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Before i make a reply i would like to say that everything can be written off by you because of the way you think. Where one person sees a miracle another says what a coincidence! Essentially you are the latter.
Also please note that all religions are faiths. This means that at some point yes one does need to just believe some things. That is very hard for some people to come to grips with and you will be one of those people. you are right in saying there is no absolute test that can prove one way or the other if there is a God or not. It is a matter of faith. please don't read that and think thats a cop out because it isn't. Thats just how it is.
All the same I will answer to the best of my ability. Sorry for the long response. If you only read one bit then make it the last as that was your main question
Just to clarify are you talking about the theory of evolution or are you talking about how the world began. they are two seperate things. or are you talking about both?
in any case like a previous poster I see the complexity of the world and believe that it points to an intelligent design. That would mean a God. You said in one response that if the gases or whatever wearn't just there then neither could God. However i would say that if there is a God then they would be a supernatural being and same rules do not apply to God as to us and other matter. Therefore God could just exist while gases had to come from somewhere. Same as God would not be limited by things such as the law of gravity while we are. in any case the exact method of the creation of the universe is not something I consider that I need to know so my actual belief is that God said he created the world and he did somehow. I don't care about the somehow.
the first part of this comment reminds me of a former co-worker who said religion has been the cause of every war. I immeadiately rattled of several wars that were not started by religion. Some were started by racism. On that note I think you will find that the holocaust was actually a racism thing. The Jews were just convieniant scapegoats for peoples problems. It is also very easy to look at certain events and see the bad. However are you aware of groups made up of christians and muslims working together to help homeless and disadvantaged? There are numerous groups like this around the world. there are also groups on the internet dedicated to better understanding of other peoples religions. My wife for example is part of an internet group of christians and pagans (as in witches etc). One story from that had a girl walking away from christianity because of the way she was treted by fellow christians. The pagans strongly encouraged her to keep going in the christian faith pointing out that if it was the people not the faith that was the problem she should not give up on it. Which leads me to another point. Yes terrible things have been committed in the name of religion. Certainly in christianity and islam (the two religions I am most familiar with) they acknowledge that humans are not perfect and are capable of making mistakes or even worse deliberately twisting things around to suit them. So these acts are not neccesarily a true representation of the faith. One example is the bible does not condone slavery. it does acknowledge slavery existed at the time and it gives instructions on how to treat slaves which was an improvement on how they were generally treated. So basically it once again emphasises compassion and kindness in the way you treat people while acknowledging that you will not stopp all bad things. Indeed slavery is alive and well and these days pretty much exists to keep westerners happy. Basically anyone who eats chocolate or drinks tea or coffee is most likely supporting slave labour. (note slave labour not people paid a pittance for the work they do.)
So there will always be bad things that happen and religions are guilty at times of leaping without looking into situations. That is something that hopefully will become less frequent however with society always demanding an instant response people will continue to talk without thinking or without knowing the full story.
Finally to get to the main question!!!
I will explain where I am coming from and hopefully that will give you an answer. With a view that there is a God for reasons stated above I have often prayed and found it answered. In my last year of primary school (11 years old) the night before the athletic carnival I prayed and said God I would want to come second in the heat tomorrow not first because that would be too greedy (note: I had always in the past been in a battle not to come last). I also said I don't care where i finish in the finals as long as I come second in the heat. Well next day I qualified for the finals by coming second in my heat including for the only time in my life beating my twin brother! Naturally that could just be coincidence in your view and I happily accept that. However there have been other prayers that have been answered. i have received healing from migraine headaches and other things which I can not explain any other way. A friend of mine had a chainsaw accident and nearly cut his hand right off. We prayed and it was healed. No medical treatment. no scar at all. I also know others personally who have been blind and told there is nothing that can be done yet received their eyesight back. While some would say its just a coincidence I say isn't it amazing how coincidences happen when we pray. So essentially God has proved to me that he exists through events like this. It isn't scientific evidence I know. As to why christianity. Well that isn't so clear. I grew up in a christian house. I did at one stage tell (if you can call yelling that!) God where to go and I have learnt to question things and several times turned my back on God. Yet each time i have come back generally without intending to put myself in a position where I would.
