Abortion

emerald Dragon · Nov 10, 2003

Question:

What are your ideas on abortion. I know many people here will be pro-life, but what about extenuating circumstances?

For instance, my church does not allow abortion, except in the case of rape or incest, or if the pregnancy has complications where the mother's life is at risk, or if the child will not live after birth, or if the child has too many complications to make their life even profitable. All these cases must be approved by both doctors and the local church leader, after careful prayer.

I would like to know your opinions on this subject.

Teh Wiccan · Nov 10, 2003

I have a generally neutral stance on abortion. I agree that it should be an option when there are life threatening circumstances.

Mylinkay Asdara · Nov 10, 2003

Oh, hear we go again. Well I'm pro-choice (note: not pro-abortion, pro-choice as in I believe it should be a choice whatever one does).

lands21 · Nov 10, 2003

I am pro life. Doctors can not tell if it is going to be a life threating situation, God can preform miracles that doctors can not forsee.

Alos, with rape or incest, is it not still a life?

My wife is 4 month pregnet, and I can not understand how some one could take the life of a baby. I also know peopl who have and spend their lives regreatting it.

Arikay · Nov 10, 2003

Yep, pro choice. Im not omnipotent, and so I cant predict every outcome, thus no matter what I feel about abortion, I do feel that passing all encompasing laws that take away choice or even need, is not a good thing.

Havoc · Nov 10, 2003

I am against abortion, but I don't believe I have the right to decide for someone else.

tcampen · Nov 10, 2003

We all know people who'v had abortions and regret it, and had 'em but would do it again under the same circumstances. Same scenario with carrying the child to term and giving it up for adoption. Anecdotal stories aside....

I think it depends on whether one believes the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness extend the just fertilized egg and on, or whether those rights are extended at some other point in development.

There are powerful arguments on both sides, and to simply dismiss either is shortsighted.

While I oppose any type of late term abortion for "convenience," I also support the right of a 14 year old girl impregnanted by a rape to terminate the pregnancy. Both examples are very rare, however, and the real meat lies in the more common scenarios of elective abortions at very early stages of the pregnancy. The studies on the effects of the mother seem to vary dependending on who's providing the information, so it's difficult to determine where the truth is.

The fact that your church recognizes some exceptions allowing for abortions shows how this issue is not nearly as easily defined and dealt with as some would have us believe.

There are no easy answers here. Pray and follow your heart.

zebuwin · Nov 10, 2003

Difficult topic... I'd say I'm pro-life, but it's easy to say that when you're a man. Though I suspect I couldn't kill a baby, even if I was raped, were I a woman. But I do not condemn the women who do it with serious reasons (rape, high risk of malformation, life-threatening risks).

What shocks me is that more and more women use abortion as a contraceptive...

tcampen · Nov 10, 2003

zebuwin said:
What shocks me is that more and more women use abortion as a contraceptive...

Be careful not to think that all these women are having unprotected sex, thinking "I don't care if I get pregnant, because I can always just get another abortion..." It's a heck of a lot more complicated than that. In fact, I'd wager such an occurance is as rare as those seeking abortions because of rape or incest.

No woman wants to get an abortion, or takes such an action lightly. Regardless of what side you're on, its a big deal, and better avoided.

Salsa_1960 · Nov 10, 2003

I'm against abortion. There. I said it.

KennySe · Nov 10, 2003

Read this short article, then you can answer the question: "What is it?"
http://www.str.org/free/bioethics/Pro-Choice_Wins_IF.pdf

Duggie · Nov 10, 2003

I'm definately pro life, but as a christian and a human being I think its incredibly important we show compassion and love to those women who feel abortion is the only solution. I know that those who are pro choice will obviously feel that forgiveness is not necessary for the women who have or choose abortion but I would strongly beg to differ. We as christians have to have a heart of forgiveness toward women who have abortions. What upsets me is when I see so called men and women of God holding hate placards outside clinics screaming abuse at these women. I often ask myself the question would Jesus do that? the answer would be an emphatic NO Jesus responds with love.

tcampen · Nov 10, 2003

KennySe said:
Read this short article, then you can answer the question: "What is it?"
http://www.str.org/free/bioethics/Pro-Choice_Wins_IF.pdf

Ok, I read it. It started off ok, but then devolved into an unfortunate diatribe, with such things as:

"To sum up, when abortion advocates assert that they have a right to choose, I ask them to complete their own sentence: "A woman has a right to choose. Choose what?" Answer: The so-called "pro-choice" view is that a compassionate and tolerant society should allow us the choice to jam scissors through the head of an infant while it is in the process of being born, as is done in partial-birth abortion. It offers us the choice to dismember a human fetus limb from limb, causing him or her insufferable pain."

