A suitable place for a survey thread.

Kylie · Dec 18, 2022

I recently started a thread in the "kitchen sink" area in which I asked people if they were atheist or theist, and whether they claimed to know their belief position was correct or not. This thread was removed, claiming that discussions about religious belief are not permitted in there. The thread I started was not a discussion about any religious belief (I specifically said in the OP not to start discussions about the religious beliefs of other responders), it was simply a survey, and (I thought) more philosophical in nature, as it didn't require any discussion of any religious faith at all. A person could, after all, answer the poll and not reveal at all what faith they belonged to.

In any case, I could not see where a better option is. I can't post it in the Christians-only area of the site, and since I wanted it to spark discussion, I sought a place in the "Discussion and debate" area. I would have posted it in the philosophy section, but that has been shut down, and none of the other sections in there seemed appropriate. Nor does it seem to fit in the "Exploring Christianity" are, as that would, I think, bias the result away from a true representation of the user base of this site as most of the people who visit that area would be Christians.

Conversations with the staff member assigned to the ticket suggest that there is no suitable place for a thread of this type, and they recommended I start a thread here to encourage the creation of such a forum or sub-forum. I'm very surprised that this site, one of the largest religious discussion boards on the net, does not have a place for a thread about a survey on "Are you a theist or an atheist".

peaceful-forest · Dec 19, 2022

Maybe a new forum can be created that only has polls with zero ability to post replies to the thread.

Occams Barber · Dec 19, 2022

peaceful-forest said:
Maybe a new forum can be created that only has polls with zero ability to post replies to the thread.

Interesting idea
OB

zippy2006 · Dec 19, 2022

peaceful-forest said:
Maybe a new forum can be created that only has polls with zero ability to post replies to the thread.

CF needs to decide what sort of a site it is meant to be. A place for pure polling without any ability to discuss the polls would move the site into a rather different space than a text-based internet forum, and it doesn't make much sense to allow polling for things which are off-limits. Similarly, to move to XenForo's new styles is to move with the rest of the internet world towards a smartphone model. Sites which cater to smartphones will inevitably be catering to users with short attention spans, short posts, limited real estate to read on, etc. In effect it is a shift towards a Twitter model. I don't know if this is what CF truly desires. Maybe it is. But it is a shame that the whole world seems to be moving towards Twitter models on the basis of a sort of unthinking inertia, without forethought or deeper consideration.

Kylie · Dec 20, 2022

zippy2006 said:
This is a misunderstanding of atheism on your part. We have <had these discussions in the past>, and over time some of the atheists involved in those discussions came back to me and acknowledged that atheism is not a purely negative term, and that it connotates a positive belief in the non-existence of God. But really everyone understands that this is what is meant by the word 'atheism'. The dissenters are only a small portion of internet atheists who are involved in apologetics and who wish to obfuscate the definition in order to aid their apologetic efforts by entirely eschewing the burden of proof. What helped the atheists in those discussions to see the light was hearing fellow atheists witnessing to the obvious fact, such as on <Reddit>.

Yes, you've said some of the theists understand that atheism is not always (and rarely is) a belief that God doesn't exist and can also be a simple lack of belief in God, and @Occams Barber said some theists don't understand this. The two statements are compatible.

zippy2006 said:
But this is all somewhat irrelevant now, for CF no longer allows "apologetics," and this means that the only users on CF who are allowed to speak about atheism are theists. So given the current rules, no argument or dialogue between the two parties is permitted. Atheists no longer have a voice on CF, at least if that voice wishes to discuss their atheism. Nor, in my opinion, would it make any sense to permit polls on the topic.

I note that Christians can still discuss apologetics.

zippy2006 · Dec 20, 2022

Kylie said:
Yes, you've said some of the theists understand that atheism is not always (and rarely is) a belief that God doesn't exist...

No, I said nothing at all like that.

Kylie said:
I note that Christians can still discuss apologetics.

It makes sense that a Christian site would allow Christians to discuss apologetics among themselves. It is in no way necessary that a Christian site allow atheists to come in and do battle against Christianity. Possible, but not necessary.

Kylie · Dec 20, 2022

zippy2006 said:
No, I said nothing at all like that.

Sorry, I misread what you wrote.

In any case, I don't need a Christian telling me that they understand atheism better than I do. I know my own position on the matter, thank you very much.

zippy2006 · Dec 20, 2022

Kylie said:
In any case, I don't need a non-Christian telling me that they understand atheism better than I do. I know my own position on the matter, thank you very much.

zippy2006 said:
I've been told that atheists get to decide what atheism means and that I should just keep quiet. But atheists don't get to decide what any word means, for common usage determines the meaning of words. So let's see what the dictionaries say...

