A Woman's Role

Followers4christ · Aug 1, 2006

Amilala said:
*smiles* But the bible is full of wars, stonings, rapes and many things, If we all wanted to live the way You seem to want to we would be backwards

Your talking about the old testament.No where in the new Testament does Jesus or the apostle's instruct someone to commit a stoning,rape or a war.In the leviticus laws (God's law for the jewish people) God said it was ok for the people to stone prostitutes and homosexuals.But when Jesus came into this world he gave us new instruction to live by until he returns.Jesus said those who have not sinned throw the first stone.God said love your enemies who persecute you and do not take revenge in to your own hands.God said to live humbly and with peace with everyone.The old testament is sill very useful it tells us about future events still to happen and it has alot of knowlege.If you read read Daniel and Ezekiel (New testament Revelation and matthew 24) it tells you about future events.Psalms and proverbs are my best books for they have alot of knowledge in them ,The old testanent also tell's of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.God Bless sister

Isaiah 53:5"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."

Tuffguy · Aug 2, 2006

No where in the OT does it tell someone to rape anyone. Thats just rediculous.
Stoning is justified capital punishment.

Timyone · Aug 2, 2006

come join the salvos, become a minister, then you can try and become the head of the whole place

sorry im not a major help on the women issue, but i think you should start by getting to know the bible and leading bible study's.

bliz · Aug 2, 2006

Followers4christ said:
As I said a good Christian husband will take his wife's advise and sometimes summit to her,Just as abraham did for sarah.But If he does not take her advise she should summit for the husband is the head.When he does not follow her well-considered advice, she accepts his decision with good will. If it turns out that she was right and he wrong, she does not gloat. In other words, she pulls her own weight and yet shares his burdens in true obedience to Galatians 6:2- 5. When she lives out her life as her husband's true helper, seemingly receiving no glory or favor of her own, she will be abundantly blessed, and she will never be alone. Her family will praise and bless her as with the godly woman of Proverbs 31, whose price is above rubes. Nor will she lose her own creativity but it will rather abundantly bloom and bear fruit.God Bless sister

1 Corinthians 11:3"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

Ephesians 5:21 does not say "Submit to one another, except for husbands who are only to submit to wives "sometimes" and only when they think it is wise to do so." The whole Ehesians painta a beautiful picture of mutual submission. You are describing something else.

Still looking for that passage on "husband is final decision maker". You are hardly the only pone to propose this idea, I just wonder where the basis is for it in the Bible.

Followers4christ · Aug 3, 2006

bliz said:
Ephesians 5:21 does not say "Submit to one another, except for husbands who are only to submit to wives "sometimes" and only when they think it is wise to do so." The whole Ehesians painta a beautiful picture of mutual submission. You are describing something else.

Still looking for that passage on "husband is final decision maker". You are hardly the only pone to propose this idea, I just wonder where the basis is for it in the Bible.

Yes Ephesians paints a beautiful picture,but you can not disregard what the other book's say about this.If you read all these scriptures it paints a beautiful picture of Godly women who summit to their husbands (1 Peter 3:5-6,Colossians 3:18,Titus 2:5,1 Corinthians 11:3,Ephesians 5:22-24,1 Timothy 2:11-14,1 Corinthians 14:34-35).But Godly men would sometimes summit to their wives for what ever reason,weather he knew she was right on an issue or he submitted out of love for his wife.

About what you said about a scripture on"husband is final decision maker".In 1 Corinthians 11:3 that men are the head of women.What in your opinion does it mean to be the head of something? What does it mean to be in "Full submission" (1 Timothy 2:11-14) ? What does it mean to submit in everything (Ephesians 5:22-24) ?.God Bless Sister

Tuffguy · Aug 3, 2006

bliz said:
This notion of the husband having the "final say" is fairly recent. Do you have any scripture that speaks to that point?

If the husband has the "final say" then the husband is not submitting to his wife, as per Ephesians 5:21

Someone is always the leader. You can't have two captains on a two person ship. Sure you listen to your 1st mate, but you have to make the final decision.
No organization on earth works without someone with the final say. Not business, not military, not government.... someone HAS to have the final say or nothing gets done.

Tuffguy · Aug 3, 2006

bliz said:
This notion of the husband having the "final say" is fairly recent. Do you have any scripture that speaks to that point?

