1 Corinthians 15:46 is no context to Jesus, the son of God, born of a virgin, made under the law which was conceived by the Holy Spirit. No man is to be worshiped and no man can be a savior in the capacity of the Redeemer Jesus Christ and no man can forgive sins. Jesus had to be sinless and not born of a corrupt and sinless seed and he was, but no mortal man can forgive sins and no mortal man's blood is worthy of saving one from their sin.
I beg to disagree. Origen rejected the two-stage theory of the Apologists and maintained the eternal generation of the Son. But to reconcile this with a strict monotheism, he resorted to another philosophical framework, a Platonic hierarchical framework, and ended up by making the Son and the Holy Spirit not precisely creatures but 'diminished gods,' inferior to the Father who alone was God in the strict sense. The Post-Nicene PhaseThe kenosis of Christ is based on the truth of him laying aside his divine attributes. He had the Spirit without measure as Matthew said and he had to learn things like a man and feel the way a man does and what he goes through to identify with man. His subjection to the father was not about being inferior but in his role in the plan of redemption. We are to be subject to Christ and Christ is subject to the father but not as inferior.
The idea of a co-equal Trinity, however, offers a reasonable means of expressing the inexpressible;but it must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word " Trinity" appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.[/u]The bible also says that men and women are to be in subjection to each other. If Christ is to be in subjection to the father at all then your argument holds no water for you said the son only is subjected to the father and that the father is not subject to the son at all or at least that seems to be the implication because Christadelphians do believe in subjection in the context of being inferior.
If he were not an angel, the only thing left is a creature, that is man. You seem to forget the the Holy Spirit did not descend upon him until his baptism. He was not exalted until AFTER his resurrection. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.Hebrews said he took on the nature of man and not angels which means he was not an angel or a mortal man otherwise the phrase would be meaningless.
Just a reminder, humans are mortal and do not pre-exist. Christ did not pre-exist as an entity but only as the foundation for the future plan of God, which God created as a creature and then bestowed upon him the Holy Spirit after Baptism and RESSURECTION.In the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word was with God. Before Abraham was I am. The spiritual rock they drank out of. Yahweh was salvation and Jesus is salvation. Do you really think that he wasn't Yahweh in the old testament? Do you really think he was in the old testament or before the foundations and upheld battles for Israel and talked to the leaders etc. and that he was not really there as a real entity or that it was because of the glory of his name?
Huh? I was not born in 1848. I did not pre-exist. Why, Are you a Christadelphian? I do consider myself as 'a brother of Christ' but I do not belong to any organized religion. I am a representative of the teachings of Christ and believe in the resurrection, the return of Christ to Earth, and in the Kingdom of God to be established here on earth at his second coming.Are you a Christadelphian? I am curious.
see all the above. But I invite you to partake and to 'Listen carefully to Me'.What is your motive or reason that you believe that Christ is human. Do you have scripture to show or imply some logic that a sinless mortal man could have died for humans and forgive sins and be the Savior of the world?
he-man" said:Just a reminder, humans are mortal and do not pre-exist. Christ did not pre-exist as an entity but only as the foundation for the future plan of God, which God created as a creature and then bestowed upon him the Holy Spirit after Baptism and RESSURECTION....I do consider myself as 'a brother of Christ' but I do not belong to any organized religion.
That was not me who started a discussion on JW's, Christadelphians, etc. try jerry kelso said: ↑"*Please note: this forum does not allow discussion or debate of Mormon or Jehovah's Witness religious beliefs. Please discuss Mormonism and/or Jehovah's Witness beliefs in the Christianity and World Religions forum."
Duly noted...but it really was the "not allow...debate" part of the rule that I was thinking of there, not who started it or first mentioned something.That was not me who started a discussion on JW's, Christadelphians, etc. try JerryKelso!
Act 4:7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?” 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.I agree true believers are not paganistic.. Jerry kelso
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