It's a shame he had to go there. So called "partial birth abortion" which he later refers to is a politically invented term. There is no such medical procedure. It is referring to intact dilatation and extraction, but this medical term isn't inflamatory enough, thus a better one had to be invented. Then he goes on talking about something that is so unbelievably rare, and only performed in extremely extenuating circumstances - as if it is really the norm, or an elective abortion out of "convenience."

His philosophical approach to what is life and the ideal that all life is of value was good, and presented some powerful arguments. It's just unfortunate he had to rely on blatently falacial arguments at the end.

stubbornkelly · Nov 10, 2003

Pro-choice, but I'm perfectly willing to help pro-lifers hone their argument. If abortion is murder (which, it is my understanding, is the crux of the argument, right?), why should it matter if the woman was raped? I've never understood that exception.

KennySe · Nov 10, 2003

Thank you fro reading it, t.

Dead things don't grow.

stubbornkelly · Nov 10, 2003

I just finished reading. I agree that the question of "what is it?" is the biggest issue. The right to murder a person is not protected, and I've never met a pro-choice person who believes it should be. That's contrary to what pro-lifers believe of us, but it's because of a different understanding of what it is. That is the argument.

I think he misses a few of the differences between a fetus and a toddler, but he seems to be most concerned with basic, almost biological differences, which have little to do with the definition of personhood. He also seems to interchange "human" and "person." Another place we part.

Thanks for the post.

Havoc · Nov 10, 2003

KennySe said:
Dead things don't grow.

Crystals grow.

And nobody said a fetus was dead. Cows are alive but we have no problem killing them. Chicken fetuses are eaten every day.

So it's not about whether the Fetus is alive, that's just anti-abortion rhetoric trying to show the other side as being foolish. The question is whether the Fetus is a human yet.

Salsa_1960 · Nov 10, 2003

It seems to me that the argument is over the worth of the unborn baby, especially if the baby is not wanted. Common arguments I hear are about families who cannot support another child or regarding a young mother who is unable to handle a child. Adoption has become an almost forgotten word in our society.

There are families wanting to adopt children. Waiting lists are long and families are going outside of the United States to adopt infants. Meanwhile, abortions are taking place daily.

~Sandy
(adopted at age 5 weeks March 25th, 1960)

Arikay · Nov 10, 2003

I agree a lot with tcampen.

I rarely debate abortion issues because I find the topic so heated and charged, that its hard to find good information. From the little bit of reading I have done, it often seems like both extremes of the debate commit the same logical fallacies and each skew data to fit their claims.
One example is what tcampen was talking about, since it is a very emotional issue, often sides create scary terms for things to try and make the persons emotions take over and decide for them, and evil sounding terms and names are a good way to do that, even if you have no real argument.
Beyond that, there are so many ill defined terms that it is hard to nail down any argument. What is "alive"?

One thing to note, that I found interesting, is that the bible does not consider the death of a baby inside a mother as a murder.

tcampen · Nov 10, 2003

KennySe said:
Thank you fro reading it, t.

Dead things don't grow.

Unfortunately, the issue isn't as clear as saying if it grows, and had human DNA, then it should be given all the same rights as either of us. Such a stance would, for example, make in vitro fertilization immoral, for it necessarily destroys fertilized eggs. That would mean my brother and his wife would probably never have their own children.

Sorry, but I don't see the 8 celled "person" as being entitled to the same rights as a born man or woman, or even a fetus later in development. Most of that guy's arguments really refered to a fetus at a fairly advanced state of development. To say a single celled person gets the same protections you or I get is stretching the argument for the sake of ease and convenience, not because it inherently makes sense.

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