• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A Necessity - 4 Marian Doctrines

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,229
2,592
✟266,871.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The issue Here seems to be lacking Scripture, or cultural norms ( by law) among Jews.
The mohar (bride price), the Ketubah (later) was a contract (covenant), before conjugal relations. This is what was joining together as the wife of the covenant. Therefore betrothal joined them together, and she was not a mere concubine wife, divorcement bills were necessary due to the covenant (ketubah). Mary remained the wife of covenant (ketubah) in their joining as husband and wife.
Protestant ideas or Catholic matter not. What does scripture say? IMO, we see this same distaste for scripture with Abraham and Sarah. Neither was faithless or mistakes made in giving Hagar for a CONCUBINE. No matter how deplorable one may consider such practice. Are we to sit in Judgment of the law?
Mary was the wife of the Ketubah, making her distinctly a wife as an helpmeet in the covenant.
Abraham also took Keturah after Sarah's death. She also was a concubine. Sarah was the only wife of covenant no matter how many concubines Abraham might take.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
1,318
484
Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Visit site
✟94,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Not at all. Mary was not the spiritual mother of Jesus. She contributed only to his flesh. Thus my being Jesus' brother (by faith) does not make Mary my mother in any sense. Also, it is not necessary to be "cleansed in the fonts of the Church" to be saved. Salvation is by faith alone.
 
Upvote 0

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2020
1,298
191
Southern U.S.
✟139,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Jesus didn't come to us keeping secular law, or posited law, but God's law. However even secular and posited law were kept by Mary and Joseph. Mary’s betrothal with Joseph was for the maintenance of Mary and here child; Mary need a man for her to raise the Christ Child. We can see this in the vow of Mary’s chastity, “because I know not man”. This required Joseph to decide whether or not to expose Mary as a harlot or permit her to fulfill her vow. Being a “just man” Joseph needed only a dream like visitation to convince him not to put aside Mary to be stoned to death at the gate of the villiage. A characteristic of a just man is one of selflessness and charity.

11 If the wife in the house of her husband, hath bound herself by vow and by oath, 12 If her husband hear, and hold his peace, and doth not disallow the promise, she shall accomplish whatsoever she had promised. 13 But if forthwith he gainsay it, she shall not be bound by the promise: because her husband gainsaid it, and the Lord will be merciful to her. 14 If she vow and bind herself by oath, to afflict her soul by fasting, or abstinence from other things, it shall depend on the will of her husband, whether she shall do it, or not do it. 15 But if the husband hearing it hold his peace, and defer the declaring his mind till another day: whatsoever she had vowed and promised, she shall fulfill: because immediately as he heard it, he held his peace. [Numbers 30:11-15]

Thus, Joseph accepts Mary as his wife in a platonic love transcending our physical existence. Thus, Joseph also vows chastity through his acts. Afterall what just man in Israel would touch the Ark of the New Covenant. Thus we see no customs or laws were broken.

Instead we observe this in Mary’s vow to God through the angel Gabriel “How shall this be done, because I know not man?” The New Eve, Mary, response to Gabriel is a vow of chastity. The Catholic understanding comes from the Church’s memory the historical truth that such vows were common in the first century. According to Susanna Elm, author of Virgins of God: The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity, asceticism was common. Sometimes the ascetic made vows of their physical prowess, suffering training as an athlete suffers building strength. Others made vows of abstinence, perhaps limiting food or drink, not unlike fasting. One obvious biblical example is Christ's fasting for 40 days and 40 nights.

The virgin has illustrious models to follow: the five wise virgins of Gospel of Matthew, Mary, and the famous Thecla, heroine of the Apocryphal Acts of Paul. Moreover, her bridegroom is not swayed by superficiality: 'Are you bereft of parents? You are not bereft of God. . . . Have courage, because the bridegroom Christ does not regard fading beauty...whether you are short or tall' [c. Matthew 25:1-13; Apocryphal Acts of Paul 8.105- 09, [Susanna Elm, `Virgins of God' The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity: The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity]​

St. Paul alludes to asceticism when he asks, “Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain.” [1 Corinthians 9:24]. St. Paul chastised his body in self-denial in ”subjection”. Mary and Joseph lived out her vows in the customs of Judaism dedicating their lives to God. Those who practiced a divinely inspired asceticism usually take a solemn vow in the Temple; "He who takes a solemn vow contracts a spiritual marriage with God, which is much more excellent than a material marriage" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa). Such a vow espouses Mary to God, a vow that not even the Sanhedrin can break; only Joseph can do that.

