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A Question for Creationists

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frogman2x

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Did they? Did they, really?





-Indohyus



-Pakicetus and ambolocetus



-Kutchicetus



-Rodhocetus





-Dorudon


Leet me sdhow you the error of your way. Going from the hippo to pakicetus only shows one fossil and to evolve into a different species take at least 10 intermediates.

Drawing picture of different fossil some with only 1 similar trait does not prove anything. What they showed can be better explained as separate and distinct species.

YOu continue to neglect the most important thing you need to do; explain how pakicetus and indohyus lost their legs and developed fins. Also these are drawings. did the fossil for ambulocetus show it had webbed feet? Having 4 digets is found in several land animals.

None of them had a blowhole until they became a whale. Can you explain, genetically of course, how they acquired that trait?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I am reminded of something Michael Shermer once said. It was a joke, but it contained a kernel of truth. When Creationists are presented with a gap for which they demand a transitional fossil, and that gap is filled by a transitional fossil, then the Creationist will claim that there are now two gaps.
 
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frogman2x

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The explanation of ERV's is above my scientific pay grade, so I always start with the basics. One thing I did read abut them was the word "supposed." That alawys tells me, everthing is not set in cement yet.

One basic for me is how does an offspring acquire a trait for which neither parent had the gene for. Another basic is if everthign is not the same, nothing is the same. DNA can be used not to unite species, but to separate them. It is even more defining. It can also separate humans from each other. I know we have been through this bone thing before and alhough I did not read you link, I haved had dthis same discussion in another fourm about the same thing. The link they gave me did not offer any biological evidence as how the first life form, according to the ToE, would not have had bones. So how did it ever produce a kid wih bones? Yes I know the origin of life is not technically evolution, but you still must address the problem


 
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lasthero

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Leet me sdhow you the error of your way. Going from the hippo to pakicetus only shows one fossil and to evolve into a different species take at least 10 intermediates.

Why 'at least 10'? On what basis do you go for that exact number?

Drawing picture of different fossil some with only 1 similar trait does not prove anything. What they showed can be better explained as separate and distinct species.

Only one similar trait? Now you're simply being disingenuous. There are way more than just one similar trait between each of those steps.

YOu continue to neglect the most important thing you need to do; explain how pakicetus and indohyus lost their legs and developed fins

First off, whales still have the DNA for making legs. This only makes sense if they once had them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_hedgehog

They lost their legs through lack of use. In their new environment, they moved faster and were more agile without hind legs (just like fish) and so natural selection favored whales with smaller and smaller hind limbs.

Also these are drawings. did the fossil for ambulocetus show it had webbed feet?

No, that didn't go through fossilization. However, we can tell from the composition of their bones that these creatures spent a lot of time around water, and could likely ingest saltwater without the harmful effects that most animals are subject to - which, by the way, is something whales can do, and is exceedingly rare among land animals, which will avoid drinking saltwater if at all possible, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence. At any rate, we can tell it spent a lot of time in the water both from that, and the fact that these animals are found in areas that were once estuaries.

Most animals that spend any time near water have webbed feet - amphibians, for instance, but all birds like ducks, mammals like beavers and otters, and even certain bears like Grizzlies and Polars. It's a very, very common adaption for semi-aquatic animals, and since the whales ancestors, by all indications, were semi-aquatic, it's more than reasonable to assume it, too, had this feature.

None of them had a blowhole until they became a whale.

Untrue. Well, at least not really true. In the latter steps, the nose on these creatures is moving upward.



That's basically what a blowhole is - a nose.
 
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lasthero

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That alawys tells me, everthing is not set in cement yet.

Nothing in science is ever 'set in cement'. It's always subject to change in light of new data.

. The link they gave me did not offer any biological evidence as how the first life form, according to the ToE, would not have had bones. So how did it ever produce a kid wih bones?

The link I gave you addressed this problem just fine.

Where did bone come from?


Stop pretending like this is some completely unsolvable problem that no one has ever thought up or figured out.
 
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Doveaman

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Does old earth creationism also incorporate the common ancestor of humans and other apes as demonstrated by genetics?
Yes.

Two possible explanations:

(1) The first man was created from the bone cells of a prehistoric ape just as Eve was created from the bone cells of Adam.

(2) The first man was created from the cells of a prehistoric ape just as Dolly was created from the cells of a sheep.
 
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Smidlee

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Notice every one of the creatures on the chart branches off of a Unknown Mythological Creature ; UMC. This allows evolutionist with the greatest flexibility with their story telling. The idea that A evolved to B , B to C and C to D doesn't fit the theory. There are too many examples of A and C having traits that B and D don't. So all branches joins to a UMC. So you first starts with UMC which A evolved from then later B evolved from UMC then C and finally D.
The latest whale fossil discovery has screw up even this pattern . Ancient whale jawbone found in Antarctica - Technology & science - Science | NBC News

This mean the Whale (D) evolved from this UMC before some of the immediates (B and C) that showed up later.

