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I asked a number of questions in my first response to your OP, and you don't seem to have answered them. Perhaps you cannot.
What, the response in which you demonstrate that you do not quite understand what theories and laws are? (gravity is a theory. There are also laws regarding gravity. But a theory does not become a law.)
The response where you argue against a strawman version of the Big Bang? (The BB was not a thermonuclear reaction of Hydrogen. There was no Hydrogen. There was no matter; it was all energy.
We can not validate that claim, as it was a void, that very well may have been thousands of light years across, as it stands today, we have no idea how big the "Universe is" we have only a rough idea of how far the matter that is in the universe is spread out. How much father it can go, we have no way to gauge.Also, at the time, the universe was not billions of light-years across.
It was as best we can figure a reaction in a void. IE: an Explosion IN a Void, that in effect, "filled the void with matter" as such, we truly have no other way to look at it.The BB was not an explosion into existing space, but an expansion of space itself. Hydrogen did not need to be pulled in from all reaches of the universe.)
Even in Quantom Theory, There has to be something, IE: There is an aspect that Photons can combine with molecular matter, and add weight to it, but, the photon needs to be provided. IE: The concept that matter can be converted to energy, and also that energy can be converted to matter, may be true, but still something has to be provided. You can not have a void, and then have something appear in that void with out some form of provision.As for your question about law of physics that allows for "something from nothing," that would fall under quantum theory.
It's not really pratt, as the points that are raised by these questions, have never been truly addressed, only side stepped, IE: Well maybe it did not start with amino acids. This, it is not the improbability that is Pratt, but the means and back stepping down to try and look at the situation from another angle that does not make such improbability possible.From there, you jump straight into the PRATT about the the so-called huge improbability of life arising.
as Darwin proposed it, your right.Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with evolution.
yes, but does that increase the probity, or is that simply a "white wash answer" as opposed to just admitting "we have no idea".As for the calculation of odds, yes, if it were random chance it would be very unlikely. But chemistry is not random chance. And nobody suggests that things jumped right up to complex amino acids. The process would certainly begin with simpler molecules.
Not really, it has been a somewhat accurate representation of one of the many Big Bang models used, maybe not the one you subscribe to, if you accept any of them, however, it is a model that has been accepted, even aired on the discovery channel.You finish off by saying that "mathematics and probability would seem to rule out Darwin's theory." But in fact, you have not addressed Darwin's theory at all. You've addressed the theories regarding the Big Bang and abiogenesis, and even then you've not actually addressed the theories, but rather misinterpreted versions thereof.
Just to correct a few things, as if you seek to correct someone Skaloop, then equally so, your own misconceptions of what you are correcting need to be corrected.
I hope you understand.
One, Big Bang Model that is used, deals with matter and antimatter forming electrons, neutrons, protons, and positrons, and some other trons I do not remember. When this happened, the aspects of the atoms formed into the simplest atom, which would be Hydrogen, then theory goes on to say that the Hydrogen then formed into collected "balls" of mass, which then some how exploded into stars, and it goes on to explain how the reaction within the "early" stars, acted like alchemy and made the rest of the solid matter in the universe.
That was the Theory I believe he was referring to, when he explained that Hydrogen, would no collect, but spread apart and expand to fill the voids of space. Stars would not form this way.
We can not validate that claim, as it was a void, that very well may have been thousands of light years across, as it stands today, we have no idea how big the "Universe is" we have only a rough idea of how far the matter that is in the universe is spread out. How much father it can go, we have no way to gauge.
It was as best we can figure a reaction in a void. IE: an Explosion IN a Void, that in effect, "filled the void with matter" as such, we truly have no other way to look at it.
Even in Quantom Theory, There has to be something, IE: There is an aspect that Photons can combine with molecular matter, and add weight to it, but, the photon needs to be provided. IE: The concept that matter can be converted to energy, and also that energy can be converted to matter, may be true, but still something has to be provided. You can not have a void, and then have something appear in that void with out some form of provision.
