ACLU Wants Cross Removed from Cemetary Plot

Brad'sDad · May 17, 2005

notto said:
Of course it doesn't. Nobody (including the ACLU) is saying that. A government endorsed war memorial on a government owned cemetary with a Christian symbol devoid of recognition of any other religion does.

It's not a personal marker. If it was, the ACLU wouldn't have, or be making a case.

According to the OP, it is a personal marker. The cemetery contains other symbols such as the Star of David, etc. The cross isn't exclusive.

notto · May 17, 2005

Brad'sDad said:
According to the OP, it is a personal marker. The cemetery contains other symbols such as the Star of David, etc. The cross isn't exclusive.

I would encourage you to read the whole thread. The OP doesn't give the entire story.

Brad'sDad · May 17, 2005

notto said:
I would encourage you to read the whole thread.

I have.

The OP doesn't give the entire story.

Neither does your link.

notto · May 17, 2005

Brad'sDad said:
I have.

Neither does your link.

Well, the ACLU wouldn't have a case, or be interested in it if it was simply a personal marker. The trustees of this government owned cemetary endorsed the cross as a war memorial, it has a plaque, and it is lit at night.

Not simply a cross, not a personal marker, endorsed by the government trustees of the cemetary.

What did I miss?

Brad'sDad · May 17, 2005

notto said:
Well, the ACLU wouldn't have a case, or be interested in it if it was simply a personal marker.

The ACLU often pokes its nose into things it should stay out of. This wouldn't be the first time they've attacked a cross on a cemetery.

Not simply a cross, not a personal marker, endorsed by the government trustees of the cemetary.

What did I miss?

The OP says the cross was positioned on a privately owned plot, so it's being used as a marker. As long as the city trustees agree that the cross isn't violating any ordinances and public funds aren't used to maintain it, then I have no problem with that either. The aclu should just plain butt out.

notto · May 17, 2005

Brad'sDad said:
The ACLU often pokes its nose into things it should stay out of. This wouldn't be the first time they've attacked a cross on a cemetery.

The OP says the cross was positioned on a privately owned plot, so it's being used as a marker. As long as the city trustees agree that the cross isn't violating any ordinances and public funds aren't used to maintain it, then I have no problem with that either. The aclu should just plain butt out.

Who's grave is it marking? Do other graves have the same access to electricity for lighting at night and a plaque designating it as a war memorial? Who do you think is paying the electric bill for the lighting?

It isn't a personal marker. Never was. Having it on a privately owned plot is besides the point. The government can't give special rights of privilage (such as selling two square feet of ground for religious markers) to individuals for use as a publically endorsed religious monument.

The ACLU wouldn't need to butt in if this was a personal grave marker (and they wouldn't). It is when Christian symbols are given privilage above all others without the ability of others to have the same access that it is a problem. That is government endorsement of religion, plain and simple.

Paula · May 17, 2005

notto said:
Who's grave is it marking?

As has already been pointed out numerous times on this thread, the plot belongs to Cy Karns:

"The plot the cross is on was donated to the late Cy Karns, who helped put it there."

http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4481346/detail.html

Do other graves have the same access to electricity for lighting at night and a plaque designating it as a war memorial? Who do you think is paying the electric bill for the lighting?....

There are several problems with your argument, including some erroneous assumptions:

First, there are other sources of lighting besides electrical.

Second, included in the purchase price of the plot is a maintenance charge for groundskeeping. Maintenance and refurbishing of the monument is the owner's responsibility.

Third, there is also a general rule that once something belongs to the state, the state cannot legally give it away.

Fourth, considering the variety of monuments in the Elk Township cemetery, its patently absurd to say that one singular monument somehow creates a state religion, or that it violates separation of church and state doctrine.

So to me, the issue is whether the cemetery becomes a public forum where different messages are put. And if it is, then it seems to be very hard to say it's unconstitutional to have a large cross there. On the other hand, if the cross were standing alone on government property, that would be the state preferring a religious message.

JimfromOhio · May 17, 2005

Paula said:
http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4481346/detail.html

Hey.. that's my local news channel in Columbus, Ohio !!!!!

Paula · May 17, 2005

JimfromOhio said:
Hey.. that's my local news channel in Columbus, Ohio !!!!!

Great! I'd love to hear your input on this story.

JimfromOhio · May 17, 2005

Paula said:
Great! I'd love to hear your input on this story.

ACLU have a problem with a Cross being displayed in a public cemetery. At issue is whether the ACLU can have a case if the memorial is located on a private plot. The ACLU's position is that if it is part of a private grave plot, it is an expression of personal belief. But as a public memorial in a public cemetary, it violates the phantom separation of church and state.

The cross stays if it is part of a private grave plot, it is an expression of personal belief.

The cross leaves if is part of a public memorial in a public (Government) cemetary.

It would be different if the cemetary is private because the cross STAYS.

ACougar · May 17, 2005

Brad'sDad said:
The ACLU often pokes its nose into things it should stay out of. This wouldn't be the first time they've attacked a cross on a cemetery.

Source please. The ACLU supports free expresion, the only time it would ever oppose a cross is when it gives the appearance of government endorsement of religion. If the ACLU was not fighting to preserve my civil liberties I wouldn't be donating money and supporting them.