All you got to do to prove whale evolution is false is to prove this UMC didn't exist.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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Both of those would be a (strange) version of theistic evolution rather than Old Earth Creationism. OEC can sometimes allow for evolution, but it explicitly rejects human descent from preexisting organisms, regardless of the mechanism. Once you cross that line, you join us in the realm of the theistic evolutionists.
 
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frogman2x

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It is amusing but complely false. Show me one intemediate fossil. What it was before it was an intemediate and what it became. Please add the biology that makes it possible.
 
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frogman2x

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You need to stop spamming dishonest Creationist quote mines.

You need to stop; calling someone dishonest unless your can prove they are


Quote Mine Project: Gould, Eldredge and Punctuated Equilibria Quotes
{Even evolutionists doubt fossil record shows transformation of one organism into another}

"The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition. - Steven M. Stanley (Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, 1979 p. 39)"

Representative quote miners: Missouri Association for Creation: What Do the Fossils Say?, Institute for Creation Research: The Vanishing Case for Evolution, and Bible Believers: The Case for Evolution Has NOT Been Proved!

The quote comes from the start of Chapter 3 (see Point 5):

"Some distinctive living species clearly originated in the very recent past, during brief instants of geologic time. Thus, quantum speciation is a real phenomenon. Chapters 4 through 6 provide evidence for the great importance of quantum speciation in macroevolution (for the validity of the punctuated model). Less conclusive evidence is as follows: (1) Very weak gene flow among populations of a species (a common phenomenon) argues against gradualism, because without efficient gene flow, phyletic evolution is stymied. (2) Many levels of spatial heterogeneity normally characterize populations in nature, and at some level, the conflict between gene flow between subpopulations and selection pressure within subpopulations should oppose evolutionary divergence of large segments of the gene pool; only small populations are likely to diverge rapidly. (3) Geographic clines, which seem to preserve in modern space changes that occurred in evolutionary time, can be viewed as supporting the punctuational model, because continuous clines that record gradual evolution within large populations represent gentle morphologic trends, while stepped clines seem to record rapid divergence of small populations. (4) Net morphologic changes along major phylogenetic pathways generally represent such miniscule [sp] mean selection coefficients that nonepisodic modes of transition are unlikely. Quantum speciation or stepwise evolution within lineages is implied.[/quote]

Impled doe snot mean proven.

](5) The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid

You get to define your term. How convient. Where is the evidence for the rest of what the said? How does he know the early evolution was rapid? Even if it was , it still not not explain how the first life form produced kids with traits the parents did not have a gene for.


I never said he doubted evolution has occured. What I quoted implied he did not think the fossil recrod supported evoluiton. What evidence did he offer that there wa such a thing as "quantum speciation?" At some point an ancestral descentant MUST evolve into something it ancestor was not. Descendants do not branch off from their ancestors. The remain the exact same species.

"Major trends in evolution are the result, not of phyletic transition, but of divergent speciation. Most are phylogenetic trends: net changes produced by multiple speciation events."

As usual not biological evidende that tell HOW it is possible.

He comes to this conclusion by examining the fossil record. But the mined quote would have the reader believe that the fossil record doesn't support evolution, where as Stanley believes that it does.
The quote I quoted of his, sure makes it seem like he does. Even if he doesn't, there are other evolutionists who don't think it does. I think that is why Gould invented P.E.
 
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biggles53

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Sure -- qv please:

Deer hunter explains Jacob's 'rods'.

That's just pathetic.....the mental contortions required to accept that story would make an Olympic gymnast proud...!

Deer are completely different animals to goats.

The females were already in heat when they were brought to the troughs.

And there is most definitely a link expressed between the placement of the sticks and the outcome produced.

Just give up...
 
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AV1611VET

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Just give up...

No, thanks -- before I do that, I'll just pull rank and say: GOD DID IT, as did Jacob.

Genesis 31:9 Thus God hath taken away the cattle of your father, and given them to me.
 
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AV1611VET

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Yes, indeed.

Why wouldn't we?

It's basic math.

As I explained to Wiccan Child though, there are now two gaps, but the sum total of the distance between them is less.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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Yes, indeed.

Why wouldn't we?

It's basic math.

As I explained to Wiccan Child though, there are now two gaps, but the sum total of the distance between them is less.

Sounds like creationists would make terrible trackers. They'd be too skeptical that one footprint and the next were associated because of the gap betwen them.
 
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AV1611VET

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Sounds like creationists would make terrible trackers. They'd be too skeptical that one footprint and the next were associated because of the gap betwen them.
Sounds like evolutionists would make terrible trackers. They'd be too accepting that one footprint and the next, even though they are made by two different foots, were associated because of the gap between them.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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Sounds like evolutionists would make terrible trackers. They'd be too accepting that one footprint and the next, even though they are made by two different foots, were associated because of the gap between them.

Heh. At least we get somewhere.
 
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Forgiven777

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Heh. At least we get somewhere.

if you can call evolutionist who walk in circles tracking their own rational as getting somewhere .. well have at it...
But truth is the only thing humans and monkeys have in common is we both have the same Designer and that is God of all creation and God did not design us the same God created everything and gave everything seed after its "own kind"
( Genesis 1:1-31 )
 
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