“[The] Greek present tense used for Mary’s words in Luke 1:34 corresponds…to the Hebrew and Aramaic active participle indicating a permanent condition. Mary’s words in Aramaic were ki enneni yodaat ish, the yodaat indicating a permanent condition of virginity” (Warren Carroll summarizing and quoting from Manuel Miguen’s “indispensable” work, The Virgin Birth: an Evaluation of Scriptural Evidence (p.81) in The Founding of Christendom, Vol. I, p.310).​

Manuel Miguen notices that the expression has obvious Hebrew idiomatic roots. “It is well known that the biblical language a paraphrase to describe a virgin stricto sensu [in the strictest sense] is this: “a woman who did not know man” (Gen 19:8; Jude 11:39, see verse 37; 21:12; basically the same are Num 31:10, 35; Jude 21:11 cfr. Wisdom 3:13) – which, incidentally, shows that the same expression in Luke 1:34 points to virginity proper. These are all passages where the Bible refers to women who “did not know man.” Miguen continues to point out how interesting the present tense is never used with regard to virginity in the Old Testament. Miguen further suggests that the Greek translation makes the best of the Aramaic it can by using the Greek aorist tense. [source The virgin birth : an evaluation of scriptural evidence : Miguéns, M. (Manuel) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ]

Consequently, we hear Mary to vow before the emissary of God, (in my words), ‘How can this be when I did not know a man, do not now know a man, and will never know man. ‘ Mary vows virginity in the presence of a Divine Messenger as well as expressing her own astonishment.

JoeT
 
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
1,318
484
Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Visit site
✟94,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

Except, Mary was betrothed to Joseph before the angel Gabriel spoke to her. She did not agree to marry Joseph to have a father for a child she did not yet know she was having! It was not "for the maintenance of Mary and her child."

Secondly, Mary's statement "since I am a virgin" is in the Greek present tense. It is a statement about her current state, not a pledge of future chastity.


How about a husband who loved his wife and wanted to provide for them children as was normal and not forbidden by God and would provide Jesus with siblings?


This is all wild speculation. Paul's analogy in 1 Cor. 9:24 is not about asceticism. All athletes discipline themselves in diet, training, and sleep in order to maximize their performance. They do this in the hope they will attain a prize. Do you consider all athletes ascetics? That is not the generally accepted definition of an ascetic. Simply disciplining oneself as an athlete does not make one an ascetic.


First of all, Luke was written in Greek, not Aramaic. The inspired text has her using a Greek present tense which does not indicate a permanent condition. That alone is enough to reject what is written above. In one Aramaic Bible, Luke 1:34 is translated like this:

ܐܡܪܐ ܡܪܝܡ ܠܡܠܐܟܐ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܬܗܘܐ ܗܕܐ ܕܓܒܪܐ ܠܐ ܚܟܝܡ ܠܝ
34 And Maryam {Mary} said unto The Malaka {The Heavenly Messenger}, “How can this be, because, no gabra {man} has known me?”

Notice how they render it "has known me" which is not a statement of permanence. It's saying, "How can this be since I have never been with a man?"

One must accept that the NT was written in, and inspired in Greek, not Aramaic. You act as though their Aramaic words were inspired and our reverse translation from Greek to Aramaic is what is divinely inspired. It is not. It is the Greek text that is divinely inspired. It is not an accident Luke used the present tense. He was not translating from an Aramaic original. The Holy Spirit was moving him to pick those precise Greek words. Besides, nowhere in Scripture do we see any statement saying Mary remained a virgin or pledged herself to remain a virgin. To the contrary, Scripture speaks of her having children and Jesus having siblings (yes, the RC church tries to offer alternative understandings but has no proof such alternatives are in fact accurate).


As always, the RC argument rests on a misunderstanding of the divine text, how inspiration works, and much speculation. It is eisegesis. An attempt to work backward from a conclusion to create support in the Biblical text which does not exist.
 
Upvote 0

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2020
1,298
191
Southern U.S.
✟139,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Except, Mary was betrothed to Joseph before the angel Gabriel spoke to her. She did not agree to marry Joseph to have a father for a child she did not yet know she was having! It was not "for the maintenance of Mary and her child."
The point of my post was that she had already committed to chastity. She didn't "pick" Joseph, never the less she was betrothed to him. Without Joseph the Mother of God would have been left without a protector.
Secondly, Mary's statement "since I am a virgin" is in the Greek present tense. It is a statement about her current state, not a pledge of future chastity.
"I know not man" is a Greek translation of a Hebrew idiom.

