A real basic athiest argument

An argument I've heard a lot of Christians use is "How can the world, the universe, everything exist if there is no God to create it?". As in the only explanation for anything existing is that God created it.

I wonder though, this creator, whoever that may be, how can they just exist. Surely if for a universe to exist then a creator must make it, then for a creator to exist then he must have been made by someone else?

No one can answer this! (Just kidding)

To say that God had a creator before Him is to say that He isn't God. It also says that God has limits, which He dosen't.
The following is my answer to someone with a similar question as yours.

2 King said:

Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was.
Physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.
Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.

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mysterious_w said:

An argument I've heard a lot of Christians use is "How can the world, the universe, everything exist if there is no God to create it?". As in the only explanation for anything existing is that God created it.

I wonder though, this creator, whoever that may be, how can they just exist. Surely if for a universe to exist then a creator must make it, then for a creator to exist then he must have been made by someone else?

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Man is finite, God is infinite.

This creation is full of beginning and endings. God is the beginning and ending of all things. He is beyond time entirely.

It is "nothingness" which is the true "paradox", not being. This world God has so thoroughly hidden Himself that man can actually be amazed at the paradox of Being - even though he is - and not at the paradox of "not being".

The whole of creation is but as in a single tree, we live within that tree and are bound to the subjectivity of it. We know of growth, of change, of eventual fruit, of roots, and of eventual death. But we do not know of other trees, nor the one who tends the forest.

God has made us outside the subjectivity of creation, of being created creatures, and brought us into the objectivity of true Being: and it is for this we were always intended.

It's funny, even when I was agnostic I never had a problem with the idea of an eternal God. It almost seems kind of intuitive that there should be something which simply "is", and if that is true, it seems more likely that that something would be intelligent mind rather than mere matter.

Before the Big Bang theory was solidified, people from the ancient Greeks up to modern astrophysicists like Fred Hoyle had no trouble believing in an eternal universe. So if eternal matter and energy didn't present an intellectual problem for atheists, I don't see why eternal mind should.

the more you learn about science the more likely you are to believe that their are too many constants in the universe for all of it to be random. Physics points the way to a creator more than anything I have ever seen.

According to kabbalah, god is the non material world. ( basically ) which has existed forever.
And that the creation, of the material world, was a thought of god.

mysterious_w said:

I wonder though, this creator, whoever that may be, how can they just exist. Surely if for a universe to exist then a creator must make it, then for a creator to exist then he must have been made by someone else?

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Don't atheists who have really thought about the matter come to the conclusion that some things just existed, and if not, some things just happened? Or they just walk away from the problem leaving it hanging? It is not a stretch to believe in something uncaused, though it is hard to wrap the brain around, no matter who or what you believe was uncaused.

mysterious_w posted in message #1 of this thread:

As in the only explanation for anything existing is that God created it.

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Greetings.

The only explanation for anything existing in addition to God is that
God created it; that's why atheists have no excuse for not believing
in God: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
excuse" (Romans 1:20). "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no
God" (Psalms 14:1).

mysterious_w posted in message #1 of this thread:

Surely if for a universe to exist then a creator must make it, then
for a creator to exist then he must have been made by someone
else?

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Actually, that is not the case, because God is uncreated; he is
existence itself: "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14); "in him we live,
and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28); "by him all things
consist" (Colossians 1:17). Everything that has been created has
been created by God: "All things were made by him; and without
him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3).

Why does God have to be created? And the one before that and the one before that? You see the effect of creation so there has to be a cause. What about the cause and effect issue?

The concept of God is truly hard to get your mind around, isn't it. But, even though we understand very little about His total nature, the fact is that He has revealed certain aspects of Himself and continues to do so. In Old Testament times, He chose the Israelites (only He knows why) to be the people through whom He revealed His personal nature to the world. They faithfully kept the record of what He did for and through them.

Heb. 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

We learn that He is stern, a righteous judge, jealous, holy, eternal, the only true God, Creator of the universe. And also that He is true, faithful, and a loving provider to those who follow Him.

Then in New Testament times, He revealed much more of His character in the person of Jesus Christ.

Heb. 1
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Now, one can look at the world, the universe, it's beauty and complexity, and reasonably come to the conclusion that it was not an accident, but God chose to make things a little bit clearer for His creation, man, speaking through the Biblical writers. On top of that, He put in all men an innate curiosity about God, a desire to know of Him. That is why even self-professed atheists converse about and are even inquisitive about God. Of course they also dismiss the concept of God as so much foolishness, the right to do so, God, in His wisdom and love, has given them. This then is another example of the immensity of God, giving men the right to refuse Him. But God also calls this man a fool, and eventually, because God has standards that have to be upheld, He will have to deal with this denial.

But God is not unreasonable about it. He has given all of us a choice.

Is. 1
18 “ Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,

“ Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword”;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

The fact is that if you give your intellect and your doubts over to God in faith, he will in due time clear up many of the mysteries and questions that you have. He will open your eyes to those things that will help your faith in Him grow. Every Christian starts at that point. I pray that you will too.

mysterious_w said:

An argument I've heard a lot of Christians use is "How can the world, the universe, everything exist if there is no God to create it?". As in the only explanation for anything existing is that God created it.

I wonder though, this creator, whoever that may be, how can they just exist. Surely if for a universe to exist then a creator must make it, then for a creator to exist then he must have been made by someone else?

Click to expand...

The answer is simple. Nothing brought him into existence. He has always existed. He is the uncaused cause. Think about it. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes. It’s like having an infinite line of dominos falling one after another. If you go back infinitely in time to try and find the first domino that started it all, you’d never find it because you’d have to cross an infinite amount of time to get to it which is impossible to do. This would also mean that there you can’t have an infinite regression of causes. Furthermore, this would mean there would never be a first cause. If there is no first cause, then there can’t be a second, or a third, and so on and you wouldn’t have any of them falling at all. But since they are falling, there had to be a first cause, that itself was uncaused that started the whole thing moving at a specific time in the past. So too with the universe. It was caused to exist at a specific point in time. The uncaused cause is God, who decided to create the universe and who, as the Bible says in Psalm 90:2, “is from everlasting to everlasting.”

In my experience, atheists do not like the Big Bang theory. The theory creates "a beginning" for the material universe. Which is consistent with "In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now according to the "laws" of physics, as we currently understand the "laws" nothing could have caused the bang to bang. The nothingness should have stayed a singularity. But some transcendent cause, caused the bang to bang. So when you ask an honest atheist, "What caused the Big Bang" you get various versions of "Something other than God." So the question we must ask ourselves is "What created this "something other than God?"