Expect to see them supporting the rights of Pagans like me to have Pagan markers at veterans cemetaries in the near future. That is assuming the government doesn't stop stonewalling the issue.

notto · May 17, 2005

Paula said:
As has already been pointed out numerous times on this thread, the plot belongs to Cy Karns:

"The plot the cross is on was donated to the late Cy Karns, who helped put it there."

But it is not his grave marker. I'm guessing he is elsewhere in the cemetary based on the comments of his son. It is not a personal marker - it was voted on and approved as a WAR MEMORIAL at the board of TRUSTEES of the cemetary.

You are avoiding the actual facts and reality of the situation.

It is not a personal marker. If it was, the ACLU would not be involved.

Paula · May 17, 2005

notto said:
But it is not his grave marker. I'm guessing he is elsewhere in the cemetary based on the comments of his son.

That's pure speculation. Remember, there is no rule or law that says a marker cannot be placed on a plot prior to burial. I've already covered this subject earlier in the thread.

It is not a personal marker - it was voted on and approved as a WAR MEMORIAL at the board of TRUSTEES of the cemetary.

What's the problem with a memorial honoring war veterans being placed at the cemetery?

You are avoiding the actual facts and reality of the situation.
If it was, the ACLU would not be involved.

I'm afraid the ACLU is not always as pristine as some of its loyal devotees would like us to believe.

notto · May 17, 2005

Paula said:
That's pure speculation. Remember, there is no rule or law that says a marker cannot be placed on a plot prior to burial. I've already covered this subject earlier in the thread.

His son outright refers to it as a war memorial. Cy is not buried there.

What's the problem with a memorial honoring war veterans being placed at the cemetery?

Nothing at all. As long as it is not a geared to only one particular religious group in a public cemetary.

I'm afraid the ACLU is not always as pristine as some of its loyal devotees would like us to believe.

Well, at least the are consistent. They are not against private religious symbols on private graves. Since this is a war memorial in a public cemetary approved by the local government, they take issue with it.

starchild · May 17, 2005

You know, nothing in the article says Cy is buried there (covered previously) which makes it pretty clear he is not...

And ok, you can put a marker on a gravesite before the burial...

But, per the article, Cy is dead. The man who owns the site is dead and apparently not buried there (pure speculation, as is speculating that he IS buried there...)

So, if the marker's there waiting for the owner to be buried there, and if Cy is the owner, and if Cy is dead....

WHERE IS CY????

At what point after his demise are they going to get around to... you know... burying him?

Paula · May 17, 2005

notto said:
His son outright refers to it as a war memorial. Cy is not buried there.

Again, that's only speculative, certainly not supported by either of the links you gave. However, even assuming arguendo that Cy is buried elsewhere, the plot would still be family-owned.

Well, at least the are consistent. They are not against private religious symbols on private graves. Since this is a war memorial in a public cemetary approved by the local government, they take issue with it.

Do you feel the same way about cross memorials at Arlington National Cemetery?

notto · May 17, 2005

Paula said:
Again, that's only speculative, certainly not supported by either of the links you gave. However, even assuming arguendo that Cy is buried elsewhere, the plot would still be family-owned.

If CY was buried there, it would be a personal marker and the ACLU would not have a case. If the board of trustees of a public cemetary allows a burial plot to be used for something that is a public use (such as a war memorial), they can't let it be used for endorsing a particular religous sect without providing the same opportunity to others. They endorsed and approved the monument and the plot for something other than a personal gravesite.

Do you feel the same way about cross memorials at Arlington National Cemetery?

What cross memorials (that are not personal grave markers) at Arlington National Cemetery?

Paula · May 17, 2005

[size=+3]The Canadian Cross Of Sacrifice[/size]
[size=+3]At Arlington National Cemetery[/size]

[size=+1]The Canadian Cross of Sacrifice, which honors U.S. citizens who[/size]
[size=+1]served in the Canadian Forces in the First, Second and Korean Wars[/size]

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/canadian-cross.htm

Paula · May 17, 2005

[size=+3]Argonne Cross Memorial[/size][size=+1][/size]

[size=+1]Memorial to the men and women of the World War I American Expeditionary forces who died in the Argonne Forest region of northeast France. Section 18, Arlington National Cemetery.[/size]
[size=+1] [/size]

[size=+1][/size]

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/argonne-cross.htm

notto · May 17, 2005

Paula said:
[size=+3]The Canadian Cross Of Sacrifice[/size]
[size=+3]At Arlington National Cemetery[/size]

[size=+1]The Canadian Cross of Sacrifice, which honors U.S. citizens who[/size]
[size=+1]served in the Canadian Forces in the First, Second and Korean Wars[/size]

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/canadian-cross.htm

Probably grandfathered in by being there since 1925. Perhaps the ACLU will address it if somebody makes the case.

It certainly would not be put up today due to precident that has been set. That is why government officials or employees who continue to attempt it will be taken to task. It is well understood and precidented that the government is to remain secular in its actions and endorsements.

Just ask Roy Moore.

ACLU Wants Cross Removed from Cemetary Plot

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