If the husband has the "final say" then the husband is not submitting to his wife, as per Ephesians 5:21

Wow, exactly what Bible are you reading from???? This is what it really says...

Ephesians 5:19-2319 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. Ephesians 5:1-2323 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

In the very chapter you posted is says for the wife to submit to the husband.

bliz · Aug 3, 2006

Followers4christ said:
Yes Ephesians paints a beautiful picture,but you can not disregard what the other book's say about this.If you read all these scriptures it paints a beautiful picture of Godly women who summit to their husbands (1 Peter 3:5-6,Colossians 3:18,Titus 2:5,1 Corinthians 11:3,Ephesians 5:22-24,1 Timothy 2:11-14,1 Corinthians 14:34-35).But Godly men would sometimes summit to their wives for what ever reason,weather he knew she was right on an issue or he submitted out of love for his wife.

You bring up Ephesians 5:22, but ignore 5:21! 5:21 commands all of us to submit to one another.

About what you said about a scripture on"husband is final decision maker".In 1 Corinthians 11:3 that men are the head of women.

I Corinthians 11 is all about corporate worship, not about the man/woman relationships in general.

What in your opinion does it mean to be the head of something?

To me it is not clear. If husbands are to have the ultimate authority, (headship) why does God command all belivers to submit to all other belivers, which would include husbands and wives?

What does it mean to be in "Full submission" (1 Timothy 2:11-14) ? What does it mean to submit in everything (Ephesians 5:22-24) ?.

Well, that's exactly my question, since that is what we are all called to do in Eph. 5:21, the premise statement for the rest of the chapter. We dcan't ignore that verse, even though it seems, at face value, to conflict with other verses.

There are verses that say "Wives submit to husbands." No argument from me. But the church has been ignoring the command to all of us to submit to one another, which must include husbands submitting to wives.

bliz · Aug 3, 2006

Tuffguy said:
Someone is always the leader. You can't have two captains on a two person ship. Sure you listen to your 1st mate, but you have to make the final decision.
No organization on earth works without someone with the final say. Not business, not military, not government.... someone HAS to have the final say or nothing gets done.

First, a marriage is a partnership of two people, not a ship with a whole crew of people. It is beyond me why 2 people must designate one of the two as the leader.

Second, many organizations work just fine without one person having the final say. My husband and I have been doing it for almost 30 years now. Business partnerships do not indicate that one person in the partnership has the final say while the other equal partner does not. Quaker churches and organizations, including major universities, as well as many other non-Quaker groups, work on a concensus model. The decisions makers will come together and work together until there is agreement among all. Roberts Rules of Order is not the only way to conduct business.

If there is a marriage between two Christians, isn't God the head of that marriage?

bliz · Aug 3, 2006

Tuffguy said:
Wow, exactly what Bible are you reading from???? This is what it really says...

Ephesians 5:19-2319 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. Ephesians 5:1-2323 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

In the very chapter you posted is says for the wife to submit to the husband.

I have never argued that wives do not have to submit to husbands. It is very clear that they do.

And it is equally clear that they are not the only ones who are to be submitting. v 21 covers that. It does not say "Submit to one another."*

*unless one is the husband and the other is the wive, then only the wife needs to submit.

How did Christ love the church? He died for the church - giving up His earthly life and His authority and His relationship with God - in other words, giving up all He had. That is how husbands are to love their wives, giving up all they have. What are wifes to do? Submit to husbands totaly, giving up all they have.

The Bible calls for mutual submission between a husband and a wife.

Amilala · Aug 3, 2006

Tuffguy said:
Stoning is justified capital punishment.

Tuffguy · Aug 3, 2006

bliz said:
I have never argued that wives do not have to submit to husbands. It is very clear that they do.

And it is equally clear that they are not the only ones who are to be submitting. v 21 covers that. It does not say "Submit to one another."*

*unless one is the husband and the other is the wive, then only the wife needs to submit.

How did Christ love the church? He died for the church - giving up His earthly life and His authority and His relationship with God - in other words, giving up all He had. That is how husbands are to love their wives, giving up all they have. What are wifes to do? Submit to husbands totaly, giving up all they have.

The Bible calls for mutual submission between a husband and a wife.

