Abstinence

brightmorningstar · Dec 6, 2005

To Electric Skeptic,

Certainly true. However, they won't abstain.

Then they will probably get AIDS wont they?

They certainly won't just because somebody tells them they should.

Then they will probably get AIDS wont they? If they are told more unprotected sex increases the chance of AIDS and they dont listen, whose fault is that? I believe they need education in ABC.

This has been proven again and again - abstinence only education does not work as a method of preventing the transmission of STDs.

But in the UK we dont have abstinence education at all, and yet we have an increase in STDs, and besides ABC isnt Abstinence only. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4339460.stm

You are missing the point, abstinence works, people who abstain form sex dont get AIDS from sex. I cant understand why you seem to have a problem with abstinence education as part of ABC, if the reality is abstinence or AIDS and people chose AIDS then thats their choice isnt it, but I recognise that people do chose badly and so support ABC.

Similarly with drugs, people have a choice when they get educated.

people won't stop having sex.

Yes some will, some are celebate Christians for the Kingdom of God, and there are many others. I disagree with you.

So the most effective way - given the realities - is to teach them how to minimise the danger, by condom use, etc.

Not if one doesnt believe that. If for example one is a Christian and believes that sex is for a faithful marriage or celibacy then ABC is the best education. You seem to be looking at it from the viewpoint that everyone has a right to sex and not to get AIDS, I am looking at it from a viewpoint that I dont want anyone to have to have AIDS.

No, none of the money can be spent on needles.

Ah sorry I misunderstood that. So maybe we need to spend a little on needles but make sure we spend enough on education so we dont get into this mess again.

That's the point. They won't reduce AIDS. Telling people "Don't do this and then you won't catch AIDS" doesn't work.

But if they heeded the advice they wont get AIDS, if they dont heed the advice they probably will. Thats reality. I believe ABC is the best way to help, but lets not blame the helpers if people wont make the right choices.

I want it reduced. I am not unrealistic enough to believe that it will be reduced by preaching to people. THAT method is the less effective and more expensive one, and THAT method is what the US is trying to do in Africa.

Then I think you have an unrealistic and incorrect understanding. ABC for me is the best method, and I might add that if you dont believe A first you are compromising the best way not to get AIDS with sexual freedom.

Electric Sceptic · Dec 6, 2005

brightmorningstar said:
Then they will probably get AIDS wont they?

Yes, they will , as long as abstinence only is all that's taught.

brightmorningstar said:
Then they will probably get AIDS wont they? If they are told more unprotected sex increases the chance of AIDS and they dont listen, whose fault is that? I believe they need education in ABC.

It's nobody's 'fault'. It's a fact of nature. They need education in safe sex, not preaching.

brightmorningstar said:
But in the

brightmorningstar said:
UK we dont have abstinence education at all, and yet we have an increase in STDs, and besides ABC isnt Abstinence only. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4339460.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4339460.stm

Nobody has stated or suggested that ABC is abstinence only.

brightmorningstar said:
You are missing the point, abstinence works, people who abstain form sex dont get AIDS from sex.

brightmorningstar said:
I cant understand why you seem to have a problem with abstinence education as part of ABC, if the reality is abstinence or AIDS and people chose AIDS then thats their choice isnt it, but I recognise that people do chose badly and so support ABC.

Nobody ha a problem with abstinence education as PART of sex education. The problem arises when that is ALL the education that people get, as many christians want - and as the US is trying to implement in the nation in the world most affected by AIDS.

brightmorningstar said:
You seem to be looking at it from the viewpoint that everyone has a right to sex and not to get AIDS, I am looking at it from a viewpoint that I dont want anyone to have to have AIDS.

Everybody has a right to sex. We, the more educated and financially well-off, have a moral imperative to help those who are less fortunate. That means helping them to have safe sex, since they're sure not gooing to stop.

brightmorningstar said:
Ah sorry I misunderstood that. So maybe we need to spend a little on needles but make sure we spend enough on education so we dont get into this mess again. But if they heeded the advice they wont get AIDS, if they dont heed the advice they probably will. Thats reality. I believe ABC is the best way to help, but lets not blame the helpers if people wont make the right choices.