“[The] Greek present tense used for Mary’s words in Luke 1:34 corresponds…to the Hebrew and Aramaic active participle indicating a permanent condition. Mary’s words in Aramaic were ki enneni yodaat ish, the yodaat indicating a permanent condition of virginity” (Warren Carroll summarizing and quoting from Manuel Miguen’s “indispensable” work, The Virgin Birth: an Evaluation of Scriptural Evidence (p.81) in The Founding of Christendom, Vol. I, p.310).​

Manuel Miguen notices that the expression has obvious Hebrew idiomatic roots. “It is well known that the biblical language a paraphrase to describe a virgin stricto sensu [om the stroct semse] is this: “a woman who did not know man” (Gen 19:8; Jude 11:39, see verse 37; 21:12; basically the same are Num 31:10, 35; Jude 21:11 cfr. Wisdom 3:13) – which, incidentally, shows that the same expression in Luke 1:34 points to virginity proper. These are all passages where the Bible refers to women who “did not know man.” Miguen continues to point out how interesting the present tense is never used with regard to virginity. Miguen further suggests that the Greek translation makes the best of the Aramaic it can by using the Greek aorist tense. [source The virgin birth : an evaluation of scriptural evidence : Miguéns, M. (Manuel) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ]
How about a husband who loved his wife and wanted to provide for them children as was normal and not forbidden by God and would provide Jesus with siblings?
A normal marriage or siblings aren't forbidden, never suggested otherwise. Mary's perpetual virginity would seem to exclude siblings.
You seem to jump to a lot of conclusions I said St. Paul "alludes to asceticism". But yes, asceticism was more widely practiced in the first century than now. You could say that St. Paul himself had ascetic tendencies by the fact that he wasn't married.
Look, none of us know what language the book of the New Testament were written in. For all we know they were dictated in one language and scribes wrote them in another. Many believe that Matthew was first written in Aramaic and translated by Matthew himself to Greek. None of the original books have survived the ages.
As always, the RC argument rests on a misunderstanding of the divine text, how inspiration works, and much speculation. It is eisegesis. An attempt to work backward from a conclusion to create support in the Biblical text which does not exist.
Not at all, I'm appealing to reason and commonsense. The perpetual virginity of Mary is not new news, it comes to us in the second century Protoevangelium of James, in the 3rd century Hippolytus of Rome, and the Second Council of Constantinople of 553 AD where it was made doctrine of the Church. I don't contend that Mary was an Essene rather that chastity and asceticism was alive and well in Christ’s day and the historical centuries surrounding Christ birth, and her vow is just as valid as if said and recorded in the Temple.

JoeT
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
1,318
484
Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Visit site
✟94,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
She did pick Joseph in agreeing to be betrothed to him. Gabriel didn't tell her who to get betrothed to. She was already betrothed.
"I know not man" is a Greek translation of a Hebrew idiom.

“[The] Greek present tense used for Mary’s words in Luke 1:34 corresponds…to the Hebrew and Aramaic active participle indicating a permanent condition. Mary’s words in Aramaic were ki enneni yodaat ish, the yodaat indicating a permanent condition of virginity” (Warren Carroll summarizing and quoting from Manuel Miguen’s “indispensable” work, The Virgin Birth: an Evaluation of Scriptural Evidence (p.81) in The Founding of Christendom, Vol. I, p.310).[/QUOTE]​
[/QUOTE]
The first thing to note is that "I know not man" is only one possible English translation. His is a list of some of the English translations used of this verse:


Luke 1:34​


ESV And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
NIV How will this be,' Mary asked the angel, 'since I am a virgin?'
NASB But Mary said to the angel, 'How will this be, since I am a virgin?'
CSB Mary asked the angel, "How can this be, since I have not had sexual relations with a man? "
NLT Mary asked the angel, 'But how can this happen? I am a virgin.'
KJV Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
New American Bible But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” (Catholic English translation)

The Greek literally says "How can this be since a man not I know" which harkens to a Hebrew euphemism meaning "I haven't had sex." To "know" someone, in this type of context, meant to have had sexual relations with them. Mary is simply stating that she hasn't had sexual relations with any man so how could she become pregnant? Unstated is that she was betrothed to Joseph and the Law said you were to remain virgins during the betrothal period and only after marriage engage in sex. There is nothing about her statement that implies a permanent pledge to virginity.

Minor correction, your list of Scriptures in the second line above includes Jude 11:39. Jude only has one chapter. I believe you meant Judges 11:39.

