Btw, I thought you would infer this, but I take even the usage of the word *land* as meaning the earth. It comes down to your interpretation of "sayings of the wise".
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Btw, I thought you would infer this, but I take even the usage of the word *land* as meaning the earth. It comes down to your interpretation of "sayings of the wise".The 1560 Geneva Bible does not overrule Herbew usage. Sorry.
Neither do you. Sorry again. If God meant "world", He would have used "world" (tebel)
Instead He said "land" (eretz). "Under Heaven" was an old figure of speech first used when the Hebrews assumed a flat earth with a solid domed sky over it, with windows through which rain could fall. Above that, they assumed water and then Heaven. So it came to mean "as far as the eye could see" or "everywhere." But once the Hebrews realized the world wasn't flat, it no longer had a literal meaning.
Conflating "land" and "world" seems to be the problem, doesn't it?Btw, I thought you would infer this, but I take even the usage of the word *land* as meaning the earth.
By Jesus' time, every educated Jewish person knew the world was round. I wouldn't call that "modern." I can assure you, the world is round. And the ancients knew it. The initial assumptions made by the Hebrews about the structure of the Earth were not the norm in Jesus' time.The progression of the Hebrew language which you describe is not to my knowledge evident in the writings of Scripture. Again, you are relying on modern progressions and explanations.
Long before Jesus was born, people knew the world was round. That is ancient knowledge.Changes or so called modern discoveries often are used against the Bible with an intended net effect of loosening the reign or governance of God and His word over our lives.
But people will put their own interpretations on things written long before Jesus.Jesus said...heaven and earth may pass away, but my words shall never pass away.
God used the wordConflating "land" and "world" seems to be the problem, doesn't it?
Assuming things not in evidence will mislead you.
Doesn't creating the land mean earth...usage again.Conflating "land" and "world" seems to be the problem, doesn't it?
Assuming things not in evidence will mislead you.
Peter didn't use "tevel" either. You see, the koine Greek κόσμος (today it means "world") was then used to mean "the Roman Empire."Peter in the Greek uses *world* to describe the flood...after discovery of earth being round.
Even the birds of the air were destroyed by the flood...quite miraculous.God used the word
Doesn't creating the land mean earth...usage again.
Peter in the Greek uses *world* to describe the flood...after discovery of earth being round.
It seems you are being misled by modern assumptions.
Animals that can fly – such as many insects, bats and birds – may be able to escape. But their success will also partly depend on the scale and severity of weather systems causing floods.Even the birds of the air were destroyed by the flood...quite miraculous.
I suspect that you don't actually believe what the literal Word says:WilliamLhk said:
God said He "destroy[ed] every living thing" "that I have made," except for the ones in the ark. Gen. 7:4, 23; 8:21 Only possible if the flood was universal over all earth. You are the one who is confused.
So "in the beginning God created the land," according to you. Which was not the whole tebel. Hear the Word according to the Barbarian.
And God was not being fully truthful when He said He "destroy[ed] every living (lit.standing)thing" "that I have made," except for the ones in the ark. Right. (To further clarify, God defined that which would die would be "all in whose nostrils was a breath of a spirit of life, all that was on dry land..." 7:22)
I'll stick to what the literal Word says, without latter day revisions of men. Especially those who revive the serpent's first recorded words, "Did God really say...?" Ones always wanting to sow doubt.
