A re-examination of nothing

Phinehas2 · Feb 20, 2008

It would be good to consider that there are no new arguments being presented in this re-examination. All have been studied and discussed at length. If one reads for example the debates between Gagnon and Wink, all these arguments are thrashed out. These arguments include both sides of the argument ..all the claims that same-sex sex isnt condemned from the gay theologians such as Scroggs and McNeil and the theologians who were gay such as Boswell.

The bottom line is all the challenges to the translations of passages such as 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, Lev 18 & 20, Genesis 19 etc. have all been made and refuted. One is left with either believing same-sex unions are condemned most strongly, or they arent.
For those who dont believe same-sex unions arent condmened, ther eis still them nothing in the Bible that countenances them and a stark absence of any countenance. On top of this one then has to deal with Genesis 2, Matt 19, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7, where God's purpose in creation is woman for man in union, with celibacy offered as the alternatve.

When I debate this issue, one pro-same-sex poster says the passage means one thing and another says something else, both merely to disprove what the passage actually says, they are not seeking the truth but seeking to overturn the truth.
Its the second biggest deception currently in the church after pluralism, and incidently the pro-gay contingent are usually the pluralists as well.

tulc · Feb 20, 2008

Again, two different religions here. The Bible is the word of God to us and not you because we recognise that it is at least all inspired by God, yet it also contains the words of Jesus Christ who spoke what He heard the Father God saying. For you to say the Bible isn’t the word of God is a direct denial that it contains the word of God, not only given to man by inspiration and directly, but through God Himself.

Uhmm that may be what you heard but that's not what she said.
she said:

The Bible is not God's word to us. The Bible is the word of men INSPIRED by God... huge difference.

What in her statement says what you said it says? In fact I'll go one better: what in her statement is even wrong?
tulc(needs some coffee)

davedjy · Feb 20, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear Davedjy,

Its not even a leap, its fairly obvious, especially as 1 Tim 1 refers to the law, and as this is a list of sins with fornication and adultery its about as much proof as one needs.

If it was so obvious, why is it that there are different translations of it, and even from different Bible translations?

if the word is so obscure the how come you told me it was male and beds?

It is accurate, and other translations say homosexuals or homosexual practictioners. But you still haven’t answered my question, do you consider the NIV ‘the Bible’ or ‘a Bible’?

It is unknown, because I only gave you what the word means broken a part, you still don't put that together and get "homosexual". A promiscuous man was another sound interpretation (a male who goes from bed to bed). Seeing that interpretation should make you understand why a word meaning "Male" and "beds" still can mean something other than homosexual. As stated, it was universally translated as those who touch at the time of Martin Luther. I do not trust the NIV, whole parts of it have had to be thrown out in the past, so in answer to your question, I don't believe it to be an accurate Bible version.

Also as to faulty translations, please give me some examples please of some of the faulty translations and interpretations of the Bible… but on other instances rather than homosexuality, or is it just homosexual practice you are trying to justify?

Already answered: Male pimp, male prostitute, promiscuous male, those who touch, etc.

Trying to "justify" something is irrelevant to this debate forum, but many here don't try to justify anything about explain their beliefs.

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

Greek, "koit" is the direct derivative to "coitus", sexual intercourse. "Arsenokoitai" definitely refers to a male having sexual intercourse with another male.

How convenient to ignore the obvious...

davedjy · Feb 20, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Greek, "koit" is the direct derivative to "coitus", sexual intercourse. "Arsenokoitai" definitely refers to a male having sexual intercourse with another male.

How convenient to ignore the obvious...

There is only one male (singular) in the word, and even your own God-inspired translators do not all agree on that translation (hence the male pimp, masturbator, and male prostitute translations).

At best, you have demonstrated only ONE usage of the word Koitai, but there are actually 3. Even if you got that correct, you still cannot prove that there is more than one male involved.

tulc · Feb 20, 2008

Matthew 19:16-30
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?
17 So He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He said to Him, Which ones?
Jesus said, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
20 The young man said to Him, All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?
21 Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?
28 So Jesus said to them, Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My names sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

So you don't believe that the scriptures above are saying that it is hard for a rich man to get into heaven?

I believe that.

You don't believe that alot/most rich people place that wealth above God, and aren't able to put God first and have riches?

I also believe that.

Do you believe that if we take these scriptures with the ones that speak about people loving money and also trying to love God explain each other?

Yes.

Do you not believe that what is simple being pointed out here is that, you can't have two master because you will love the one and dispise the other?

I don't believe you can have two masters.

You don't believe that the scriptures are saying that without God no one can get into heaven?

No I do believe the scriptures say that.

Can I ask what you do think they are saying?

I believe they are saying exactly what they say, we can't serve the World and God at the same time.
What also I believe is I have often heard sermons preached about taking the Bible literally, but when the subject of selling all and following Him comes up, suddenly THAT Scripture isn't so much taught as explained away. Imagine of John 3: 16 was explained the same way?
tulc(is that clearer?)

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

davedjy said:
There is only one male (singular) in the word, and even your own God-inspired translators do not all agree on that translation (hence the male pimp, masturbator, and male prostitute translations).