I do blame the 'helpers' if they 'load' the choices. "You don't want AIDS? Don't have sex. If you do and get AIDS, you deserve it!". That's not helping.

brightmorningstar said:
Then I think you have an unrealistic and incorrect understanding. ABC for me is the best method, and I might add that if you dont believe A first you are compromising the best way not to get AIDS with sexual freedom.

And I think YOU have an unreaslistic and incorrect understanding.

Of course, if you don't practice abstinence, you are increasing your chances of contracting AIDS. And if you get in a car, you are increasing your chances of dying in a car crash. So, in both cases, you MINIMISE the risks. You wear a condom/seat belt. Somebody who said "You don't want to die in a car crash? Don't drive. If you do and die, it's your own fault" isn't giving driver education. Giving driver education is about telling people how to be as safe as possible while driving. Giving sex education is about telling people how to be as safe as possible while having sex, not just telling them "don't do it!"

brightmorningstar · Dec 6, 2005

To Electric Skeptic,

Yes, they will , as long as abstinence only is all that's taught.

Then they only have themselves to blame, but we havent helped as much as we should, thats why ABC is best.

It's nobody's 'fault'. It's a fact of nature. They need education in safe sex, not preaching.

No they dont need a lesson in safe sex as there is no 100% safe sex, they need a lesson in AIDS prevention! I put it to you that by just preaching condoms and safe sex only you are building in a risk. ABC gives the opportunity to complete avoidance from AIDS by sex and gives the individual the choice.

Nobody has stated or suggested that ABC is abstinence only.

I know so what is your point here?

Nobody ha a problem with abstinence education as PART of sex education.

Then why did you say They need education in safe sex, not preaching in response to my support of ABC?

Everybody has a right to sex.

Thats your view not mine.

That means helping them to have safe sex, since they're sure not gooing to stop.

ABC includes this.

I do blame the 'helpers' if they 'load' the choices.

But ABC isnt loading the choice.

ChristianCenturion · Dec 6, 2005

ebia said:
If that's all they are going to be taught, yes I would object. IMO, it's worse than useless.

Most of the curriculum is contested by somebody. Should we not bother teaching the kids anything at all.

I didn't qualify my statement as applicable to any objection. It was in the generalized sense and taking into consideration the democratic process. To push it to the extreme and make it "any objection" would be out of context.

This is a straw man, since no-one is suggesting encouraging kids to have sex.

Telling someone that they "should not do" only to follow up by, but if you do, this is a "safe way" (safe being a misnomer) how to avoid consequences... is contradictive and it is sending a message of encouragement. Seldom is this kind of mixed message done in any other issue of law and yes, having sex with a child under the age of consent is illegal in many areas.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If I'm prepared to teach my kids maths, does that mean that the school shouldn't bother to teach maths to anyone?

Math isn't a morality issue.

morningstar2651 · Dec 6, 2005

What if someone with HIV bleeds on you? What if you're a heroin addict and you share a needle with someone that has HIV?

Abstinence does not make one immune to HIV. To say it does is to play off of people's fear of death to coerce them to be abstinent. To say it does, is to lie.

What if someone were to be raped by someone that has HIV. Their choice to be abstinent didn't protect them from HIV. What if someone were raped and impregnated? Abstinence does not guarantee that a person won't get pregnant.

I have no problem with encouraging abstinence, but abstinence-only education is no education, it's avoiding the subject of sex entirely.

The best advice I can give someone is, if you aren't ready to raise a child, then you aren't ready for sexual intercourse. Stick to holding hands, kissing, cuddling, heavy petting, etc.

Electric Sceptic · Dec 6, 2005

brightmorningstar said:
Then they only have themselves to blame, but we havent helped as much as we should, thats why ABC is best.

And that's what the US isn't doing.

brightmorningstar said:
No they dont need a lesson in safe sex as there is no 100% safe sex, they need a lesson in AIDS prevention!

Safe sex IS a lesson in AIDS prevention.

brightmorningstar said:
I put it to you that by just preaching condoms and safe sex only you are building in a risk.

