Active euthanasia, right or wrong?

Active euthanasia, right or wrong? So, what do you think and believe?

For the record. I am pro. I have a serious heart illness and the bad thing is that if it gets to worse, and medical science cannot help me anymore, I will slowly suffocate. So, I hope that if I want to go to God, and I need help to go home, I hope someone is there for me to help me end my life....this earthly life. Hopefully that will not happen soon....I want to become old and wrinkly!

I already made a deal with hubs that if my brain is damaged terribly and I am not capable to even think for my self.....he has to pull the plug, so to speak. I' rather have an injection that puts me gently to sleep (like they do at the vet....letting an animal suffer is cruel....so why let a human being suffer?)

That is my POV.....and it was when I was an atheist....than agnost, it hasn't changed because I am a Christian right now...To me it's about the quality of life, not the quantity...

(Passive means stopping treatment......active is when you get injected and die immediately.

So, what is your POV?

Sorry for the typo's in the poll.....

I'm pro, for pretty much the same reasons that you stated.

The only *real* objection that I agree with is that legal acceptance of active euthanasia entails a danger of abuse: callous heirs disposing of their sick and elderly to get a grab at their inheritance and stuff like that.

But that's not something that cannot be prevented, of course. With sufficient legal safeguards, such abuse should become negligible.

Hi all!

So far, I'm the only person who has voted against. As an orthodox Jew, I must oppose euthanasia. I'm not a rabbi but as far as I know while a dying person need not be hooked up to various life-support machinery, one hooked up, they may not be removed. A person may never be deprived of oxygen, hydration or food as these are considered necessities of life, not medical treatment. What Jack Kevorkian used to do is, in our view, cold-blooded murder/suicide.

Dr. Daniel Eisenberg (a noted orthodox Jewish medical ethicist) writes:

(...).

But it is a major leap to go from terminal illness to valueless life. To debate and discuss how aggressively to treat a patient with an incurable disease is healthy. To discuss ending the lives of people because we see no value in their continued existence is reprehensible.

(...).

Genocide does not start with overt murder; it starts with devaluing the lives of some unwanted or unpopular members of society and follows a downward spiral to depravity. Often, as in the case of Nazi Germany, the first group to be disposed of is the disabled, particularly the mentally handicapped. The arguments for euthanasia are always euphemistic and always couched in language suggesting that we are killing the individual for their own good. We never propose murder, we propose "mercy-killing" and allowing the patient to "rest." We wish to end the suffering of people who might not be experiencing any pain whatsoever.

(...).

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The above are excerpts from an article Dr. Eisenberg wrote this past March entitled Virtually Brain Dead (
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/-Virtually_Brain_Dead-.asp) in which he, inter alia, discusses a recent, and shocking, case from Boston. It is not short and it reads slowly but it is very good (I think) and expresses orthodox Jewish concerns very well, as does his previous article The Death of Terri Schiavo: An Epilogue (http://www.aish.com/societyWork/society/The_Death_of_Terri_Schiavo_An_Epilogue.asp).

This http://www.notdeadyet.org/ is a very interesting organization: Disabled (many severely) and ill (many profoundly, even terminally) people who strongly opose the "right-to-die" movement and are neither shy nor taciturn about it.

Be well!

ssv

I pretty much agree with Jane_the_Bane; an individual who is terminally ill and suffering should be able to make the determination for him- or herself when and how his/her life should end, with the caveat that protections must be in place to help ensure that such measures are not abused and that euthanasia is truly the patient's wish.

I have a question for the folks who think that euthanasia is wrong (which, so far on this thread, consists only of stillsmallvoice, but presumably there are other people around here who think similarly). It was mentioned in the OP that we euthanize animals who are terminally-ill or -injured and are suffering, and that this is considered humane and merciful. Do you feel that this euthanasia is wrong, that it should be considered animal-murder or cruelty, or that it devalues the life of the animal?

Hi TooCurious!

TooCurious said:

I have a question for the folks who think that euthanasia is wrong (which, so far on this thread, consists only of stillsmallvoice, but presumably there are other people around here who think similarly). It was mentioned in the OP that we euthanize animals who are terminally-ill or -injured and are suffering, and that this is considered humane and merciful. Do you feel that this euthanasia is wrong, that it should be considered animal-murder or cruelty, or that it devalues the life of the animal?