I don't tend to worry about my actions either. not because I'm perfect as I'm far from it. I'm aware of a number of my weaknesses and they do often get the better of me. However what I have done is in the past looked at how God wishes us to be. Then I try and develop those characteristics. As I study and meet with others I learn more as well as useful techniques to help make those characteristics natural. I also don't worry in the slightest about saving people. That isn't my job. What I do do however is when talking to people about what I did on the weekend I don't mumble when I reach what I did on sunday. Also if there was a really interesting message I might mention it. Of course I don't hide that I'm a christian. I don't ram it down peoples throats and I find many people respect me for that and will ask questions about my faith. So i hardly ever initiate the conversation. I do see some christians beating htemselves up for every little behaviour they think is wrong. I hold the view that if God wants you to deal with something he will make sure you are aware of it. I knnow that from experience!
Essentially you have asked an impossible answer because no matter what anyone says you can just come back and say how do you know that is the christian God and not a god of another religion? You need to accept that even if there was a scientific test that could prove there is a God this question would still not be able to be answered. Indeed the muslim faith actually says you will be judged according to your understanding of God. That is why a muslim who becomes a christian or jew or whatever is condemned. it is considered they had the truth and they turned their back on it for a lesser truth. There are actually instruction in the muslim faith to treat christians well because we follow an Islamic prophet.
So with all due respect and no offence meant. It is simple logic to understand that there is no way to prove which faith is the right one. That is which one has the truth. One friend of mine believes there must be a God for several reasons which I won't explain. He settled on christianity because after examining different religions he thought christianity made the most sense. Essentially they are the kind of answers you will get to your question. There will not be anything more solid.
This is true. However you do seem to ignore that there are other independant sources from the Roman civilization and others that confirm many events in the bible. Astronomy also has given creedence to the story of Saul's conversion with an explanation for the bright light. Or in other words there was a bright light in the sky at the time. Also the star the wise men followed. Astronomy has also confirmed that there was indeed a star that followed that course. So in reality you need to be more specific about which bits of the bible you will debate and which you accept. by all means as you have instructed us go and do the research. Certainly I am not saying you should believe the entire bible simply because numerous events are confirmed by independant sources but certainly some are and that gives great credibility to particular sections.
Really I haven't come across any contradictions. Sure there are various passages that appear to contradict however on closer study it is not the case. i also have not seen sexism in the bible. As mentioned in my previous post there was the cultural situation (when reading the bible often reffered to as cultural context) Some do seem to believe that Paul put a blanket ban on women preaching etc. However when one looks at the cultural context and the problems happening in the church at the time we see a different story. That is why Paul in other letters is singing praises of women. In one list of people whose praises he sung about 1/3 of the people are female. now today that might seem like so what or not enough. However at the time of writing that was a huge amount.
If by asking for a 'solid' reason you mean a scientific one, you're most certainly not going to get it. Any religion is a matter of faith. You cannot prove it with empiricism. God cannot be quantified. You can't put Him in a test tube and study Him. You cannot prove His existence the way you can other things you cannot see.
However, let me see if I can give reason for my own faith. First of all, if you follow the natural laws of the universe, something cannot come from nothing. There has to be a beginning of all that surrounds us. For a religious person, that something is God. He created the universe. I accepted this premise when I was perhaps twelve. At that time, I considered my options (atheism, agnosticism, organized religion, etc). I decided that I did not find atheism to be acceptable and therefore embarked upon a four year study of world religions. I read up on everything from Judaism to Shintoism to Shamanism. I read about Islam and Wicca and Christianity. If there's a religion, chances are I read about it. As I continued reading, I found that Christianity had the best arguments for the veracity of its claims. I found the arguments sufficient and far better than arguments for the other religions I studied. And here's where faith comes in. Eventually, when it comes to religious belief, faith is all it comes down to. It's the link between scientific argument and deciding the God exists and that He exists in a particular form.
The majority of the religious come to God in a particular form because of a personal, transforming experience. An answered prayer, a miraculous event, etc. Some evidence that touches the unseen. I believe in God because I can feel the effect of Him in my life, the same way that I cannot see the wind, but I can feel it as it brushes across my arms and tugs and pushes my hair. I know that's not the answer you're looking for, but I think that you're looking for an answer that does not exist. What is sufficient for the religious is not sufficient for you, hence why you remain agnostics rather than committing a single religious practice.