Nobody has suggested that condoms and safe sex be ALL that is 'preached'.

brightmorningstar said:
ABC gives the opportunity to complete avoidance from AIDS by sex and gives the individual the choice.

brightmorningstar said:
I know so what is your point here?
Then why did you say They need education in safe sex, not preaching in response to my support of ABC?

This thread is not about ABC. It's about the US' efforts in Africa.

brightmorningstar said:
Thats your view not mine.

If you believe people - or SOME people - don't have the right to have sex, I can't help you.

ChristianCenturion · Dec 6, 2005

morningstar2651 said:
What if someone with HIV bleeds on you? What if you're a heroin addict and you share a needle with someone that has HIV?

Abstinence does not make one immune to HIV. To say it does is to play off of people's fear of death to coerce them to be abstinent. To say it does, is to lie.

Sex is a major component in the spread of HIV/AIDS. The OP topic is on abstinence; applications can be taken out to the extremes, but that doesn't make them still pertaining to the topic any longer when done.

What if someone were to be raped by someone that has HIV. Their choice to be abstinent didn't protect them from HIV. What if someone were raped and impregnated? Abstinence does not guarantee that a person won't get pregnant.

I have no problem with encouraging abstinence, but abstinence-only education is no education, it's avoiding the subject of sex entirely.

Again, going outside of the topic to issues of force and not within the realm of self-determination which would be applicable to abstinence or even device usage.

The best advice I can give someone is, if you aren't ready to raise a child, then you aren't ready for sexual intercourse. Stick to holding hands, kissing, cuddling, heavy petting, etc.

morningstar2651 · Dec 6, 2005

One of my big gripes about sex education in this country is the exclusion of everything but vaginal intercourse. It's caused an unhealthy fixation on vaginal intercourse. I never learned about masturbation in sex ed. I never learned about dental dams, birth control pills, or female condoms. I wasn't taught how to please my partner. I had to teach myself. I'd like to share some of the wisdom I've gained on my own, since schools are doing such a horrible job of teaching students about sex.

We are led to believe that if a couple engages in vaginal intercourse they will discover nirvana, the ultimate in sexual fulfillment. Intercourse is said to be the absolute best sexual experience. It is after all what defines sex. It is "sex." We expect to experience intense sexual pleasure and an emotional connection with our partner during or as a result of this activity. The physical joining of our bodies should result in the merging of our spirits. While this is certainly possible, it is just as likely to occur during other activities. The rewards vaginal intercourse has to offer are no more or less than those possible when holding hands, kissing, giving a massage, and during mutual masturbation and oral sex. The physical simply cannot guarantee the spiritual. Intercourse should never be considered the ultimate sexual experience, but rather all sexual activities should be seen as potentially equal. The reason they are "potentially" equal is one must take into consideration the uniqueness of the individuals involved.

Young adults often feel pressured to engage in vaginal intercourse to demonstrate they have achieved adulthood. We have "sex" to prove we are men and women, that we are no longer children. We keep having sex because that is what adults do. This is what society tells and expects of us, as adults. On a personal level, we may come to realize after having intercourse for the first time that nothing has changed. We may not feel differently about our partner or ourselves. We may be left wondering what the big deal was. Participating in intercourse for the first time at the age of twenty or thirty may not cause us to feel more "adult" than if we had done so at the age of twelve. Intercourse may not fulfill our lofty expectations. Couples should not engage in intercourse for the sole reason of achieving or demonstrating adulthood, as it is unlikely to fulfill their expectations.

As many adults discover, adulthood is something we are always striving to achieve but find is always just out of reach. We may engage in sex with a partner, graduate from school, vote, serve in the military, start a career, marry, have children, and buy a home, and in the case of women, start wearing a bra and menstruating, but find these events leave us wanting more. Adulthood is achieved not so much by what we do but by how others judge us. Unfortunately in our modern society, seldom does anyone ever tell us when we have achieved adulthood. We are left forever in a state of perpetual limbo, clearly no longer a child but not quite an adult either.