(Also, I am not a non-Christian)

Kylie · Dec 21, 2022

zippy2006 said:
This is like the human beings who won't tolerate people who call them human beings, because they believe they are cats. I believe the new word for them is "furries." But just because someone believes they are a cat or an atheist does not mean they know what a cat or an atheist is. Human beings are renowned for ignorance and a lack of self-knowledge. As I noted in my last, the meaning of the word "atheist" is not determined by your personal beliefs. And if someone can't handle being told that their beliefs are mistaken, then internet forums are probably not the best place to be, especially when they are an atheist on a Christian forum. All of the Christians on this forum believe that your beliefs are mistaken. If CF had a rule against telling someone that their beliefs are mistaken--a rule against disagreeing--then we would have to close down 90% of the entire forum.

(And I think this is a case in point for why CF decided to close down the apologetics forum )

There's a whopping big difference between, "I disagree with your viewpoint," and "I know your viewpoint better than you do."

zippy2006 · Dec 21, 2022

Kylie said:
There's a whopping big difference between, "I disagree with your viewpoint," and "I know your viewpoint better than you do."

I say that I know better than you do what the word "atheism" means. Again, the meaning of that word is not determined by your personal viewpoint.

I am going to take my leave of this thread. I contributed to the topic above, but now we are getting too close to apologetics for my liking. Take care.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 21, 2022

zippy2006 said:
CF needs to decide what sort of a site it is meant to be. A place for pure polling without any ability to discuss the polls would move the site into a rather different space than a text-based internet forum, and it doesn't make much sense to allow polling for things which are off-limits. Similarly, to move to XenForo's new styles is to move with the rest of the internet world towards a smartphone model. Sites which cater to smartphones will inevitably be catering to users with short attention spans, short posts, limited real estate to read on, etc. In effect it is a shift towards a Twitter model. I don't know if this is what CF truly desires. Maybe it is. But it is a shame that the whole world seems to be moving towards Twitter models on the basis of a sort of unthinking inertia, without forethought or deeper consideration.

It's probably because a lot of folks are too depressed and sexually re-oriented to really talk or chat these days, let alone read for deeper contemplation about the meaning of life. Who needs to read deeply, to research fairly or to think with integrity when **cough** there's other things and people to "do"?

Ugly but true, I know. And being the non-apologist that I am..............I say this un-apologetically.

Kylie said:
Yes, you've said some of the theists understand that atheism is not always (and rarely is) a belief that God doesn't exist and can also be a simple lack of belief in God, and @Occams Barber said some theists don't understand this. The two statements are compatible.

I note that Christians can still discuss apologetics.

You still have the "Exploring Christianity" and the "Struggling" sections.

What more do you want on a Christian Forum, Kylie?

Kylie · Dec 21, 2022

2PhiloVoid said:
You still have the "Exploring Christianity" and the "Struggling" sections.

What more do you want on a Christian Forum, Kylie?

The problem is that neither a survey of whether people are theist/atheist or a thread discussing whether atheism is just a lack of belief in God or actively believing there is no God don't really count as "exploring Christianity" or a struggle by a non-Christian.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 25, 2022

we used to have forums of that nature, but I think they were removed a while back.

All Becomes New · Dec 27, 2022

Kylie said:
beliefs

So much for Atheism being a lack of belief.

In any case, Atheism is untenable. There are so many things you have to deny in order to remain an atheist.

I'll link one example:

You're welcome.

Kylie · Dec 27, 2022

Jesse Dornfeld said:
So much for Atheism being a lack of belief.

You do realize that it is possible to believe in things without the belief in those things being a a RELIGIOUS belief, right?

Atheists have no belief in the existence of God. Why do you think that means they aren't allowed to believe ANYTHING at all? I believe lots of things, and I have many beliefs. But none of them are religious beliefs.

Or do you tell atheists that they aren't really atheists because they believe that chocolate ice cream tastes better than strawberry?

Jesse Dornfeld said:
In any case, Atheism is untenable. There are so many things you have to deny in order to remain an atheist.

I'll link one example:

You're welcome.

Oh look, a 40 minute video that's full of anecdote and stories that you posted without any description of what's in it, nor any time codes for the parts you feel are particularly relevant. How very convincing that is.

linux.poet · Jan 11, 2023

I would think that the Community Hangout forums and the Life Stages forums would be the ideal places for surveying the member base of yonder forum. In my view, a poll is not a debate.

However, the Community Hangout area is for "lighter topics" according to the forum's SOP, so I'm not sure a simple poll of atheism versus theism would be light enough for that forum. Placing said poll in one of the Life Stages forums would only survey people at that Life Stage, and not the entire board.

Community Hangout Test: Fashion Colors [Poll]
Life Stages Test (Singles Forum) : Faith Choice/Church Support for Singles [Poll]

Perhaps a simple Face the Board off the Community Hangout could be sufficient.

linux.poet · Jan 21, 2023

After giving this some more thought (and given more time for my atrophied hippocampus to retrieve a few memories from my traumatized brain) I would like to purpose a new forum for a more sound solution to this problem. Polling forums, as I remember from the last forum I have been on that had them, tend to be divisive and stir up a lot of debate. The reason is kind of obvious: one member votes for one option, another member votes for another option, and suddenly they are on opposite sides with opposing opinions.