My faith has several interlocking components.
a) Given the lawful nature of the physical universe it is more rational to believe that such order derived from a creator than a random process. Random lawfulness is an oxymoron.
b) I accept some limitation upon the intellect. To demand a 'logical proof' for a belief is in itself a faith based stance, that reason alone is the sole criterion.
c) Christianity gives me the most cohesive worldview that I have discovered.
d) There is an ample historical basis to accept the central core of our faith - that Jesus lived, dies and rose again.
e) There is a consistent experiential testimony over thousands of years.
These factors form the underlying and interlocking basis for a reasonable faith.
John
NZ
life is more important than an internet forum!I apologize for taking so long to return - I live a busy life which oft does not afford time for this sort of thing. I'll try to get to all of the replies made tonight, but I have a lot of work to get done, so I can't make any semblance of a promise. I doubt I'll have the time to work through them all tonight.
I'll try to make my responses significantly shorter than previously to accommodate this.
Anyhow, moving along..
Actually your thinking is at fault here. Miracles are things that should not happen as opposed to things that can happen.By the logic of your first statement, it would be a miracle rather than a coincidence that a man draw a green ticket from a large bowl full of tickets that can only afford one green ticket. It's simple probability - he had a 1/x chance to draw out the green ticket, where x is the total number of tickets in the bowl. It's bound to happen at some point. The same goes for "Please god, save me from x!" and the person having their "prayer answered." For every time this happens, there are a ridiculous number of times that it does not. Why? Simple probability. Now, if the result was anything outside the range of what would be considered possible (turning a plant into 24k gold, et cetera), maybe there would be a little more credence to it.
I could be wrong but i think I did address the point that it does not prove the christian God. That also is covered by my statement at the very beginning that there is no such test that can prove one way or the other. That is why it is a faith.With this statement, you default to the existence of a divine being. Just as easily as there could be a divine being that created everything, it could be something else entirely (if it was anything at all) -- and, on another note, does not default to the existence of a Christian god.
As I said I don't really care how the world was created. However I will say this. The creation account in the bible and the theory of evolution* can easily fit together.I support the theory of evolution as applied to the development of life. I also support 'a' theory of evolution to many other things, but they are unrelated to this topic. Evolution can and has been tested. Even the Pope has accepted it.
What you have actually failed to address despite several people mentioning it is that people do twist and distort religion to suit their own purposes. To be fair one can not attribute this to religion. One certainly can say believers need to do more to try to prevent this. Essentially what you are doing would be like me saying i know some agnostics who have mugged and assaulted people so therefore agnosticism is bad. it makes no sense to judge it on the wrongful actions of often a few. yes the crusades was the wrongful actions of a few who manipulated many.I was not suggesting that all war has been religion-based, but that many have been, certainly not excluding mainstream religions. This is not overly disputable -- it's common knowledge. People have been fighting with one another over matters of faith since pre-history.
the problem here seems to be that there was a purpose that Jesus came to earth for. He came to fulfill that. The purpose was not to end all suffering othgerwise there would be no suffering today. this is all part of reading the bible in context. Context includes purpose.You mention slavery - yes, it does teach certain things regarding that. However, if this was the word of god, would he not be condemning slavery rather than telling people to just treat them better? This sounds rather like the word of man than the word of god, in my honest opinion (however much it may be worth).
Why should there be? Do you understand how scientific studies are carried out? I do and i know it would not be feasable. To give a non-religious example look at homeopathy. Scientific studies carried out say it has no effect other than the placebo effect. The problem is that homeopathy treats individuals and their symptoms unlike conventional medicine which says we are all the same and what works for one person will work for others. If one thinks about it then it is obvious that different factors will affect what works for example body weight, diet, amount of physical activity etc. Also two people could have the same illness but have slightly different symptoms. What is the point of treating someone for a runny nose if they haven't got one but peer reviewed studies have said that is exactly what we should do.If this were the case, there should be a significant amount of peer-reviewed research indicating that those who pray are more likely to succeed than those who do not. Can you show me any such research? Are you certain that people who do not pray don't have situations as yours?