It's not really pratt, as the points that are raised by these questions, have never been truly addressed, only side stepped, IE: Well maybe it did not start with amino acids. This, it is not the improbability that is Pratt, but the means and back stepping down to try and look at the situation from another angle that does not make such improbability possible.
IE: It was simple polymers, not amino acids, this step was taken, because of the vast improblity of Amino Acids being able to make life. However, we have no validity that Simple Polymers, have a "better chance" we just assume that they do, as we have not gotten truly past the first step.
yes, but does that increase the probity, or is that simply a "white wash answer" as opposed to just admitting "we have no idea".
In this front, Chemestry may not be random, but the enviroment by which the reaction was to take place, and cotrol of what chemicals were added to mix, in what volumes, and out side influnces were added, are random. As such, it is a random event.
Truly not much different then say, going to a K-Mart, and running though the store, grabbing things with a blind fold on, and expecting to leave with everything you wanted, in the right amounts you wanted them in.
To some extent, it is controlled, and to some extent, it is random. You had things you needed, in specific amounts, and these things, where in the K-mart, However, the control by which the things were provided, was random, as such, getting what is needed, or even wanted, in the amount wanted, is still a random factor.
Not really, it has been a somewhat accurate representation of one of the many Big Bang models used, maybe not the one you subscribe to, if you accept any of them, however, it is a model that has been accepted, even aired on the discovery channel.
I am sure there are "other" models, but, when it comes to science, and having this many models, is not a good thing, not a good thing at all.
As for Abiogenesis, The model he used, was the model that was proposed, regarding the existence of protocells, there are other models, but, that one had created the most stir.
And many of the other models, have provide no where near the result of the Protocell model, so they can for the most part, at this time be ignored , until they can produce results beyond "well, we think it could happen, we just have no idea how".
So, in the end, yes, he was using viable Theories, that have been accepted, and put down for peer review, and have been found worthy or respect in the scientific community, and not only that, have provided some surprising results, they are just so vastly improbable. I for one can not deny the results, they are amazing. They are just not feasible.
God Bless
Key
That's generally how I understand it, but I understood him to mean that Hydrogen atoms were drawn together from throughout the universe into a small region which then exploded. Which is not like the Big Bang I generally read about. I must admit that my primary knowledge on this comes from books written more for laymen than cosmologists, so I'm probably not getting the deepest analysis. But BB generally says that hydrogen formed into balls of mass through gravity, correct? I don't recall hearing that they exploded into stars, merely that these balls of mass continued to accrue other matter through gravitational forces. Once they reached a certain size/mass/density, the forces under extreme pressure caused nuclear reactions through which two Hydrogen atoms would fuse and became Helium, and so on to form the more basic elements. It's not so much alchemy as it is nuclear physics.
As I understand it, before any matter formed at all, the energy of the universe was an extremely chaotic "environment" full of quantum fluctuations. As spacetime expanded and this energy "cooled down" and formed matter, the quantum fluctuations caused matter to form non-uniformly, such that there were some regions with higher density than others, and therefore gravity differentials allowed the matter to "clump" together.
And a void is an empty space. But at that time, there was no space. It is spacetime itself that expanded, drawing the matter and energy with it, rather than matter and energy spreading out into existing space. This sort of expansion of spacetime is still occuring, and is observable.
Again, all that I have read from my books on the matter is that the universe was not a void waiting to be filled, and that our universe, at the time of the Big Bang, was on the scale of a Planck length is size.
I like the points on a balloon model myself. It's somewhat flawed, but better shows the expansion idea.
We're talking about subatomic neutrinos and such. Quantum uncertainty states that there are variations within a quantum field, and as such variations within the field can give rise to quanta that did not previously exist.
It's a PRATT primarily because the odds presented are not based on accurate calculations or assumptions. If you assert that we can't caluclate the probability of simple polymers, then you must also admit that one cannot calculate the probability of more complex polymers or amino acids.
And even if the odds could be known, over the unfathomably huge amount of time and huge number of co-occurring trials, would the odds really be so insurmountable?