It also may be noted that my poll in Singles inspired more discussion and contributions than my poll in Community Hangout. This suggests that a General Polls forum would be poorly attended and somewhat extraneous in terms of this board's purpose. Therefore, I instead propose that a polling forum dedicated to polls about religious and theological topics to be added under the Discussion and Debate section here.

What follows is a suggestion for a forum Statement of Purpose for said forum. Admins indeed write the SoPs for forums here, but I wanted to be very specific about what I am purposing to ensure that the new forum is not a magnet for rule violators.

Religion and Theological Polls Forum Statement of Purpose

The purpose of this forum is to host polls related to religion and theological topics that do not belong in any other forum on CF. Topics like "are you an atheist or a theist?" or "Do you believe Mormons are Christians?" belong here.

Polls that can easily belong in another theological forum should be started in that appropriate subforum. Polls about eschatology belong in the Eschatology forum, for example.

Polls about non-religious topics belong in the forums dedicated to the topic of the poll (as first choice) or in the Community Hangout if no forum exists for the topic of the poll. Polls are allowed in any forum on CF.

Special Considerations:

Polls about non-Christian religions or non-Christian practices should not use the word "support". This is a violation of the sitewide rule against promoting non-Christian religions. Asking "Do you think Mormons are Christians?" is a valid poll question, but asking "Do you support Mormonism?" is NOT.
Do not harass other members to change their vote. This is harassment and goading.
Do not make negative comments about other people's votes.
Do not "doompost" your own position just because you are the minority here on a particular topic. This flames the majority of voters who voted differently than you.
Polls must be fair, with even responses to the affirmative and negative. Polls that are obviously skewed to support a particular position will be removed by staff.
No ridiculous or humorous polls, as these may be viewed as insulting. This includes "rate my religious meme" polls. This forum is for surveying the entire memberbase of CF on religious and theological topics in a serious manner, not for spam and low-quality content.
No off-topic or trollish poll choices.

If you have any questions, please contact a moderator or an Administrator, and we will be happy to answer them.

@doughtz @St. Helens @DarylFawcett @ewq1938 @HARK!

Hopefully this proposal will bring this toward a resolution.

Kylie · Jan 22, 2023

linux.poet said:
After giving this some more thought (and given more time for my atrophied hippocampus to retrieve a few memories from my traumatized brain) I would like to purpose a new forum for a more sound solution to this problem. Polling forums, as I remember from the last forum I have been on that had them, tend to be divisive and stir up a lot of debate. The reason is kind of obvious: one member votes for one option, another member votes for another option, and suddenly they are on opposite sides with opposing opinions.

It also may be noted that my poll in Singles inspired more discussion and contributions than my poll in Community Hangout. This suggests that a General Polls forum would be poorly attended and somewhat extraneous in terms of this board's purpose. Therefore, I instead propose that a polling forum dedicated to polls about religious and theological topics to be added under the Discussion and Debate section here.

What follows is a suggestion for a forum Statement of Purpose for said forum. Admins indeed write the SoPs for forums here, but I wanted to be very specific about what I am purposing to ensure that the new forum is not a magnet for rule violators.

Religion and Theological Polls Forum Statement of Purpose
The purpose of this forum is to host polls related to religion and theological topics that do not belong in any other forum on CF. Topics like "are you an atheist or a theist?" or "Do you believe Mormons are Christians?" belong here.

Polls that can easily belong in another theological forum should be started in that appropriate subforum. Polls about eschatology belong in the Eschatology forum, for example.

Polls about non-religious topics belong in the forums dedicated to the topic of the poll (as first choice) or in the Community Hangout if no forum exists for the topic of the poll. Polls are allowed in any forum on CF.

Special Considerations:

Polls about non-Christian religions or non-Christian practices should not use the word "support". This is a violation of the sitewide rule against promoting non-Christian religions. Asking "Do you think Mormons are Christians?" is a valid poll question, but asking "Do you support Mormonism?" is NOT.

Do not harass other members to change their vote. This is harassment and goading.

Do not make negative comments about other people's votes.

Do not "doompost" your own position just because you are the minority here on a particular topic. This flames the majority of voters who voted differently than you.

Polls must be fair, with even responses to the affirmative and negative. Polls that are obviously skewed to support a particular position will be removed by staff.

No ridiculous or humorous polls, as these may be viewed as insulting. This includes "rate my religious meme" polls. This forum is for surveying the entire memberbase of CF on religious and theological topics in a serious manner, not for spam and low-quality content.

No off-topic or trollish poll choices.

If you have any questions, please contact a moderator or an Administrator, and we will be happy to answer them.

@doughtz @St. Helens @DarylFawcett @ewq1938 @HARK!

Hopefully this proposal will bring this toward a resolution.

I like that idea.

A suitable place for a survey thread.

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