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You're equating animals & people? With all due respect (really! I'm not trying to be flip or a smart - ass here ; I do respect your views even if I do not share them), you're comparing apples & rocks. What applies to animals in this case simply does not apply to people.

Are you a member of PETA? (I subscribe to the views of http://www.pro-test.org.uk/).

Be well!

ssv

stillsmallvoice said:

Hi TooCurious!

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Hi!

stillsmallvoice said:

You're equating animals & people? With all due respect (really! I'm not trying to be flip or a smart-ass here ; I do respect your views even if I do not share them),

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Thanks, and no offense taken. Please be assured that I also respect your views, even if I disagree with them.

stillsmallvoice said:

you're comparing apples & rocks. What applies to animals in this case simply does not apply to people.

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I have to disagree. The life of a living, sentient creature that can suffer and feel pain is just that, whether that creature is human or another animal. It is a matter of self-interest to place the life of a human in higher importance than the life of another animal, and when the two are in opposition, I agree that such self-interest is legitimate. Still, I hold the position that the lives of animals are worthy of moral consideration, and if euthanasia can be considered to "devalue" human life, I have to wonder why it doesn't similarly devalue animal life. How can it degrade in one case, yet be humane and merciful in another? Both humans and other animals live, feel, and suffer.

How and why would the same standards not apply? I honestly don't understand the reasoning, and am interested, if you're willing to explain.

stillsmallvoice said:

Are you a member of PETA? (I subscribe to the views of http://www.pro-test.org.uk/).

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No, I'm not a member of PETA, and I think that many of the things they do are excessive. I expressed my opinions on animal welfare here: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=24291226#post24291226 and here: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=24316354#post24316354

stillsmallvoice said:

Be well!

ssv

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Thank you, and likewise.

I voted that it depends on the situation. I suppose I'm only really in favour of active euthanasia, because I believe human choice to be supremely important. It's an end to incredible pain and suffering, and while I have upmost respect for people who choose to go through that rather than end their lives, nobody should have to go through it.
Finally, could I just say it's really refreshing to see how nice the two sides of this debate are being to eachother! Too often, debates end up as slanging matches with insults being thrown about. It's nice to see that a debate can be so civilised!

Suicide is self murder, whatever reason it is used for. Those that actively engage in it, at their own hand or a doctors will have to explain it to God.

NothingButTheBlood said:

Suicide is self murder, whatever reason it is used for. Those that actively engage in it, at their own hand or a doctors will have to explain it to God.

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Will God be similarly expected to explain why he let the person get terminal cancer or severe brain damage or whatever affliction involving prolonged suffering without hope of recovery, that made the person want to end his/her life?

belladonic-haze said:

Active euthanasia, right or wrong? So, what do you think and believe?

For the record. I am pro. I have a serious heart illness and the bad thing is that if it gets to worse, and medical science cannot help me anymore, I will slowly suffocate. So, I hope that if I want to go to God, and I need help to go home, I hope someone is there for me to help me end my life....this earthly life. Hopefully that will not happen soon....I want to become old and wrinkly!

I already made a deal with hubs that if my brain is damaged terribly and I am not capable to even think for my self.....he has to pull the plug, so to speak. I' rather have an injection that puts me gently to sleep (like they do at the vet....letting an animal suffer is cruel....so why let a human being suffer?)

That is my POV.....and it was when I was an atheist....than agnost, it hasn't changed because I am a Christian right now...To me it's about the quality of life, not the quantity...

(Passive means stopping treatment......active is when you get injected and die immediately.

So, what is your POV?

Sorry for the typo's in the poll.....

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It depends on the case..
Initial choice if there isn't any pain and God has not decided to heal or take that person yet, to keep them alive.
However if if resources for that run out or jeapordise others who are alive mentally and relying on those funds, and no one else decides to support the life of that person (person's body more correctly)... then it will be pulling the plug time. If the person seems to be in pain, and no method is helping them to recover then pulling the plug might be considered.
Again this really is a case by case situation sort of thing.

Hi all!

