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A global flood is simply untenable

Ragdoll

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Funny how people here keep referring to iridium when the highest concentrations of iridium should be located within the impact zone of the Chicxulub asteroid. However, iridium concentrations are higher in other parts of the world far away from the Yucatan region. What do all these iridum regions have in common? They are all located in volcanic zones. Volcanoes give off iridium emissions which is why they are finding iridum in volcanic zones. During the Flood there would have been volcanic activity as well and lava would be and is found in the fossil record. What does all this mean? It means the source of the iridium comes from volcanic acticity and not from an asteroid that never impacted in the Yucatan. It never happened. There are countries with much higher concentrations of iridium. But if indeed an asteroid did impact in the Yucatan you would find the highest concentration of iridium there. But its not there. What is there are many volcanoes. There is your answer. Volcanoes.
 
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truthpls

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For one thing, no one thought it was worth mentioning new species popping up monthly.
Someone said they do?
Seems like something someone would notice.
For another thing, it would only be needed if you altered Genesis to make the flood a global flood.
No. It might come in handy for other things as well.
For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own.
The world wasn't joined together?
So yet another unscriptural miracle to save the new doctrine?
God planning things is unscriptural?
I guess if we can call in miracles as needed, why not just imaginary technology, too?
I agree
 
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The Barbarian

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For one thing, no one thought it was worth mentioning new species popping up monthly.
Someone said they do?
Hundreds of thousands of species... less than 10,000 years. Do the math.
Seems like something someone would notice.
For another thing, it would only be needed if you altered Genesis to make the flood a global flood.
No. It might come in handy for other things as well.
Can't see any reason. For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own.
The world wasn't joined together?
Ten thousand years ago? No. But many thousands of miles is still a long hike for Koalas. Worse for platypuses. Why not just accept it God's way, and all this difficulty goes away?
(suggestion of a miracle whenever things seem impossible)
So yet another unscriptural miracle to save the new doctrine?

God planning things is unscriptural?
Man ordering up miracles to save their faulty stories is unscriptural. God isn't making up your stories. Other men did, and convinced you that they were speaking for God.
(suggesting that Noah had special technology for waste)

I guess if we can call in miracles as needed, why not just imaginary technology, too?

So, how about trying your story without inventing new miracles or imaginary technology? What do you have?
 
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The Barbarian

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Funny how people here keep referring to iridium when the highest concentrations of iridium should be located within the impact zone of the Chicxulub asteroid.
Would be, if the object hadn't exploded on impact. Blew material over the entire Earth.

However, iridium concentrations are higher in other parts of the world far away from the Yucatan region. What do all these iridum regions have in common? They are all located in volcanic zones.
No. If that was the case, we wouldn't see it in the same age deposits when many of those locations had no active volcanoes. Worse for your theory, the Deccan Traps which involved volcanism over an entire province of about 200,000 square miles at the end of the Cretaceous, should have abundant iridium in those deposits. But...

Geophysical Letters

A search for iridium in the Deccan Traps and Inter-Traps

R. Rocchia, D. Boclet, V. Courtillot, J. J. Jaeger

First published: August 1988

Abstract

It has been suggested that flood basalts in the Deccan (India) might be associated with events at the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary (KTB). A search for iridium in 47 samples from lava flows and inter-trap sediments in the Deccan yields negative results. Concentrations are not statistically different from zero, with a minimum detection level on the order of 0.1 ng.g−1 (ppb).

One would think we would see at least as much iridium in the Deccan traps as there is elsewhere. It doesn't absolutely rule out iridium coming from the traps, but it seems unlikely, especially when...

Science Advances Vol. 7, No. 9

Globally distributed iridium layer preserved within the Chicxulub impact structure

Abstract

The Cretaceous-Paleogene (K-Pg) mass extinction is marked globally by elevated concentrations of iridium, emplaced by a hypervelocity impact event 66 million years ago. Here, we report new data from four independent laboratories that reveal a positive iridium anomaly within the peak-ring sequence of the Chicxulub impact structure, in drill core recovered by IODP-ICDP Expedition 364. The highest concentration of ultrafine meteoritic matter occurs in the post-impact sediments that cover the crater peak ring, just below the lowermost Danian pelagic limestone. Within years to decades after the impact event, this part of the Chicxulub impact basin returned to a relatively low-energy depositional environment, recording in unprecedented detail the recovery of life during the succeeding millennia. The iridium layer provides a key temporal horizon precisely linking Chicxulub to K-Pg boundary sections worldwide.

Far as I know there is one case of iridium being found in large amounts in volcanic eruptions.