In the text of the Flood-story, there is nothing to indicate that the Flood was - from a more modern POV - global. The Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians & Egyptians had no true notion of the extent or form or population of the world; so it is not clear why the Biblical texts should, uniquely, be free of similarly limited conceptions. From the POV of the author(s) of the text, and of the traditions that contributed to forming the text, the Flood was no doubt universal. It does not follow, that generations blessed with a more adequate knowledge of geography must also regard the Flood as universal. There is no obligation for modern Canadians, Japanese, Maori, Scots and Zulus to have the same geographical notions as the ancient Jews, merely because the ancient Jews knew and suspected nothing of those nations.Too many species, too many mouths to feed. And if you're YEC you have over 1,000 species of dinosaurs and therapod dinosaurs to contend with. And frankly we are definitely on their menu. The Ark would need warehouse sized food and water storages. And what about waste disposal? The stinkiest ark to have ever sailed the global sea. Have you ever driven past a cattle farm but imagine that on a larger scale in an enclosed space? I think Christianity especially the Fundies, may need to accept that the flood was a massive regional one and likely a passed down oral tradition that may grew alittle larger each time it was taught and that was eventually became canonized by Moses and the ancient scribes. But furthermore, it fits the pattern of Yahweh's judgment of the nations throughout the Old Testament. In fact, both Jesus and Peter drew comparisons between the Flood and the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 itself a regional, national judgment.
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You suspect (project) wrongly.I suspect that you don't actually believe what the literal Word says:
So you have a response for the solid sky dome of biblical cosmology and the ancient near east?
The entire response hinges on the idea that the waters above are clouds. However this directly contradicts scripture, as noted in the video I've posted.Stop Saying the Ancient Israelites Believed the Sky Was a Big Solid Dome with a Heavenly Sea Above It
The heavenly-sea interpretation imposes an alleged ancient quasi-scientific physicalistic theory of the heavenly sea on the text.www.thegospelcoalition.org
Also, I'm sure the individual you've sourced is a nice guy, but he doesn't actually have any credentials in old testament studies.The entire response hinges on the idea that the waters above are clouds. However this directly contradicts scripture, as noted in the video I've posted.
Genesis 1:7 NRSVUE
[7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
[16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. [17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,
As we can see. The Bible states that the waters are above the raqia, with the stars set in or inside the raqia. Meaning that the response article has to deny what scripture says, that the waters above are above the sun, moon, and stars.
Also, the article assumed that windows and doors of heaven, opening and closing to let water through, are just figurative language. This however of course wouldn't do YECs much justice. Pointing out that Genesis uses figurative language really defeats the whole alleged "literalism" of YECs. And the writer of the article doesn't justify their assumption either.
Also, we have records of Jews and early church fathers that understood the waters above, not as clouds, but as literal water of an ocean. Same with Egyptians, babylonians, mesopotamians, and more.
Also, Genesis says that the raqia formed in the midst of the waters. With waters above and waters below. The waters below were gathered to form the seas. Meaning that the waters above, likewise are water, not clouds.
It doesn't say waters below and clouds above. It says, in the midst of the waters with waters above and below.
Also, Hebrew scholarly consensus would also disagree. The entire old testament describes ancient near east cosmology. Take the following verses for example, it's not just Genesis:
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6
God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7-8
And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11
the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2
And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20
And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12-13
“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4
and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10
Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14
He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10-11
Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18
Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18
can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18
Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13
Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.
Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4
The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20
The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10
Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23
you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3
He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7
To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6
Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4-6
Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1
Isaiah 24:18
[18] Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4
It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22
Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22
And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26
And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1
He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-29
The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1
“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4-6
The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8
Earth resting on pillars. The circle of the earth. Under God's feet is pavement of sapphire stone. Over the heads of the cherubim is a dome shining like crystal. Sheol with the rephaim in the underworld.
Job 37:18
can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
To say that the sky isn't solid in the Bible, is to blatantly ignore half the old testament.
The entire response hinges on the idea that the waters above are clouds. However this directly contradicts scripture, as noted in the video I've posted.
Genesis 1:7 NRSVUE
[7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
[16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. [17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,
As we can see. The Bible states that the waters are above the raqia, with the stars set in or inside the raqia. Meaning that the response article has to deny what scripture says, that the waters above are above the sun, moon, and stars.
Also, the article assumed that windows and doors of heaven, opening and closing to let water through, are just figurative language. This however of course wouldn't do YECs much justice. Pointing out that Genesis uses figurative language really defeats the whole alleged "literalism" of YECs. And the writer of the article doesn't justify their assumption either.