Adulthood is a social status that no physical accomplishment can guarantee without social recognition of that event. Many cultures have public ceremonies to provide a clear demarcation between childhood and adulthood so a person is not left wondering when they have achieved adulthood. It should be noted that the concept of "adolescence" came into existence only recently in Western culture and leaves young people in limbo for ever increasing amounts of time. When loss of virginity was closely linked with a public marriage ceremony, it was a clear indicator of passage into adulthood, and usually took place when couples were in their early to mid teens. Since a person may have partner sex for the first time at any stage of their life, it is no longer a clear indicator of adulthood in today's society. Since we all live such varied lives, there is no common indicator of adulthood that applies to everyone.

Vaginal intercourse is one aspect of female sexuality that has a lot of misinformation and confusion surrounding it. There is a common expectation that women should experience [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] without difficulty during intercourse. Many women believe that in order for them to be a good sexual partner they should. Women who do not, often believe there is something wrong with them because everything they have been told supports this believe. The media leads us to believe a woman should be squealing with delight and multi-orgasmic the moment [intercourse begins]. This results in women faking pleasure and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] so as to save face in front of their partner, to appear normal, mature, and to make their partner feel good about themselves. This takes an enormous emotional toll on women. As a result, sex becomes something many women avoid rather than looking forward to, understandably.

More to come later. I have to go to class now.

brightmorningstar · Dec 6, 2005

To Electric Skeptic

And that's what the US isn't doing.

No that is not what the US isn't doing. The US funding allows for ABC but requires a proportion on education and promoting abstinence which others are objecting to. Going back to the article link

Asked whether the UK disagreed with the US emphasis on abstinence, he said: "Abstinence works if people can abstain, but I don't think people should die because they have sex. We need to make sure people have all the means [of prevention] at their disposal - condoms and clean needles. It includes education and access to sexual and reproductive health services. We are very clear about that."

Abstinence is the most effective way of avoiding AIDS from sex. If with non-abstinence sex education in the UK we have increasing levels of STDs and AIDS then one could say no education works, and it looks like the reason is people are going to have sex even if it does kill them.

Safe sex IS a lesson in AIDS prevention.

But so is Abstinence, it is impossible to get AIDS from sex if one doesnt have sex and there is a failure rate with condoms. http://www.avert.org/condoms.htm

If we said 1 in 400 then we have a potential 100,000 more cases of AIDS more than abstinence. Maths and reality is a lesson in AIDS prevention.

If you believe people - or SOME people - don't have the right to have sex, I can't help you.

His grace is sufficient for meThanks all the same

Cerberus~ · Dec 6, 2005

But so is Abstinence, it is impossible to get AIDS from sex if one doesnt have sex and there is a failure rate with condoms.

You obviously don't know much about AIDS.

ChristianCenturion · Dec 6, 2005

Cerberus~ said:
You obviously don't know much about AIDS.

I read it as a generalized statement, but the chances of ME receiving AIDS in other ways given today's precautions would probably be comparable to getting struck by lightening. That would be a guess on my behalf though, due to the fact that I don't see an exposure category for anything other than drug, sexual issues and an ambiguous "other".
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#exposure

ebia · Dec 6, 2005

ChristianCenturion said:
Telling someone that they "should not do" only to follow up by, but if you do, this is a "safe way" (safe being a misnomer) how to avoid consequences... is contradictive and it is sending a message of encouragement.

No it's not.

Seldom is this kind of mixed message done in any other issue of law

We are not talking about what the law says, we are talking about education.

Math isn't a morality issue.

Neither is this - it's a health issue.

If you want to bump your kids out of it for personal moral reasons I don't have a problem with that - just as our Muslim parents ask for their girls to be excused from Ballroom Dancing - but that doesn't make it fundamentally a moral issue any more than Ballroom Dancing is.

ChristianCenturion · Dec 6, 2005

ebia said:
No it's not.

We are not talking about what the law says, we are talking about education.

Neither is this - it's a health issue.

If you want to bump your kids out of it for personal moral reasons I don't have a problem with that - just as our Muslim parents ask for their girls to be excused from Ballroom Dancing - but that doesn't make it fundamentally a moral issue any more than Ballroom Dancing is.