There is no evidence that Luke was written in Hebrew or Aramaic. All we have or have ever found is Luke in Greek. To say it was a translation of an Aramaic or Hebrew text is pure speculation. Luke wrote his gospel, and the Book of Acts, to Theophilus who was likely a Gentile and possibly living in Rome as the title ("the most excellent") was commonly used by the Romans. Luke would not have written a Gentile living in Rome in Aramaic or Hebrew. Neither language was commonly spoken by Gentiles. Luke was a Gentile who wrote in a high, classic style of Greek showing great education. Luke knew Paul who spoke Greek so it's questionable that Luke even knew Hebrew or Aramaic much less would have written to Theophilus in them. So any speculation on what Mary's words might have been in Aramaic is just that - speculation. Luke wrote in Greek and was inspired by the Holy Spirit in his Greek writings therefore it is the Greek words and verb tenses we must stand upon not speculation about Hebrew or Aramaic expressions.

Had Luke understood Mary's statement to mean a pledge to permanent virginity he most likely would have stated that expressesly since it was not in any way implied by the Greek. Not only does Luke not plainly state that but there are NO other NT statements indicating Mary remained a virgin or had pledged herself to remain a virgin.

This is again typical RC reasoning. They start with a belief (Mary remained a virgin) and then try and build support from the Bible often by making assumptions about how something might have been said in Aramaic or based on a Latin translation when the inspired text gives no such support. They find one scholar to suggest something and state it as fact when no other scholar would agree.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,362
2,867
PA
✟334,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Don't you love these types of statements. Given that scripture does not fully teach on the doctrines of the Trinity or the Incarnation, or doesn't give us a table of contents for scripture, this type of statement is useless.
This isn't a RC issue. This is a Christendom issue. The Universal Church taught Mary's perpetual virginity, and it was broadly accepted. It was only in the mid sixth century that the Churches needed to infallibly define it. Your post displays that old heresies die a slow death.

These are the first 2 anathemas from the Council. Funny how many who call themselves Christian will accept the first teaching despite the fact that the canonical books do not fully develop the idea, but will reject the second teaching because the canonical book do not fully develop the idea. It is the height of PRIDE.


1. If anyone will not confess that the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance, that they have one power and authority, that there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons: let him be anathema. There is only one God and Father, from whom all things come, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one holy Spirit, in whom all things are.

2. If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
1,318
484
Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Visit site
✟94,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
My point doesn't prove anything but so many Marian doctrines are like this. No clear support but one forced interpretation of a single verse or word. Total silence from the rest of Scripture. Mary has become a central figure in Catholic doctrine yet she is scarcely mentioned after the Resurrection. The Trinity is clearly taught in the Bible. As is the Incarnation. Not in infinite detail but then we probably couldn't understand all the details. Mary's supposed perpetual virginity is simply not found in Scripture.


The perpetual virginity of Mary was not taught during the first 3 centuries. It wasn't until the late 300s or early 400s that some church fathers began to write about this. So it was not universally taught for three centuries. It was a later development.


The first point is taught clearly in the Bible. The council put more words around it to clarify what the Bible taught but it was there in Scripture. The perpetual virginity of Mary is simply not taught by Scripture. There is nothing there to further develop. It is a belief that came from outside of Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,362
2,867
PA
✟334,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Mary has become a central figure in Catholic doctrine yet she is scarcely mentioned after the Resurrection.
You clearly do not know Church teaching. Every teaching about Mary reveals something about Her Son. Maybe that is the hurdle you keep tripping on.

I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself. Give me the Book, chapter, and Verse of Scripture that teaches

1. That the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance.
2. That They have one power and authority.
3. That there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,786
14,236
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,426,110.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
No clear support but one forced interpretation of a single verse or word. Total silence from the rest of Scripture.
Total silence about any other children born after Jesus in the Gospel accounts of His childhood.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,786
14,236
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,426,110.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Three different gospel writers specifically mention the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, including providing the names of His brothers.
During His childhood? Really?
 
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
1,318
484
Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Visit site
✟94,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am not interested in "Church teaching", only Biblical teaching. What we know about Jesus is what is found in Scripture.

I would refer you to an excellent article by the late Dr Walter Martin. I could write something similar, and have in the past somewhere buried in this topic, but why reinvent the wheel?


Words like nature, substance, persons, etc, are not found in the Bible but are words theologians came up with to better describe what the Bible teaches. They are not new revelations not found in the Bible. All three points you make can be found in the NT and in Dr. Martin's article. It is the understanding of all the verses on the Godhead that drive us to these conclusions.