Also, we have records of Jews and early church fathers that understood the waters above, not as clouds, but as literal water of an ocean. Same with Egyptians, babylonians, mesopotamians, and more.
Also, Genesis says that the raqia formed in the midst of the waters. With waters above and waters below. The waters below were gathered to form the seas. Meaning that the waters above, likewise are water, not clouds.
It doesn't say waters below and clouds above. It says, in the midst of the waters with waters above and below.
Also, Hebrew scholarly consensus would also disagree. The entire old testament describes ancient near east cosmology. Take the following verses for example, it's not just Genesis:
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6
God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7-8
And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11
the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2
And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20
And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12-13
“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4
and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10
Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14
He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10-11
Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18
Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18
can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18
Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13
Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.
Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4
The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20
The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10
Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23
you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3
He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7
To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6
Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4-6
Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1
Isaiah 24:18
[18] Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4
It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22
Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22
And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26
And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1
He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-29
The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1
“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4-6
The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8
Earth resting on pillars. The circle of the earth. Under God's feet is pavement of sapphire stone. Over the heads of the cherubim is a dome shining like crystal. Sheol with the rephaim in the underworld.
Job 37:18
can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
To say that the sky isn't solid in the Bible, is to blatantly ignore half the old testament.
Also, I'm sure the individual you've sourced is a nice guy, but he doesn't actually have any credentials in old testament studies.
At the age of 20, Poythress earned a B.S. in mathematics with honor (valedictorian) from California Institute of Technology,[3] in the year 1966. While there, he became a Putnam Fellow in 1964.[4] He received his Ph.D. in mathematics from Harvard University,[3] finishing in 1970. Westminster Theological Seminary awarded him both an M.Div and a Th.M in apologetics for work done in the years 1971-74. He earned an M.Litt from the University of Cambridge in New Testament studies during 1974-76.[5][6] He received a Th.D. in New Testament from the University of Stellenbosch.[7][8]
How Firm is the “Firmament”? Part 1 of 2
Experimental physics has recently verified the prediction of Albert Einstein’s theory of general relativity that outer space has structure. Yet was this concept already described by Genesis 1 many centuries earlier? A comprehensive analysis of the complex Hebrew word rāqîa‘ seems to suggest that...reasons.org
I tend to suspect that if a flood occured, it was global in the sense that the world was a smaller place at the time. Meaning people didn’t travel like they do now as the means to do so readily didn’t exist. As a result, information didn’t travel like it does now either. Had a Katrina-like catastrophe or a 2004 tsunami-like catastrophe occurred during those times, where everything you know exists in a 100-mile radius and this impacted every inch of those 100 miles, it would be very easy for people of the time to assume it was a global event.Too many species, too many mouths to feed. And if you're YEC you have over 1,000 species of dinosaurs and therapod dinosaurs to contend with. And frankly we are definitely on their menu. The Ark would need warehouse sized food and water storages. And what about waste disposal? The stinkiest ark to have ever sailed the global sea. Have you ever driven past a cattle farm but imagine that on a larger scale in an enclosed space? I think Christianity especially the Fundies, may need to accept that the flood was a massive regional one and likely a passed down oral tradition that may grew alittle larger each time it was taught and that was eventually became canonized by Moses and the ancient scribes. But furthermore, it fits the pattern of Yahweh's judgment of the nations throughout the Old Testament. In fact, both Jesus and Peter drew comparisons between the Flood and the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 itself a regional, national judgment.
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Hugh Henry has no education on the old testament. He's a physicist. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but he hasn't studied the Bible and doesn't have expertise in it. If this were a subject about physics, he would be more of a reasonable resource. I'll respond anyway. But just pointing this out.How Firm is the “Firmament”? Part 2 (of 2)
Part one of this series suggested that – based on analysis of the Hebrew word rāqîa‘—an important part of Albert Einstein’s theory of general relativity was already described by Genesis 1 by many centuries before.reasons.org
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