Obviously, your opinion on the issues differs from mine.
I'll be more concerned about such differences and their enactment repercussions when I am not represented in mine.

morningstar2651 · Dec 6, 2005

I am for comprehensive sex education, as opposed to abstinence only.

Here are some pretty important problems I have with the things kids are being taught.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Section 510(b) of Title V of the Social Security Act, P.L. 104193
[/font]For the purposes of this section, the term abstinence education means an educational or
motivational program which:

A.) has as its exclusive purpose teaching the social, psychological, and health gains to be realized by abstaining from sexual activity;
B.) teaches abstinence from sexual activity outside marriage as the expected standard for all school-age children;
C.) teaches that abstinence from sexual activity is the only certain way to avoid out-ofwedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and other associated health problems;
D.) teaches that a mutually faithful monogamous relationship in the context of marriage is the expected standard of sexual activity;
E.) teaches that sexual activity outside of the context of marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects;
F.) teaches that bearing children out-of-wedlock is likely to have harmful consequences for the child, the childs parents, and society;
G.) teaches young people how to reject sexual advances and how alcohol and drug use increase vulnerability to sexual advances, and
H.) eaches the importance of attaining self-sufficiency before engaging in sexual activity.

I hope that most of the flaws in this are completely obvious when you read this.

AndyB · Dec 6, 2005

I understand the teachings of our faith about abstinence, but I have to say that I have not observed it in my life. I say this so that the rest of my comments can be read in context.

I guess for me I have always felt that I could be a good person and a good Christian without being a virgin until i marry. I know some here would criticize that decision but I suppose I believe that the teaching of abstinence is more a hang over from hundreds of years of church history rather than a requirement of god to be a good believer.

I am very concerned that foreign governments in particular the American government has shifted large amounts of funding to Africa from the provision and teaching of safe sex to the teaching of abstinence. This moral crusade in the name of our church and our beliefs is leading to the premature death of millions. It is a naive policy in my opinion and close to endorsing genocide.

I believe that on earth we should work to make the lives of those less fortunate than us better. Preaching abstinence to prevent the spread of Aids in Africa is like holding up an umbrella to stop a Tsunami.

I call on every one who wants to help the people in Africa to call on the US government to re-focus funding onto safe sex programs. They should leave the teaching of religion to the church and provide real aid in a for crisis hundreds of times greater than the Katrina Hurricane.

brightmorningstar · Dec 7, 2005

To Cerberus,

You obviously don't know much about AIDS.

There are a number of ways one can get AIDS but to get it from sex one has to have sex, as I wrote

But so is Abstinence, it is impossible to get AIDS from sex if one doesnt have sex and there is a failure rate with condoms.

Is it possible to get AIDS from sex without having sex

morningstar2651 · Dec 7, 2005

Doesn't abstinence mean abstaining from all sexual contact whatsoever? At least, thats how it was taught when I was in school. Oral sex doesn't impregnate people.

morningstar2651 · Dec 7, 2005

brightmorningstar said:
To Cerberus,

There are a number of ways one can get AIDS but to get it from sex one has to have sex, as I wrote

But so is Abstinence, it is impossible to get AIDS from sex if one doesnt have sex and there is a failure rate with condoms.

Is it possible to get AIDS from sex without having sex

You're confusing AIDS and HIV.

It's impossible to get HIV from sex if your partner doesn't have HIV.

brightmorningstar · Dec 7, 2005

To AndyB

I call on every one who wants to help the people in Africa to call on the US government to re-focus funding onto safe sex programs. They should leave the teaching of religion to the church and provide real aid in a for crisis hundreds of times greater than the Katrina Hurricane.

I am sorry but I completely disagree with you. The best way to prevent AIDS which is the result of sex is abstinence. Using a condom and being faithful is the next best. To reject that approach because it is a Christian teaching is to me just irresponsible and irrelevent. If ABC is taught and people comply it will reduce AIDS caused from sex, if they dont AIDS is likely to increase. The best education is ABC.

Helo · Dec 7, 2005

The best way to prevent AIDS which is the result of sex is abstinence.

But that is not a REALISTIC method when applied to a large population

Abstinence

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