I honestly can't figure out what you're talking about. You say you know its clear that wives must submit to there husbands and then you say there should be mutual submission? I think we're discussing semantics.

Christs love for the church is many things, but its not one of submission. Giving your life, still isn't a sign of submission, its respecting and loving the other person so much that you would die for them.

I still haven't see a business modle that doesn't have someone giving the final say. I've always either been the boss or been bossed around. Managers make the decisions or lead the team to make decisions with either respect or outright commands.

bliz · Aug 3, 2006

I still haven't see a business modle that doesn't have someone giving the final say. I've always either been the boss or been bossed around. Managers make the decisions or lead the team to make decisions with either respect or outright commands.

Then your experiences have been somewhat limited, and you are allowing your personal limitations to play a big part in how you understand Scripture. That's a dangerous position to argue from, and an even more dangerous point to live from. (REsearch concensous management and Theory Z and bear in mind that when we are talking about a marriage, we are talking about 2 people.)

Tuffguy said:
I honestly can't figure out what you're talking about. You say you know its clear that wives must submit to there husbands and then you say there should be mutual submission? I think we're discussing semantics.

What is unclear about mutual submission? Was Paul arguing semantics when he wrote to the Ephesians?

Christs love for the church is many things, but its not one of submission. Giving your life, still isn't a sign of submission, its respecting and loving the other person so much that you would die for them.

So husbands love and respect their wives so much they are willing to die for them, but not so much that they are willing to listen to them? Hmmmmm. So then, do we just throw Ephesians 5:21 away?

Followers4christ · Aug 4, 2006

bliz said:
How did Christ love the church? He died for the church - giving up His earthly life and His authority and His relationship with God - in other words, giving up all He had. That is how husbands are to love their wives, giving up all they have. What are wifes to do? Submit to husbands totaly, giving up all they have.

The husband is told to summit to his wife out of love for her, but she must realize that he is The "Head" of the relationship.Jesus is the perfect example he as you put it "Gave all he had" For his church.But the church summited (and followed his lead) to Christ,Even though He was the shepherd (King,Leader,Head) and we were the flock he gave "all he had for us".Just as wives are told to summit to men,But the men are told to love their wive's as Christ Loved his church.The men should protect their wive's and if necessary lay down their life for their wife and children.The women should as the bible says be in "Full submission" to thier husbands.God Bless

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd.The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Antoinette.Marie · Aug 4, 2006

Followers4christ said:
The husband is told to summit to his wife out of love for her, but she must realize that he is The "Head" of the relationship.

Hmm. So does that mean my dad should stop calling my mom "The Boss?"

Wonderful post, followers4christ. Husbands should submit to wives out of love. Christ's love.

Cordy · Aug 4, 2006

Followers4christ said:
But the church summited (and followed his lead) to Christ,Even though He was the shepherd (King,Leader,Head) and we were the flock he gave "all he had for us".Just as wives are told to summit to men

According to this reasoning, a wife sould consider her husband her leader, king and Sheppard. I cannot see how this can be right. Do we live to follow Christ, our our husbands? Christ is a womans master.

We are missing the point. It is not about defining roles. These marriage passages are encouraging spouses to live in unity. I cannot believe how modern day meaning is being thrown onto a couple of words (that are sometimes not even there in the original language), which really takes things out of context, and, it appears, out of balance.

Everyone, have a loving submit to one another. If you think you are in a leadership position, it means you are all the more the servant. When both spouses have that attitude, there is no one higher than the other.

But this thread is not even about a "wife's" role, but a woman's. I can't believe how quickly such a question turns into "women -- your role is to be a submissive wife". Seriously folks, this says something about how we, as Christians, view women -- and I can't see how it is good.

JourneyRain · Aug 4, 2006

mbams said:
But this thread is not even about a "wife's" role, but a woman's. I can't believe how quickly such a question turns into "women -- your role is to be a submissive wife". Seriously folks, this says something about how we, as Christians, view women -- and I can't see how it is good.

You know that's a good point. Not all women will become wives or currently are single, so what's their role as women not as wives...is probably a better question.