Pogue said:

Finally, could I just say it's really refreshing to see how nice the two sides of this debate are being to eachother! Too often, debates end up as slanging matches with insults being thrown about. It's nice to see that a debate can be so civilised!

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Oh...um...we could be petty & nasty and engage in rant and invective instead of educational give-and-take, I mean if that's what you want.

Life is too short to be rude.

TooCurious said:

The life of a living, sentient creature that can suffer and feel pain is just that, whether that creature is human or another animal.

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I agree that animals can suffer & feel pain and probably meet a dictionary definition of "sentient." However, they cannot make moral choices & do not have consciences like we do. They are certainly not endowed with souls like we are. They are a lower form of life and, guided by the limits & teachings in the Torah (see http://www.jewfaq.org/animals.htm), we are permitted to make use of them, including, if need be, take their lives.

TooCurious said:

if euthanasia can be considered to "devalue" human life, I have to wonder why it doesn't similarly devalue animal life. How can it degrade in one case, yet be humane and merciful in another? Both humans and other animals live, feel, and suffer.

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I would submit that the fact that we both live, feel and suffer is not the issue. We are a fundamentally different order of life and hence operate under different rules.

Be well!

ssv

stillsmallvoice said:

I agree that animals can suffer & feel pain and probably meet a dictionary definition of "sentient."

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Indeed.

stillsmallvoice said:

However, they cannot make moral choices & do not have consciences like we do.

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Neither can infants or the severely mentally disabled, and yet we are expected to treat these in a moral fashion.

stillsmallvoice said:

They are certainly not endowed with souls like we are. They are a lower form of life

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It probably goes without saying that there is scientific basis neither for the existence of souls or the classification of other species as "lower" forms of life. As an atheist, I have no belief that humans were specially created to be "better" or more important than other animals. I can't help but view the distinction as artificial and arbitrary.

stillsmallvoice said:

and, guided by the limits & teachings in the Torah (see http://www.jewfaq.org/animals.htm), we are permitted to make use of them, including, if need be, take their lives.

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I am personally appalled at the idea that animals can be considered mere objects that can be destroyed on a whim. They are living beings with thoughts and emotions, and deserve some consideration and regard from us.

stillsmallvoice said:

I would submit that the fact that we both live, feel and suffer is not the issue. We are a fundamentally different order of life and hence operate under different rules.

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I would submit that this distinction is arbitrary and meaningless, and that the lives of all sentient beings have value.

stillsmallvoice said:

Be well!

ssv

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You too!

NothingButTheBlood said:

Suicide is self murder, whatever reason it is used for. Those that actively engage in it, at their own hand or a doctors will have to explain it to God.

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Well, since I voted choice #1, that would mean that if I had a terminal cancer, life ending disease, wasting away illness and not much time left, pain is too much to bear, its just not worth it to try to exist another day on meds and life support, etc etc, I will have no problem standing before the God that let my body have all that bad stuff happen to it and tell Him why I stopped playing the pain game and said "NO MORE! I am done."

NothingButTheBlood said:

Suicide is self murder, whatever reason it is used for. Those that actively engage in it, at their own hand or a doctors will have to explain it to God.

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I am happy to explain it to God, but God already knows how I feel about it......so, I do not think I need to explain it when I stand before Him.

Anyway, I also believe all life is precious. Too precious to let it suffer. And Eutahnasia is not suicide. It is totally different. It is ending your life on your own terms, without being kept alive by tubes and meds and doctors. It is dying with dignity....without the humiliation of the illness. Like people who have AIDS, they die a very painful and horrible death. Let them die with dignity. And be aware that if you are ill you have loads of strenght and cling to life. You always push the limits of what your borders are about the quality of life. I know that for a fact. 10 years ago I was able to live like anyone else. Today my hubs drives me around in a wheelchair, because I cannot walk long walks anymore. I sometimes can't hardly get out of bed, but I have also experienced a severe depression and the wish to end my life through suicide. That is totally different from euthanasia...... Euthanasia is because you love life, suicide is because you hate it....

I voted for 1 and 2. Although I am against passive euthanasia which can be even more agonizing than the pains of the illness if that is the only one available then so be it. I also voted for 2 because it depends on the situation (excistance of living will) and/or the mental capability of the person.