At best, you have demonstrated only ONE usage of the word Koitai, but there are actually 3. Even if you got that correct, you still cannot prove that there is more than one male involved.

Seeing as one can't "koit" oneself, one must assume Paul meant one on one! Paul's smart that way, eh...

Danyc · Feb 20, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Seeing as one can't "koit" oneself, one must assume Paul meant one on one! Paul's smart that way, eh...

Why not?

To have sex with oneself is generally a reference to masturbation.
I would also point out, strange as it may be...some men are capable of having literal 'relations' with themselves...if you get what I mean.

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

Danyc said:
Why not?

To have sex with oneself is generally a reference to masturbation.
I would also point out, strange as it may be...some men are capable of having literal 'relations' with themselves...if you get what I mean.

koit=intercourse. Birds and bees talk required here?

savedandhappy1 · Feb 20, 2008

Hi everyone.

Back in August some of you might remember me asking for prayer because a family friend was accidently shot by her husband on her sons birthday. She was killed instantly.

Well our crazy cops arrested the husband last night for 2nd degree murder.

The husband has many health problems which are life threating. In fact they stopped paying for his wifes life insurance and put all their money on life insurance for him. They had even made all the arrangements for his death and burial.

Anyhow I may not be on line much to try and help them, so if I miss a post please understand.

Please pray for my friend his 18 year old daughter and 14 year old son as they go through this nightmare that has been going on since August. Also lift his mother and brother up in prayer also. Thanks.

tulc · Feb 20, 2008

Hi everyone.

Back in August some of you might remember me asking for prayer because a family friend was accidently shot by her husband on her sons birthday. She was killed instantly.

Well our crazy cops arrested the husband last night for 2nd degree murder.

The husband has many health problems which are life threating. In fact they stopped paying for his wifes life insurance and put all their money on life insurance for him. They had even made all the arrangements for his death and burial.

Anyhow I may not be on line much to try and help them, so if I miss a post please understand.

Please pray for my friend his 18 year old daughter and 14 year old son as they go through this nightmare that has been going on since August. Also lift his mother and brother up in prayer also. Thanks.

Praying Sis!
tulc(and for you as well!)

EnemyPartyII · Feb 20, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear EnemyPartyII
Again, two different religions here. The Bible is the word of God to us and not you because we recognise that it is at least all inspired by God, yet it also contains the words of Jesus Christ who spoke what He heard the Father God saying. For you to say the Bible isn’t the word of God is a direct denial that it contains the word of God, not only given to man by inspiration and directly, but through God Himself.

*rolls eyes* Fine, if you want to play semantics... PARTS of the Bible, noteably those attributed to Christ, are the words of God.

The rest is the word of men.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 20, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
*rolls eyes* Fine, if you want to play semantics... PARTS of the Bible, noteably those attributed to Christ, are the words of God.

The rest is the word of men.

2 timothy 3:16 , don't pick this apart please.

And on the masturbation subject, that is a very broad word also, and could mean anything outside of standard sexual intercourse (the kind that gets ya pregnant, ya know?)

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
*rolls eyes* Fine, if you want to play semantics... PARTS of the Bible, noteably those attributed to Christ, are the words of God.

The rest is the word of men.

That is just not the truth. Every word in the Bible is God-breathed.

You don't have to believe it, but it is so just the same.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 20, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
Since you are giving concrete definitions then what do you say about the other definitions for the word 'koitai'? it's not like the dictionary only lists one possible definition. Here are some examples of compound words using koitai and that do not mean beds.
In these examples it is referenced as a term indicating sexual action. There are other examples of a non-sexual nature as well.
POLUKOITOS sleeping with many men or women, ADELFOKOITIA incest of brother or sister,KLEYIKOITHS seeking illicit sex, MHTROKOITHS incestuous person, i.e. with mother.

The 'promiscuous man' argument falls short against 'pornoi' which is mentioned earlier in the verse, and there is no reason to believe paul is being redundant here.

Just thought I"d requote this since no one addressed it. Is it not relevant?

EnemyPartyII · Feb 20, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Greek, "koit" is the direct derivative to "coitus", sexual intercourse. "Arsenokoitai" definitely refers to a male having sexual intercourse with another male.

How convenient to ignore the obvious...

"coitus" derives from "koit"... you have it backwards.

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
Just thought I"d requote this since no one addressed it. Is it not relevant?

Very relevant!

EnemyPartyII · Feb 21, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
That is just not the truth. Every word in the Bible is God-breathed.

You don't have to believe it, but it is so just the same.

God breathed=God inspired, NOT God dictated.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 21, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
2 timothy 3:16 , don't pick this apart please.

And on the masturbation subject, that is a very broad word also, and could mean anything outside of standard sexual intercourse (the kind that gets ya pregnant, ya know?)

I wasn't the poster refering to masturbation.

Floatingaxe · Feb 21, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
God breathed=God inspired, NOT God dictated.

Yes, Christians already know that. Your point is...?

A re-examination of nothing

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