If the results are not feasible, then it is not a viable theory.
Alchmey was the "science" of trying to turn one element into another.. most noted to be Lead into Gold.
I didn't know that it's impossible to prove a negative. I suppose this means that the recent proof of Fermat's Theorem must be incorrect, because Fermat's Theorem is a negative statement.
The idea that "it's impossible to prove a negative," is just not true. I'm often surprised that atheists, who effectively worship logic, are unaware of the rules of logic to the extent that they don't know this. Mathematics alone abounds with negative statements that can be logically proven. It's true that there are some negative statements that can't be proven, just as there are positive statements that can be proven. But when this is the case, it is at least possible to prove that no proof exists. It's also true that negative statements tend to be more difficult to prove than positive ones, but this is more a matter of semantics given that a negative statement can easily be rewritten as a positive one. I suppose the fact that negative statements can be proven goes to show that the usual atheist line on burdens of proof (and the second most popular one on pink unicorns) is simply a means to avoid the fact that they have no proof of their religious belief.
Gods Law?Examples of laws that should not be laws: Ohm's Law, Hooke's Law, Watt's Law, the Law of Biot-Savart
. All of these are examples of laws that are known to be invalid in general, and yet for historical reasons the name remains. Given this, it is really not reasonable to expect a non-scientist (or even a scientist, for that matter) to accurately differentiate between theories and laws.
Is something in error with that? *confused*From a source quoted by Digit.
First, it would be prudent to speak of the burden of proof. It's a general rule in philosophy that she who proposes must explain and defend. If someone says that "X exists," the burden is on her to provide a case for the existence of X. The burden is not on the one who denies that X exists. For how can one prove a negative?
In this case, it is the critic who proposes. He claims that the Bible is "full of contradictions," and often proposes a lengthy list such as the one we are about to respond to below. Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the "true one" is not all that relevant in such contexts.
Wait a minute. I'm by no means a scientist (or even a very good student in science class, for that matter), but aren't the only major differences between elements the mass of the atoms and the arrangement of their subatomic particles? Given that, couldn't alchemy be feasible with modern technology?
Is something in error with that? *confused*
Digit
Ok, I don't see much wrong with that unless it comes down to something that we cannot prove. I find it fascinating that Atheists, or in fact mankind in general, hold so little knowledge of the physical yet have concluded via that, that there is no spiritual.No, the post was in reply to another post by another member where burden of proof was in question.
I asserted that the burden of proof lies with those making the positive statement. those that say there is a god hold the burden of proof, those that say the bible is the word of god hold the burden of proof, those that say the bible is violent hold the burden of proof, etc...
Any communcation between God an man is limited by our fallibility. The only way God can avoid that is not to speak to us.Contradictions appear because of the use of language, surely then a book is a bad medium for god to convey himself.
The contradictions are a complete irrelevence. Only someone who is more interested in proving the text valueless would focus on them instead of the substance of the narative. Or, I suppose, someone more interested in disproving said proofs - I'm not sure that some of the 'explanations' have any more respect for the text than those who raise the objections in the first place.the contradictions exist, i shouldnt have to read a long list of explanations before i understand the bible.
That doesn't really fit the profile of some of those who wrote it or the circumstances of the communities it was written in though. The NT wasn't written by a post-Constantine church, nor much of the OT by people/groups in situations of power. It's certainly been used to prop up the power and status of different groups throughout history, but the idea that it's written for that purpose doesn't fit the history of it's authorship. Neither does it fit the content, which is (throughout) subversive, revolutionary, and undermining to power structures.appart from the contradictions there are many other reasons that i think the bible is not the word of some God. Instead i think it is the word of man and man alone and was written as a form of population control.
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Any communcation between God an man is limited by our fallibility. The only way God can avoid that is not to speak to us.
The contradictions are a complete irrelevence. Only someone who is more interested in proving the text valueless would focus on them instead of the substance of the narative. Or, I suppose, someone more interested in disproving said proofs - I'm not sure that some of the 'explanations' have any more respect for the text than those who raise the objections in the first place.