If I was to judge or condemn anybody it would be the people the bible has said i can. You do not fit in that category. In any case I do my best to avoid condeming and judging people but i am only human.I'm sure many will have a foul opinion of me (if they do not have so already) for saying this, but I will be truthful with you as you have done the same with me. I've often seen the Bible as more of a political or societal tool than as a book of religion. It uses religion as a pretext in order to draw fanaticism and instill a 'fear of god' into its believers so that they will follow its word, but is rather a book written by man to facilitate a more standardized method of interaction between peoples (unfortunately only of the same faith) and a shove to 'treat your neighbor kindly.' In other words, I've often come to the conclusion that it is more of an outdated guide to getting along with your fellow man, being kind, and coexisting. There are also many scholars who have noted similarities in it to 'fiction' works of the time, I believe, which I found incredibly unsettling while still a 'member' of the Christian faith.
This point has earned me a spot on a lot of blacklists so to speak, but I hope you're open minded enough to see how I could reach this conclusion, and not condemn me for having done so.
a) Why is it more logical to believe some magical being created everything than a random process? Why would it default to that, rather than anything else in the realm of possibilities? Ever seen a fractal? A snowflake? The carbon structure of a diamond? If not, open some math textbooks. Order can come from what is seemingly random, and does on a daily basis.
b) Logic is not faith based. If you believe so, start by picking up a dictionary, and end by giving me a reason as to why it is. Logic takes known factors, and produces a conclusion based on these factors.
c) Elaborate.
d) Oh? Give me some sort of peer-reviewed documentation that Jesus lived, died, and rose again. The Bible is not a credible source. Where is this basis?
e) There are consistent experiential testimony over thousands of years for a lot of things, not just religious experiences. People have been experiencing what we would call déjà vu for as long as humans have been in existence and called it clairvoyance. Only recently have we discovered that this is just a bug in the brain - a memory getting written to the long term prior to the short term, and our brain rationalizing it by creating false memories of having seen it happening before. This is why people who experience such phenomena have never been able to write such occurrences down before they have them - simply because they didn't foresee it, they only believed they foresaw it afterward.
Thanks.
-Ether
Well I myself was agnostic my entire life, untill I really thought hard about Christianity. I couldnt read the bible and say "oh this makes sense", matter o fact the exact opposite, I would read it and say "what a load of a bull" But here are some of the points that converted me.
First evolution, evolution is essentially unintelligent organisms LEARNING. How can something unintelligent learn. As you look at the make up of a cell, how did a cell figure it out itself? Impossible if you ask me. The complexity of just 1 cell is to much for nature to just figure out magically. Second, cells are unintelligent but at the same time, so smart that they can create such complex organisms that creatures with intelligence cant really even get a grip of the makeup. So to me evolution was a joke. And what really made the push was that the assertion of the universe has always existed in some form. So thats a leap of faith right there. If the universe can always exist, why cant a supreme being?
Second, testimony. As you read the bible you realize that every story in there is testimony. As all history is testimony from human beings. Archealogy has so far not been able to disprove the Exodus, as a matter o fact there is strong evidence in favor of it. Mass graves of young males dated around the time of Exodus, desert dwellings and large graves in the desert of sinai. So archaelogy hasnt been able to disprove Exodus, but that wasnt enough evidence for me. Now a common assertion amongst pseudo intellectuals, or intellectuals is basically that humanity was dumb in its infant years, but now things have changed due to knowlege of the molecule. This is so not true, Humanity has always been smart. So as for my next point.
Israel in its ancient existance was a mass testimony of God. How? Ok, you have lets say, 5 million people in Israel. All of them Jewish. The Jewish religion says that the Jewish people were lead out of the land of slavery by God&Moses. So thats 5 million people testifying to what their parents told them, and what their parents parents told them, and so on. In the bible it says "Tell your children, and your childrens childrens that I am the Lord your God, who lead you out of Egypt the land of slavery". So it happened. How can an entire nation to believe that they were lead of a Egypt by God if it hadnt happened? People wouldnt be told that and go "yeah ok", and then convert to Judaism. No if it were made up people would probably kill the person trying to convert them to a false religion in fear of the Gods, or some other religious reason.
Thats my reason for believing in the old testament. As for the New Testament, several reasons but here are the main reasons. Saul prosecuted christians untill one day he was blinded, and God spoke to him. Then his blindness was healed by Peter, and then was given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then he went on to write most of the New Testament. Thats solid testimony right there.