Followers4christ · Aug 5, 2006

To Mbams.By obeying and honoring your husband, your obeying and honoring Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3,Colossians 3:18,1 Peter 3:5-6,Ephesians 5:22-24,Titus 2:5).Remember sister that all Scripture is written by God through his apostles (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21) and the word of God stands forever (Isaiah 40:8).You can not choose what scripture you wish to follow and disregard the rest.You either take it as a whole or do not take any of it.The husband's are to be the spiritual leader of the household.The Husband's role is to Love and serve his family,but at the same time leading his family to christ.The wife's role is to Love and willingly submit to her husband in everything,She will give her husband advice but will submit to his decision.If it turns out that she was right and he wrong, she does not gloat. In other words, she pulls her own weight and yet shares his burdens in true obedience to Galatians 6:2- 5.Marriage is a part of womanhood Right? Maybe not for some,but for many women it is.God Bless sister

Tuffguy · Aug 5, 2006

bliz said:
Then your experiences have been somewhat limited, and you are allowing your personal limitations to play a big part in how you understand Scripture. That's a dangerous position to argue from, and an even more dangerous point to live from. (REsearch concensous management and Theory Z and bear in mind that when we are talking about a marriage, we are talking about 2 people.)

What is unclear about mutual submission? Was Paul arguing semantics when he wrote to the Ephesians?

So husbands love and respect their wives so much they are willing to die for them, but not so much that they are willing to listen to them? Hmmmmm. So then, do we just throw Ephesians 5:21 away?

I hardly think my experiences have been limited. I've managed 50 people, worked in engineering, manufacturing, purchasing, global sourcing, and lived in 9 locations on the east coast. I've traveled world-wide since i was an infant. When i was young i was a grease monkey and turned into a professional with and engineering degree working on my MBA. I'm lots of things good and bad, but my experiences have been as diverse as they can be for my age.You're making up an arguement for yourself. If you'd like us all to leave so you can put words in my mouth then just say so.Listening and leading aren't the same thing. A good leader gets all the facts and makes an educated decision. That might include listening it might not, depending on the situation. My gf is perfect in the way she interacts with me. We don't sweat any of the small stuff. She makes the call on tons of things,,,most of the time i could care less since she has a good head on her shoulders and makes good decisions. With the really big stuff she wants me to take charge because i'm good at making big decisions and i think alot of the time she just doesn't want to be bothered because she respects me and my decisions. If she disagrees, thats fine, we can work it out. I don't make many bad decisions and neither does she, so it works out great. We trust each other equally.I think women (not pointing at you) that have issues with this stuff are linked up with men that are less then par decision makers. The ladies in these situations, NEED to get their input in because the men aren't living up to their responsibilities. 99% of these type of issues would go away if men would just man up, and be men.

bliz · Aug 5, 2006

Tuffguy said:
I hardly think my experiences have been limited.

If you'd like us all to leave so you can put words in my mouth then just say so.

I have put no words in your mouth. You said that you have never seen any management style other than a hierarchy. You experience with management styles is therefore, limited, in that you have only seen one.

Listening and leading aren't the same thing. A good leader gets all the facts and makes an educated decision. That might include listening it might not, depending on the situation. My gf is perfect in the way she interacts with me. We don't sweat any of the small stuff. She makes the call on tons of things,,,most of the time i could care less since she has a good head on her shoulders and makes good decisions. With the really big stuff she wants me to take charge because i'm good at making big decisions and i think alot of the time she just doesn't want to be bothered because she respects me and my decisions. If she disagrees, thats fine, we can work it out. I don't make many bad decisions and neither does she, so it works out great. We trust each other equally.

I am glad that you and your girlfriend have worked out a good method with which to make decisions. If the two of you are happy with your model: Big Decisions - man Little decisions - womanmore power to the two of you! But that does not mean that your method is the best method for everyone or that it is going to work for the two of you forever. (BTW, have you told the little lady that this is how you see your relationship working? Just wondering...)But the question of leadership is still unanswered. Why to two people need to designate one of the two as the leader? Can't 2 people take turns leading? That seems to be what you are your girlfriend do... Can't two people come to consensous on decisions? Why must one of the two be labled "leader"? It seems needless to me.

I think women (not pointing at you) that have issues with this stuff are linked up with men that are less then par decision makers. The ladies in these situations, NEED to get their input in because the men aren't living up to their responsibilities. 99% of these type of issues would go away if men would just man up, and be men.

What does it mean to "man up, and be men"?

A Woman's Role

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Love my wife, 2 sons and Daughter. God is great!!

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