Euthanasia is NOTHING like suicide, as Bella has already explained. Suicide is a waste of ones life the other is allowing one to go with some dignity.

Belladonic-haze you are in my prayers.

Suicide is the killing of oneself. You can call it something else to make it seem different but it isn't. Both are taking your own life instead of trusting God's plan. You are free to do what you want and make whatever decision you want but killing yourself instead of trusting in what is planned for you is disobient to the Lord.

NothingButTheBlood said:

Suicide is the killing of oneself. You can call it something else to make it seem different but it isn't. Both are taking your own life instead of trusting God's plan. You are free to do what you want and make whatever decision you want but killing yourself instead of trusting in what is planned for you is disobient to the Lord.

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It is not killing yourself. It is leaving this life with dignity and if you have a terminal illness, you will die anyway, but there is no need with the knowledge we have to die painfull. I do not want to suffocate slowly and suffer pain trhoughout my body. God doesn't plan such cruel endings and they have no reason at all...just a result of an illness/disorder.

I am also against passive euthanasia...To me active euthanasia is the only way to leave life dignified.

It is not killing yourself.

Are you dead after wards? Please don't lie about what the definition of suicide is. If you are gonna own it, own it.

It is leaving this life with dignity and if you have a terminal illness, you will die anyway, but there is no need with the knowledge we have to die painfull. I do not want to suffocate slowly and suffer pain trhoughout my body.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

God doesn't plan such cruel endings and they have no reason at all...just a result of an illness/disorder.

Really people die like that all the time. Are you saying people who don't kill themselves are disobeying God? I don't recall Jesus telling the sick to off themselves?

I am also against passive euthanasia...To me active euthanasia is the only way to leave life dignified.

I thought God doesn't do cruel endings. His love and relief is only for those awake enough to ask for it?

I say no life begins without God's blessing and no death happens without His consent, so what "we" do or do not do is of little consquence in THIS regard. We must answer for our decisions/choices/hearts--if the person can "live" (No pun intended) with their decision, so can I.

NothingButTheBlood said:

Are you dead after wards? Please don't lie about what the definition of suicide is. If you are gonna own it, own it.

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I do not lie about suicide. I have hold that knife in my hand.......THAT is completely different from wanting to die peacefully when you have a terminal illness...It means that you will die, no matter what you or medical science tries. So instead of having a body filled with tubes and meds, and not being able to do anything that ads to the quality of life, I'd rather step out before that happens. And believe me...I do everything to change the direction my body is taking me. I even will have a hearttransplant before I choose the only direction we ALL are going to have....dying. We all die....true....May I die in peace, please? And if your dog or cat or other animal gets cancer and the only human way is to give your pet and injection to stop the suffering, why do so if you think that life is in the hands of God alone? Let the animal die the same way you believe is true and the only way......like you want people to die......lying it in the hands of God....

Really people die like that all the time. Are you saying people who don't kill themselves are disobeying God? I don't recall Jesus telling the sick to off themselves?

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Did I ever say that people who do oppose of euthanansia and choose to wait that God takes them away from this eartly life are insane or disobeying God? I never said that..... It's up to the individual and every human being is different and has different looks on life. If they do leave it in the Lord's hands I respect that and I hope and pray that they do not suffer too much and have no pain. Jesus healed people. But being healed also means that you are not afraid to die.....And because people die like that all the time, doesn't mean I have to do that as well......

And yes, I am afraid of pain and of the fact that I will slowly feel life going out me with every single breath that gets weaker and weaker....... I love life too much to let it slip away from me. So much that if I die, I die in peace with myself and my body....

I thought God doesn't do cruel endings. His love and relief is only for those awake enough to ask for it?

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And when did I said that? Are you at all reading my words? Sheesh......do not say things and put words in my mouth I never said. I am talking about me. Me personal. When you have heart faillure and slowly die because your heart gets slowly weaker and you see yourself not getting old and grey with your husband and being denied children because your heart is giving up we will talk again. Do your really believe I wanted all this? I am thankful that I am already here for 42 years and that I am able to do so many fun things in life. You have NO idea how much that saved my life from suicide!

I am talking about my life, my body and soul and my relationship with God.......So do not say that I do not respect any other way of living and dying.....