Science
9 Dec 1983

Iridium Enrichment in Airborne Particles from Kilauea Volcano: January 1983

Abstract

Airborne particulate matter from the January 1983 eruption of Kilauea volcano was inadvertently collected on air filters at Mauna Loa Observatory at a sampling station used to observe particles in global circulation. Analyses of affected samples revealed unusually large concentrations of selenium, arsenic, indium, gold, and sulfur, as expected for volcanic emissions. Strikingly large concentrations of iridium were also observed, the ratio of iridium to aluminum being 17,000 times its value in Hawaiian basalt. Since iridium enrichments have not previously been observed in volcanic emissions, the results for Kilauea suggest that it is part of an unusual volcanic system which may be fed by magma from the mantle. The iridium enrichment appears to be linked with the high fluorine content of the volcanic gases, which suggests that the iridium is released as a volatile IrF6.
 
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truthpls

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For one thing, no one thought it was worth mentioning new species popping up monthly.

Hundreds of thousands of species... less than 10,000 years. Do the math.
Seems like something someone would notice.
Might even make a good cave drawing
For another thing, it would only be needed if you altered Genesis to make the flood a global flood.
Noted. So if we can prove that the bible flood was global will you renounce evolution?
Can't see any reason. For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own.
Would they sit on some icy mountain?
Ten thousand years ago? No. But many thousands of miles is still a long hike for Koalas. Worse for platypuses. Why not just accept it God's way, and all this difficulty goes away?
Ah there is that dating thing again. I think it is OK in this forum to believe what the bible says. The dates are pretty well known to within a reasonable window. How you dream date your way out of that is really not part of my belief set. It has come to my attention that posters may not call your system for dating a belief or religion. I guess all I can say is that I have my own beliefs, thank you very much
(suggestion of a miracle whenever things seem impossible)
So yet another unscriptural miracle to save the new doctrine?
How about God calling the animals to the ark and then closing the door? Are they 'unspcriptural miracles' also?
Man ordering up miracles to save their faulty stories is unscriptural.
Man denying the miracles God did is unsciptural
God isn't making up your stories. Other men did, and convinced you that they were speaking for God.
(suggesting that Noah had special technology for waste)
Proof man made up the bible?
I guess if we can call in miracles as needed, why not just imaginary technology, too?
Why limit God who designed the ark to being an imbecile?
 
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Ragdoll

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The philosopher says there was no Flood. Then to prove there was no Flood the philosopher says all the species of animals we see today could not fit on the ark. But the philosopher is deliberately twisting the reality of the situation by using thousands of years of micro-change to make his case here in the present now.
There was not as many species back before the Flood as there are today. What was there were original species and not all the different dog breeds there are today. So lets skip over the philosophy and just look at the facts.

The Flood is supported by every ancient antiquity in the world. Geology proves it with all the marine fossils at the peaks of mountains and whales up in the Andes (and yes, up in the Andes since the fossils are found on a slope of the mountain and the entire region of that mountain is dry desert). The fossils are all found in sedimentary rock which is formed by the erosive force of water,

I need not say anything more.
 
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BobRyan

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The process of speciation - is observable. And it does not take 1000's of years to get a new species.

"after 250 years of professionals documenting thousands of new plants and animals every year, the rate at which new species are discovered remains relatively stable. Somewhere between 15,000 and 18,000 new species are identified each year, with about half of those being insects."

And of course "what IS a new species" is somewhat subjective. Take a look at all the dog breeds - variations in face, paw, hair, tail ...etc yet not "a new species".

"However, that number is somewhat misleading: it also includes the correction of taxonomic mistakes, movements from one family to another, and decisions that will end up being overruled in years to come."

"Technology has led to even more animals being identified. New species today are regularly detected through DNA. Often, two species live relatively near to each other and look exactly alike, which means they were formerly categorized as only one genus. But analyzing their DNA shows enough dissimilarities in their genes to now classify them as separate species."

 
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The Barbarian

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Might even make a good cave drawing
I'd be open to your evidence that evolution went on at super speeds just until humans had writing, and then stopped just as they were able to write about it. What do you have?

Noted. So if we can prove that the bible flood was global will you renounce evolution?
First, the Bible doesn't say it was global. And since we observe the phenomenon of evolution happening today (and you have endorsed hyperfast evolution after your "global flood", there really isn't any point, is there?

Can't see any reason. For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own.

Would they sit on some icy mountain?
They would die on icy mountains. The Mountains of Ararat wouldn't have to be very high, but koalas would have to cross some icy mountains to get to Australia. Kangaroos seem rather unfit to climb mountains, too. This turns out to be a much larger problem for your new doctrines than I realized at first.

Ah there is that dating thing again. I think it is OK in this forum to believe what the bible says.
If so, why do you feel the need to insert a "global" flood into the Bible?
How about God calling the animals to the ark and then closing the door? Are they 'unspcriptural miracles' also?
If it's in the Bible, how do you figure it's "unscriptural?

