A re-examination of nothing

tulc · Feb 19, 2008

So you don't believe that the scriptures above are saying that it is hard for a rich man to get into heaven?

No actually I do believe that.

You don't believe that alot/most rich people place that wealth above God, and aren't able to put God first and have riches?

No actually I believe trying to accumulate wealth is a trap.

Do you believe that if we take these scriptures with the ones that speak about people loving money and also trying to love God explain each other?

Like that one where people say "It's the LOVE of money that's the root of evil, so as long as I don't love money I can spend my whole life accumulating as much as possible!"? that way they can get around the scripture instead of obeying it?

Do you not believe that what is simple being pointed out here is that, you can't have two master because you will love the one and dispise the other?

I actually believe it is indeed saying that.

You don't believe that the scriptures are saying that without God no one can get into heaven?

Uhmm that's what I am saying.

Can I ask what you do think they are saying?

The Scriptures? I think it's saying "Wealth is a trap, we are called to serve another master." If you mean Christians who are firm about "Being gay is a SIN!" but have no trouble trying to figure out ways to get around scriptures they find...inconvenient? Not a clue.
tulc(let me know if anything I said was unclear, I'll try and explain better if it was)

Floatingaxe · Feb 19, 2008

The Scriptures? I think it's saying "Wealth is a trap, we are called to serve another master." If you mean Christians who are firm about "Being gay is a SIN!" but have no trouble trying to figure out ways to get around scriptures they find...inconvenient? Not a clue.
tulc(let me know if anything I said was unclear, I'll try and explain better if it was)

I am intrigued...

savedandhappy1 · Feb 19, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
Love your neighbour, judge not lest you be judged, let him without sin cast the first stone, blessed are the peacemakers...

Sounds pretty tolerant to me.

Define love, please, because if I love someone I'm going to do my best to keep them from making a mistake that could physically and/or spiritually kill them.

I think we have already went over the judge not lest you be judged scripture. Do you want me to go over it and the other scriptures that speak of righteous judging along with those scriptures that say if a brother/sister is sinning to correct them bring them back and save a souled?

So when did I try to stone anyone here? When did I ever say that I was without sin? In fact I have said more then once quite the opposite, so why would you try to suggest that I have done this? Why would you want to try and make others that read and post or not post think this?

So is keeping the peace more important than saving someone from hell? Is being PC more important than keeping a brother/sister from going down a wrong path and maybe taking someone with them?

So you believe that the Church should turn a blind eye to sin, and if they don't they aren't being tolerant and are prejudice?

savedandhappy1 said:
Since the whole point is someone willfully sinning and the Church turning a blind eye to it, and/or joining in on it, I wouldn't know why we would be talking about tolerance or prejudice.

P.S. The scriptures I was referring to was the one I posted about the churches, just in case you misunderstood what I meant.

savedandhappy1 · Feb 19, 2008

tulc said:
Like that one where people say "It's the LOVE of money that's the root of evil, so as long as I don't love money I can spend my whole life accumulating as much as possible!"? that way they can get around the scripture instead of obeying it?

Could you please tell me how or where you find this in the scripture we are talking about? Below is my question again in case maybe you misunderstood it, and I will add the scriptures I was referring to in case that is the problem.

savedandhappy1Do you believe that if we take these scriptures with the ones that speak about people loving money and also trying to love God explain each other? [/QUOTE said:
Matt. 6:19-24
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

tulc said:

Uhmm that's what I am saying.

Click to expand...

savedandhappy1 You don't believe that the scriptures are saying that without God no one can get into heaven? [/QUOTE said:

I'm sorry are you agreeing with my statement that without God no one can get into heaven? I'm tired and part of me says you are agreeing and part of me says you are saying that the scriptures aren't saying that.

tulc said:

The Scriptures? I think it's saying "Wealth is a trap, we are called to serve another master." If you mean Christians who are firm about "Being gay is a SIN!" but have no trouble trying to figure out ways to get around scriptures they find...inconvenient? Not a clue.

tulc(let me know if anything I said was unclear, I'll try and explain better if it was)

Click to expand...

Again, I'm alittle confused about this quote. Where are you going with the "If you mean Christians who are firm about "Being gay is a SIN!" but have no trouble trying to figure out ways to get around scriptures they find...inconvenient? Not a clue.

You referred to the scriptures about the the rich man in Matt.19:16-30, as being something that people interpretate to mean something different than what they say, so I ask you what you thought it was saying.

Also is there some scripture you think I am trying to figure a way to get around because I find it inconvenient?

Thanks for trying to make this clearer for me. I hope it is just that I'm tired, but some of your responces just weren't clicking for me, sorry.

Click to expand...

EnemyPartyII · Feb 20, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
People who know God know that the Bible is the source of His Words to us. Deny the written Word and you deny Him.

Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Fine, word of God is alive and powerful...

doesn't say anything about the Bible being the word of God though, does it?

EnemyPartyII · Feb 20, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
I enjoy all of those sciences.

The Word of God and the knowledge given me by God trumps the secular conclusions that we see peppered throughout study's resulting literature.

