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Perhaps there should be, or st least there should be discussion about how IVF is accomplished. But the fact that there is IVF the way it is has absolutely no bearing upon the morality of abortion. We need to understand the distinction between practice and principle.
No, they are not all natural. We can prevent great numbers of miscarriages, but intentionally choose not to do so. One distinction is omission vs commission, but the ultimate moral issue remains.Miscarriages are a natural event. Perhaps there should be more research into what causes miscarriages and more should be done to prevent them. But again, that has nothing to do with the morality of abortion.
Do you have some supporting argument for why you reject P1? I’ve never heard a Christian deny P1 before. Ever.
No, not a doctor, I chose $ over a PhD thesis, and beyond that, my expertise in a couple of exceedingly narrow areas of physics has no bearing on this discussion. Scientific expertise does not translate across fields nor even in the same course of study for most folks. A single paragraph in a 800 page undergrad quantum physics book became my focus of study for a multitude of years... but a recent undergrad could likely blow me off a race course wrt the other 799.8 pages in the same book, much less other areas of physics.Dr. Physicist: There is a big difference between the Bible saying nothing about when human life starts (at conception or birth) and Scripture specifically identifying one or the other as a human being. Do you have verses in mind that show SPF his claim zygotes are humans is wrong or assume just because zygotes are not mentioned in the Bible, nobody is human before birth?
I get that, and the current practice is predicated and rationalized due to the current made up, unbiblical distinction between a human being and a human person. This practice is based upon a false principle. The practice doesn’t determine the principle. In other words, the practice of IVF has 100% no bearing upon the principles we are discussing.IVF requires implanting many embryos, in the hopes that one will take which in some cases will then require abortion for the extra ones. The moral question remains in that scenario... I don't see how you can look at it any other way.
Then we should! But the fact that we don’t doesn’t therefore mean abortion is moral. Again, practices don’t determine principles.No, they are not all natural. We can prevent great numbers of miscarriages, but intentionally choose not to do so.
The truthfulness of P1 is entirely independent from the truthfulness of P2. You can’t deny P1 purely because you don’t like what results from the combination of the two independent premises.P1 must be denied if it is dependent upon P2 as a fertilized egg may or may not become a single human being.
It doesn’t throw any sort of wrench. We would simply say, for example, that in the case of identical twins that the older twin came into existence at fertilization, and then the younger twin came into existence slightly after fertilization. In the case of a chimera, that would be a tragic scenario where one of the children died.The Chimera issue throws a major wrench into the works, and as such, ensoulment cannot occur at fertilization, unless a soul splits into 2 unique parts
Augustine’s ignorance can be excused as when he lived he didn’t have the benefit of the scientific knowledge we have todayAugustine held that abortion even if it were in an "animal" or "plant" state pre-ensoulment
I always wonder if people actually read this passage before making this claim. This passage says absolutely nothing about Adam coming to life when HE breathed. It says that God, Himself, breathed life INTO Adam. In other words, God made Adam alive. The more accurate picture would be that Adam came alive and THEN breathed.Getting back to the scripture issue.
Genesis 2:7 makes a compelling case for ensoulment via breathing
Not so complex when the Hebrew word for abortion or miscarriage is absent from the text of Numbers 5.Have you not read Numbers 5?
Then google "wormwood & abortion"
It's a complicated topic.
Good point. Yet you have atheist writers for the Star Trek various series have star fleet captains refuse to remove microscopic life from some planet as it violates the prime directive. Go figure.A baby, who is clearly "fully human" from the instant of conception is certainly the most innocent kind of human being you could encounter in this life.
You are never going to have a good argument for ensoulment after birth for two reasons.No, not a doctor, I chose $ over a PhD thesis, and beyond that, my expertise in a couple of exceedingly narrow areas of physics has no bearing on this discussion. Scientific expertise does not translate across fields nor even in the same course of study for most folks. A single paragraph in a 800 page undergrad quantum physics book became my focus of study for a multitude of years... but a recent undergrad could likely blow me off a race course wrt the other 799.8 pages in the same book, much less other areas of physics.
Getting back to the scripture issue.
Genesis 2:7 makes a compelling case for ensoulment via breathing
But then you have a complication in Isaiah 42:5
And yet there is Ezekiel 37:6 too
And a bunch of others which support the Jewish teachings that life/ensoulment occurs at first breath...
And yet, there is the bit where John lept in Elizabeths womb in Luke 1:41... which poses all sorts of interesting things. How could he understand the spoken word? Would he have needed a soul to recognize Jesus, or could it be Elizabeths heart freaked out a bit which then impacted the unborn John, or could it be a supernatural thing? Its not explicit other than John leaping in the womb. This can give pause to the Genesis 2:7 text.
There is also Psalms 139:15 where things are strange, like possibly a primordial soup? and Psalms 139:14 where in God is working in the womb... and yet only 2 chapters prior, we have a blessing for infanticide in Psalms 137:9
If Captain America was actually German Stanos would still have the infinity stones.If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. Me
It's not complicated at all. The taking of human life for convenience is a immoral.Have you not read Numbers 5?
It's a complicated topic.
Abortion isn't a lesser evil, it's a crime. Taking one life to save another, that's what the Mafia does. It's a crime. It's an absolute evil. Pope Francis
If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. Me
How far back to roll the time of conception is not an unknown.Some Jewish teachings hold that ensoulment occurs at first breath, and there is scriptural support for such... but it is far from explicit. As such, to take a safe path, some will roll the time of ensoulment to a period earlier in the development cycle... but how far back it should go is an unknown
This is pretty much a red herring of the first order........ Abortion is not a crime when the woman chooses to save herself instead of her baby's life.
This is pretty much a red herring of the first order.
I challenge you to provide us with a few modern day instances where an abortion has been needed to save the life of the mother.
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