Man denying the miracles God did is unsciptural
Man adding new miracles to fix problems with one's eisegisis is very unscriptural.
Proof man made up the bible?
It's proof many have added their own ideas to scripture and attributed them to God.
Why limit God who designed the ark to being an imbecile?
That would be an unkind description of YE. I think they believe in a great God, not an imbecile. They are just uncomfortable with an omnipotent God capable of creating the Earth to bring forth life as He intended.
 
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truthpls

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I'd be open to your evidence that evolution went on at super speeds just until humans had writing, and then stopped just as they were able to write about it. What do you have?
I would be open to looking at how evidence is interpreted, but it is not allowed here. I have my beliefs, thanks
First, the Bible doesn't say it was global. And since we observe the phenomenon of evolution happening today (and you have endorsed hyperfast evolution after your "global flood", there really isn't any point, is there?
That point is hardly worth debating.

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart
It doesn't say God was sorry that man in some city were there. It is obvious what the flood was all about.
Can't see any reason. For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own.
You are welcome to opinions of what you think was or was not likely
Funny all animals were on mountain at first in the ark and did fine
Man adding new miracles to fix problems with one's eisegisis is very unscriptural.
I think someone said this is not a forum to defend Christianity. Guess I'll let that one go
That would be an unkind description of YE. I think they believe in a great God, not an imbecile. They are just uncomfortable with an omnipotent God capable of creating the Earth to bring forth life as He intended.
Maybe they prefer God to say what He means.
 
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The Barbarian

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I would be open to looking at how evidence is interpreted, but it is not allowed here. I have my beliefs, thanks
I can respect someone who admits the evidence, but prefers their understanding of scripture.

That point is hardly worth debating.
Yes, unless someone makes an idol of one particular interpretation, insisting that others must believe it to be saved.
It doesn't say God was sorry that man in some city were there. It is obvious what the flood was all about.
The known world to whom He had made himself known. Remember, the Hebrews didn't know that humans had emerged in many places. This is no more a problem for Christians than the statement that the sky has windows in it from which rain falls. Figurative language is open to God as He wills.

Can't see any reason. For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own.

You are welcome to opinions of what you think was or was not likely
Well, having seen them, and knowing what they need to survive, it's hard for me to picture a pair of them hiking over mountains, trying to figure where the next eucalyptus tree might be so they wouldn't starve. They would die on icy mountains. The Mountains of Ararat wouldn't have to be very high, but koalas would have to cross some icy mountains to get to Australia. Kangaroos seem rather unfit to climb mountains, too. This turns out to be a much larger problem for your new doctrines than I realized at first.
Funny all animals were on mountain at first in the ark and did fine
Thats assuming what is proposed to be proven.

Man adding new miracles to fix problems with one's eisegisis is very unscriptural.

I think someone said this is not a forum to defend Christianity.
Well, that one was so egregious, I figured I'd step up and make a defense.

That would be an unkind description of YE. I think they believe in a great God, not an imbecile. They are just uncomfortable with an omnipotent God capable of creating the Earth to bring forth life as He intended.

Maybe they prefer God to say what He means.
The problem seems to be that they would prefer God to say what they mean.
 
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truthpls

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I can respect someone who admits the evidence, but prefers their understanding of scripture.
Hope you find someone like that then. I have my own evidence criteria and standards
Yes, unless someone makes an idol of one particular interpretation, insisting that others must believe it to be saved.
We are to be convinced in our own mind. I am.
The known world to whom He had made himself known. Remember, the Hebrews didn't know that humans had emerged in many places. I do not see why not. Not like they were dumb and never traded etc.

This is no more a problem for Christians than the statement that the sky has windows in it from which rain falls. Figurative language is open to God as He wills.
Correction it does not say the sky has windows. Had.
Can't see any reason. For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own.
Ever seen a pic of Pangea? There is no reason to think that animals did not migrate all over.
Well, having seen them, and knowing what they need to survive, it's hard for me to picture a pair of them hiking over mountains, trying to figure where the next eucalyptus tree might be so they wouldn't starve.
Not sure why anyone would imagine today's weather and conditions for then. But feel free to imagine whatever you like
The Mountains of Ararat wouldn't have to be very high, but koalas would have to cross some icy mountains to get to Australia. Kangaroos seem rather unfit to climb mountains, too.
In your scenario perhaps. In reality who really knows what has changed. By the way, I suppose I can't rule out that some folks traveling by boat took a few cute koala like animals and came ashore down what is now Australia way. I have no need to know how. I see no problem whatsoever in the many scenarios I could (as you do), imagine.
I think they believe in a great God, not an imbecile. They are just uncomfortable with an omnipotent God capable of creating the Earth to bring forth life as He intended.
He intended it go exactly as He gave us the record is went.
The problem seems to be that they would prefer God to say what they mean.
I won't kid myself to believe that creation did not happen as the bible says. You are welcome to do so.
 