That doesn't really fit the profile of some of those who wrote it or the circumstances of the communities it was written in though. The NT wasn't written by a post-Constantine church, nor much of the OT by people/groups in situations of power. It's certainly been used to prop up the power and status of different groups throughout history, but the idea that it's written for that purpose doesn't fit the history of it's authorship. Neither does it fit the content, which is (throughout) subversive, revolutionary, and undermining to power structures.
Or maybe that story tells of something rather more complex than God deliberately tempting people.Perhaps that would have been better, perhaps if god had created the world and just let it be, perhaps we would all be leading a more peacefull life. But instead god introduced temptation in the tree in the garden of Eden and it was all down hill from there.
Which kind of leads me to think - and I mean no disrespect but I can't think of a politer way of saying it - that you never came close to understanding it in the first place if you think it is violent or intolerant or if you think a few superficial contradictions matter.I spent a considerable amount of my lifetime studying (and i mean studying) the bible from the perspective of a christian. I now cannot fathom the bible, the contradictions, the violence, the complete intolerance of it all, i just cannot line it up with my intelect and my empathy and compassion for those around me and for the planet.
There always have - and always will be- people wanting to abuse it. The story of Simon the Magi in Acts 8 springs to mind (and he got to donate his name for an Engish word for his trouble) springs to mind. No movement should be judged by the worst people who try to associate themselves with it. That said, there are ways that the church as a whole is falling short of its calling - and there are magnificent examples of it living up to it, eg Archbishop Desmond Tutu in South Africa.I will concede that at one time there were christians that were good and well motivated to do the best they could to aleviate suffering and help those around them. Unfortunatly this hasent continued, you only have to look as far as you own backyard at you very own Ted Haggard and other discredited high profile (filthy rich) preachers and missionaries.
and then a little further at the Phelps and their "god hate [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]" and their "thank god for dead soldiers", and then a little further to you own GW Bush and his war in Iraq and the fact that "god told him" to invade.
Christianity, or a pretense thereof, certainly has been used to uphold power structures - both obstensibly Christian and otherwise - but that's neither it's origin, purpose, nor long-term effect. Christianity can no more be held accountable for every wrongdoing done in its name than science, rationality, enliightenment, humanism, or any religion can.I say that christianity is used to uphold power structures, unless they are non-christian power structures.
Apparently so. The question is whether that loss of credibility is deserved, and whether it can be rectified.Sorry but christianity has lost all its credibility.
From a source quoted by Digit.
First, it would be prudent to speak of the burden of proof. It's a general rule in philosophy that she who proposes must explain and defend. If someone says that "X exists," the burden is on her to provide a case for the existence of X. The burden is not on the one who denies that X exists. For how can one prove a negative?
In this case, it is the critic who proposes. He claims that the Bible is "full of contradictions," and often proposes a lengthy list such as the one we are about to respond to below. Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the "true one" is not all that relevant in such contexts.
Gods Law?
Wait a minute. I'm by no means a scientist (or even a very good student in science class, for that matter), but aren't the only major differences between elements the mass of the atoms and the arrangement of their subatomic particles? Given that, couldn't alchemy be feasible with modern technology?
Secondly, We can not validate that Hydrogen produices gravational forces that would exceed the expansion properties of Hydrogen.
IE: Gas will not form into balls, in a Vacuum, it will expand uniformly though the vacuum. As such, to say that it would collect, then that contradicts what we know of the nature of Gas. It will in fact, not "lump together" either by gravity, or other wise, and even if there were variances in density of the hydrogen atoms, it would not be substantial to attract over nature of Gas in a void, (and we at this time left the field of Quantum Physics, and even in the off chance, that they could have attracted, enough additional other hydrogen atoms to form some type of cluster, the "extreme pressure" required to ignite it, would not be a feasibility, as we have nothing today that can even simulate the same or even a small scale effect that would hint that this could happen.
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