Look at how Christianity has spread, and keeps spreading. Christianity started off as a nothing religion, barely any one believed in it. But within a thousand years it multiplied into an entire continent, and then in another 1,000 years it covered 3 continents, and large parts of Africa, and parts of Asia. If Christianity didnt do something amazing it wouldnt had spread. So the History of Christianity is testimony of the existence of the Holy Spirit, further more many of us on this forum are testifying to you right now that the Holy Spirit has done something Amazing for us to.
And as for people asserting nowadays thats God is doing everything for them. It is said in the bible that a man has nothing except what is given to him from heaven. So once you prescribe to Christianity, God is at work constantly. I see what you are saying this does seem like mysticism, but once you experience the Holy Spirit and its life changing effects you will not think so harshly of this logic.
except that those conclusions are not based solely on facts but are affected by a persons thinking. I've seen both christians and people who believe in chance creation use the exact same facts to prove their case. How can it prove both sides. Simple. It depends on your starting point. I also frequently see people take facts and then leap to a conclusion. scientists, christians and others.b) Logic is not faith based. If you believe so, start by picking up a dictionary, and end by giving me a reason as to why it is. Logic takes known factors, and produces a conclusion based on these factors.
Roman documentation certainly proves he lived and records some of his works. Other faiths also record that he lived. As for rising from the dead that is different. Some other faiths would not find it convieniant. In biblical times it was very common for history to be passed on by word of mouth. this has been considered acceptable by historians for other forms of history so one should conclude it is also acceptable for faith matters. I think you have not really thought this through or you are deliberately being difficult. So let me ask you for peer reviewed documentation from that era just like you are asking for. Note from that era not recent stuff that supports a oral history.d) Oh? Give me some sort of peer-reviewed documentation that Jesus lived, died, and rose again. The Bible is not a credible source. Where is this basis?
" 2 Timothy
Chapter 2:
22 So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith,love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord with purity of heart. 23 Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. 24 A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, 25 correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they may return to their senses out of the devil's snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.
Titus9 Avoid foolish arguments, genealogies, rivalries, and quarrels about the law, for they are useless and futile. 10 After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, 11 realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned. "
Chapter 3
If I may beg a question from you? If you do not have faith to put matters in God's hands who do you rely on to fight your battles? I also might ask if a person puts their trust in God and not in man would you consider that a fair fight?
May God lead you to a deeper understanding and fullness of wisdom through his son Jesus Christ. Amen!!!
Psalm 31:17
Do not let me be ashamed, O LORD, for I have called upon You; Let the wicked be ashamed; Let them be silent in the grave.
Psalm 35:26
Let them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion Who rejoice at my hurt; Let them be clothed with shame and dishonor Who exalt themselves against me.
Ephesians 5:6-7
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count [him] as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.
2 Timothy2:16 -18
But shun profane [and] idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and [that] they may come to their senses [and] [escape] the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to [do] his will.
1 Peter 3:15-17
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always [be] ready to [give] a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. For [it is] better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
Because Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead. Not a "god" dying, rising again, dying again... in "... a land far, far away, a long, long time ago..." but a real person with a real mum and real mates in a real place on a real day was executed by those who represented all that's gone wrong in the world and came through that death and out the other side. And then he invites us to share in that death and resurrection - symbolically now in baptism and eventually for real when the whole creation is restored and evil and suffering finally eliminated.So I ask you all - what makes your faith the right one? Beyond simply saying "because I have faith", "because I was brought up like this", or the like -- give me a solid reason, if you please. Why is (are) your 'god(s)' the god(s)?
Do either of you care to explain the relevance of these scriptures you have quoted. I can not see how they are relevant
First, let me define my 'brand' of agnosticism. Simply put, there may or may not be a god, it is impossible to test for or prove.
Even if there were a god, statistically, the chance that any known faith on Earth is correct is so unbelievably small that it seems inherently strange, to me at least, that there are so many professing different faiths (or different branches of the same faith) as 'right' (for lack of a better term).
I am a strong supporter of evolutionary theory, as well.
I was raised in a Christian household, but after gaining my own world-view and traveling a bit, I stripped myself of that 'title', per se, and found that the system I now most identify with is that of a strong agnostic.
I do not believe in the organized practice of religion, as I feel this has done more harm than good, and has only bred war (the Crusades, Palestinians vs. Israelites, etc.), hate (Holocaust, etc.), and has served as a divider between peoples rather than a unifier -- aside from the obvious hindrances to scientific process even in the recent past.
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