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The Barbarian

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Correction it does not say the sky has windows. Had.
You think the world in Noah's time was flat and covered by a dome with windows through which rain fell? Seriously?

I won't kid myself to believe that creation did not happen as the bible says. You are welcome to do so.
The problem is you had to add lots of things to God's word to make it acceptable to you. Thinking that maybe humans scooped up just marsupials and monotremes and then transported them all the way to Australia pretty much tells us how far you're reaching to make reality fit your wishes.
 
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truthpls

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You think the world in Noah's time was flat and covered by a dome with windows through which rain fell? Seriously?
Never said that,
The problem is you had to add lots of things to God's word to make it acceptable to you.
No. We don't add things to heaven when guessing what it may be like. Not to Genesis when guessing on some details. We believe.
Thinking that maybe humans scooped up just marsupials and monotremes and then transported them all the way to Australia pretty much tells us how far you're reaching to make reality fit your wishes.
You do realize they still do that? It is called the pet industry. Goods and services did not start when you were born. The problem with some people is that they limit the way they envision the past in that they leave God out.
 
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Ragdoll

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There is a whole lot of misinterpreting going on here. For one, The Hebrew never teaches solid sky. There are over 68 sphere/globe earth verses in the Bible. Translation also matters. There are many translations that are not translated by real translations. You see, what many translators do is make a new translation based on a previous English translation. Sounds bad, even pathetic, but its sadly true. Some translations are even politically driven.

However, the sky is stronger then metal. That is what the verse is saying. Hugh Ross.is a fake scholar. He is not respected because he is far removed from the kind of mental and spiritual disciplined known among scholars before him.
|


Also, the word dome never appears once in the Bible. If your translation says done then throw it away. The word does not exist in any reference to the shape of the earth. Now is the earth like a dome? Sure it is. That is why we have planeteriums. But nowhere in Hebrew, Greek or Latin do we find dome. That is a modern fabrication by modern scholars who had more training in politics then they did translating a Bible.





I do believe there was a topic on this forum where someone answered this skepticism. I think that is where I got these memes. But I do know how to defend this topic as well.
 
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The Barbarian

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Correction it does not say the sky has windows. Had.
You think the world in Noah's time was flat and covered by a dome with windows through which rain fell? Seriously?
Never said that,
But a literal reading that allows for the sky to have windows, also allows those other things as well. You accept some of it but not all of it. For what reason? The problem is you had to add lots of things to God's word to make it acceptable to you.

But you do. And you're selective in the things you chose to believe, even in your own interpretations.

Thinking that maybe humans scooped up just marsupials and monotremes and then transported them all the way to Australia pretty much tells us how far you're reaching to make reality fit your wishes.

It is called the pet industry.
So you figure Ham was particularly fond of non-eutherian mammals, herded them over mountains, deserts and across seas to Australia and set up a pet store?

Well, that's ... creative.

I'm assuming Ham; because the Bible only mentions areas of the Middle east as settled by the sons of Noah, it's not entirely clear from whom the rest of the world would be populated in a literalist re-interpretation.
 
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truthpls

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It was a mod I think that pointed out this was not a place to defend Christianity or some such. Not sure why you are airing doubts that have no support when no one can mop the floor with your arguments here?
 
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The Barbarian

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It was a mod I think that pointed out this was not a place to defend Christianity or some such.
You do realize that assuming things like a flat Earth and a solid dome sky with windows in it to be literally true because the Bible mentions them in passing, is not "defending Christianity", right?
Not sure why you are airing doubts that have no support when no one can mop the floor with your arguments here?

So no windows in the sky, ever?
 
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truthpls

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You do realize that assuming things like a flat Earth and a solid dome sky with windows in it to be literally true because the Bible mentions them in passing, is not "defending Christianity", right?
Not sure why you are raising a false issue as if it were associated with me, or helped your beliefs?
So no windows in the sky, ever?
Yet we have the bible. Your opinion is not the authority
 
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The Barbarian

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You do realize that assuming things like a flat Earth and a solid dome sky with windows in it to be literally true because the Bible mentions them in passing, is not "defending Christianity", right?

Yet we have the bible.
Which, as you see, is often using figurative language.
 
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truthpls

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You do realize that assuming things like a flat Earth and a solid dome sky with windows in it to be literally true because the Bible mentions them in passing, is not "defending Christianity", right?
I doubt this is a thread to raise false arguments about what the bible says.
Which, as you see, is often using figurative language.
Often that is just language which adds to the physical by including a spiritual component rather than takes away from anything. It is also clear when no such language is used or inferred. So the flood is not untenable according to the bible. That leaves you with your interpretation of physical evidence. I will interpret as I see fit, thanks.
 
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