If you enjoy all of those sciences, I'm looking forward to you providing a rational, scientifically valid and empirically based explanation that disproves evolution.

tulc · Feb 20, 2008

Thanks for trying to make this clearer for me. I hope it is just that I'm tired, but some of your responces just weren't clicking for me, sorry.

Not you're fault sis, looking over my previos post I realized I was being pretty incoherent. How about I try again in the morning?
tulc(it's kind of a pet belief of mine so I want to make it clear)

Brieuse · Feb 20, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
If you enjoy all of those sciences, I'm looking forward to you providing a rational, scientifically valid and empirically based explanation that disproves evolution.

That would belong in the evolution forum

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
Fine, word of God is alive and powerful...

doesn't say anything about the Bible being the word of God though, does it?

The Bible contains the Word of God to us. Are you splitting hairs? That's boring. Christians know this stuff--we don't divide over it or clash over it. What's yer point?

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
If you enjoy all of those sciences, I'm looking forward to you providing a rational, scientifically valid and empirically based explanation that disproves evolution.

It's kind of hard to evolve in a day. Believe God and find another fun theory.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 20, 2008

*Starlight* said:
Well, not all homosexuals are sex offenders.

thats why the term 'homosexual offenders' was chosen. This translation took place after sexual identity became distinct. Another synonymous translation would be 'acting homosexuals', as not to condemn the identity, but the possible action.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 20, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
It's kind of hard to evolve in a day. Believe God and find another fun theory.

Fine. Provide scientific evidence we were created in one day?

EnemyPartyII · Feb 20, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
The Bible contains the Word of God to us. Are you splitting hairs? That's boring. Christians know this stuff--we don't divide over it or clash over it. What's yer point?

The Bible is not God's word to us. The Bible is the word of men INSPIRED by God... huge difference.

Paul sides with me on this one.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 20, 2008

davedjy said:
I already told you. "Arsen" means "male", and "koitai" means "beds", there is no proof that this word means "homosexual", it is a gigantic leap. The word is obscure and unknown. The best translation I've seen so far, is a promiscuous man.

I don't have a problem with you saying it's in the NIV, as that is fact, but that doesn't make the translation accurate.

Since you are giving concrete definitions then what do you say about the other definitions for the word 'koitai'? it's not like the dictionary only lists one possible definition. Here are some examples of compound words using koitai and that do not mean beds.
In these examples it is referenced as a term indicating sexual action. There are other examples of a non-sexual nature as well.
POLUKOITOS sleeping with many men or women, ADELFOKOITIA incest of brother or sister,KLEYIKOITHS seeking illicit sex, MHTROKOITHS incestuous person, i.e. with mother.

The 'promiscuous man' argument falls short against 'pornoi' which is mentioned earlier in the verse, and there is no reason to believe paul is being redundant here.

savedandhappy1 · Feb 20, 2008

tulc said:
Not you're fault sis, looking over my previos post I realized I was being pretty incoherent. How about I try again in the morning?
tulc(it's kind of a pet belief of mine so I want to make it clear)

Sounds real good to me, Thanks.

Goodnight.

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
Fine. Provide scientific evidence we were created in one day?

God said it. I believe Him. It's not hard, when you know Him.

Floatingaxe · Feb 20, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
The Bible is not God's word to us. The Bible is the word of men INSPIRED by God... huge difference.

Paul sides with me on this one.

Yes, the Bible is God's inspired Word to man. LOL! It's still God's Word!

Phinehas2 · Feb 20, 2008

Dear Davedjy,

I already told you. "Arsen" means "male", and "koitai" means "beds", there is no proof that this word means "homosexual", it is a gigantic leap.

Its not even a leap, its fairly obvious, especially as 1 Tim 1 refers to the law, and as this is a list of sins with fornication and adultery its about as much proof as one needs.

The word is obscure and unknown. The best translation I've seen so far, is a promiscuous man.

if the word is so obscure the how come you told me it was male and beds?

I don't have a problem with you saying it's in the NIV, as that is fact, but that doesn't make the translation accurate.

It is accurate, and other translations say homosexuals or homosexual practictioners. But you still haven’t answered my question, do you consider the NIV ‘the Bible’ or ‘a Bible’?

Also as to faulty translations, please give me some examples please of some of the faulty translations and interpretations of the Bible… but on other instances rather than homosexuality, or is it just homosexual practice you are trying to justify?

Phinehas2 · Feb 20, 2008

Dear Brieuse,

The NIV is a bible. An interpretation of the Bible. So can I assume that you don't consider the word of God and the bible as the same thing?

So if you agree the NIV is a Bible and I quote from the Bible why did you ask Maybe a bible, but not the Bible. ? Again I ask you Is a Bible still a Bible?

Phinehas2 · Feb 20, 2008

Dear EnemyPartyII

The Bible is not God's word to us. The Bible is the word of men INSPIRED by God... huge difference.

Again, two different religions here. The Bible is the word of God to us and not you because we recognise that it is at least all inspired by God, yet it also contains the words of Jesus Christ who spoke what He heard the Father God saying. For you to say the Bible isn’t the word of God is a direct denial that it contains the word of God, not only given to man by inspiration and directly, but through God Himself.

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