The Trinity is not an easy doctrine. It is not as plain to understand as many other doctrines. It's there though. From the OT to the NT. Church councils helped put language around it to make it more understandable but did not come up with new revelations. I applaud the work they did but I don't credit them with something novel.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,362
2,867
PA
✟334,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Punt.

I read the article and this fellow comes up short on scriptural references that helps us answer my challenge questions. A lot of opinion. And anyway, you need scripture, not opinion, you need scripture

I can see why you couldn't answer on your own. Didn't think anyone would read the article?

One last chance to answer my challenge.

Give me the Book, chapter, and Verse of Scripture that teaches

1. That the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance.
2. That They have one power and authority.
3. That there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons.

Hint: don't use the article you posted cause there is nothing in there that will help you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
1,318
484
Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Visit site
✟94,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Total silence about any other children born after Jesus in the Gospel accounts of His childhood.
As you know, Scripture says very little about Jesus' childhood. It is the subject of some apocryphal literature but not of the inspired text. The focus of the Gospels is on Jesus' ministry starting at the age of 30. We don't need to know the details of when each sibling was born to know he had siblings.

Here is my opinion on where the ever-virginity of Mary came from. Some church fathers 3-4 centuries after the time of Christ, were sitting around pondering the story of his birth. It didn't seem proper to them that the womb that bore the Savior would go on to bear regular children. They felt that would be demeaning to that womb and that woman. This was their personal reasoning. It was not taught in Scripture. So they began to teach that Mary remained a virgin thus alleviating their issue with her having other children.

This left them with some problems. How do you explain the references to his brothers and sisters? Well, they could have been cousins since the Greek word used can be used of cousins. Maybe Joseph had children from a previous marriage and was a widower when betrothed to Mary? Maybe Mary and Joseph later adopted children perhaps left by some dead relatives? While none of these alternative explanations are taught in Scripture, and the plain understanding would be that Jesus had half-siblings, to those already convinced of the perpetual virginity of Mary, the mere existence of some possible explanations was good enough for them. They also tried to make linguistic arguments based on how something might have been said in Aramaic even though the inspired text is in Greek (oh but maybe it was originally written in Aramaic and later translated into Greek...). Maybe it was orally given in Aramaic but the scribe then wrote it down in Greek. Such thinking denies God-inspired the written text. Apparently only what the speaker verbalized was inspired but not what the Scribe wrote. That is a troubling thought since many of Paul's epistles were dictated to a scribe. If only Paul's spoken words were inspired then how do we know the scribe wrote them down faithfully?

These men and the RC church ever since have been trying to work backward from human beliefs about Mary to find support in the Bible. They rely on obscure arguments and "it's possible" type arguments rather than looking at the plain teaching of Scripture. Such arguments came centuries later. The Catholic faithful believe them because they believe their church is THE church and cannot err. Those of us who stand on Scripture alone, must protest and declare these doctrines unscriptural. They are the inventions of men. I have no problem believing Mary had other children. It does no disservice to Mary. Children are considered a great blessing in the Bible. Why wouldn't God's Son have siblings? Why do we continue to put virginity on a pedestal when the Bible does not? There is nothing superior for a married woman to remain a virgin. God created us to reproduce and commanded us to do so. Gabriel did not instruct Mary of Joseph to never consummate the marriage. It would be normal and natural for them to have gone on to have their own children.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,362
2,867
PA
✟334,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I applaud the work they did but I don't credit them with something novel.
You applaud them for the work they did on stuff you agree with. The same people you applaud on further defining the Trinity further defined the virginity of Mary, and you reject them on Mary only. Ok then.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,786
14,236
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,426,110.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Last edited:
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,786
14,236
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,426,110.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You on the other hand have started with your belief that Mary had other children, based on your own interpretation of Scripture, and have constructed the above from your imagination, including a few strawman arguments.
Their family was not normal or natural. No other family has ever raised the creator of the universe as a child in their home.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,786
14,236
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,426,110.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
There is enough in the Gospels about Jesus' childhood to recognise there is a complete absence of siblings mentioned. At the age of 12 when He had stayed back at the Temple, Luke doesn't say that Joseph and Mary left their children in the care of others and went back to Jerusalem. Are you claiming they didn't have any other children until Jesus turned 12. According to you they had at least 6 other children. If they started having children after Jesus was born, as Protestants are wont to interpret Matthew 1:25, at least one of them would have been nursing still and Mary could not have left her child with others in order to go look for Jesus.
 
Upvote 0