"a dog returning to its own vomit".

PastorJim · Sep 7, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
PastorJim, I said I was sorry, but I shant be soon.

I re-read our posts, and you seem desperately trying to convince me, you and anyone else reading this thread, that at best I didnt know up from down when it comes to what it meant to be a christian. Well maybe your right Jim, perhaps I didnt do everything correct as a christian, perhaps I was only deluding myself as to my own faith and belief in what I thought was involved in being a christian. If I listed what I believed as a christian, at this point it would most likely come out wrong, then I would just be back defending myself and getting no help at all.

Gary, are you born again?

Garyzenuf · Sep 7, 2008

PastorJim said:
Gary, are you born again?

Well, so much for the olive branch.
OK Jim, it appears you don't want to talk in private , and from all intents and purposes don't care about trying to answer any of MY questions, but rather continue your disection of my claimed love for Jesus, fine, what do I care anymore, you still seem more interested in making an example of me (by the way, I would like to ask anyone whos following this ping-pong match to let me now if I'm coming across as being completely paranoid with a persucution problem, or like it appears to me I'm wasting my time with this guy?), than showing any compassion.

At the risk of feeling like a bowling pin ready to be plowed over, yes , I
was born again, (but I'm having the sinking feeling something was done wrong, misunderstood, or (no offense gary), these answers to your cross-examination lack the ring of honesty).

PastorJim · Sep 7, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
At the risk of feeling like a bowling pin ready to be plowed over, yes , I was born again

You were born again? Does that mean that you're not now born again? How does that work, exactly? How does one become un-born again?

Garyzenuf · Sep 7, 2008

PastorJim said:
You were born again? Does that mean that you're not now born again? How does that work, exactly? How does one become un-born again?

past-tense mistake

PastorJim · Sep 7, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
past-tense mistake

OK. Let's try this again. You say that you were born again. Does that mean that you believe you were born again at one time and are no longer born again, or does it mean that you were born again and are currently born again?

Garyzenuf · Sep 7, 2008

I believe I was and am born again.

PastorJim · Sep 7, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
I believe I was and am born again.

Gary, 1 John says:

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

So let's take a look at that:

1. Do you love God? Do you love fellowship with Him? Do you love fellowship with the body of Christ?

2. Are you keeping God's commandments?

3. Are you growing in holiness? Are you growing in faith in Christ?

4. Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?

5. Do you believe Jesus when He says that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the only avenue of salvation for sinful men?

These are just some of the qualities the Bible says that somebody who is born again will show. So, how about it, Gary? Are you doing these things?

Garyzenuf · Sep 7, 2008

PastorJim said:
Gary, 1 John says:

So let's take a look at that:

1. Do you love God? Do you love fellowship with Him? Do you love fellowship with the body of Christ?

2. Are you keeping God's commandments?

3. Are you growing in holiness? Are you growing in faith in Christ?

4. Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?

5. Do you believe Jesus when He says that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the only avenue of salvation for sinful men?

These are just some of the qualities the Bible says that somebody who is born again will show. So, how about it, Gary? Are you doing these things?

Are you?

Garyzenuf · Sep 7, 2008

So, how about it, Jim?, are you doing these things?

No response?, No surprise.

Your forte seems to be asking questions, not answering them, so to supply you with a little more ammo for my edification;

1.a Most certianly. b. Yes I do as a matter of fact. c. Not always, if you don't know why at this point, I don't know what to say.

2. Hmmm...all of them everyday?, no I don't believe I do. (Do you?).

3.a I pray I am, but I honestly do not know. b. With every breath I take.

4. Yes.

5. Yes.

seashale76 · Sep 7, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
Sorry, thats a little gross, but I believe its in the bible. Aparrently thats how God now views me, since I once believed, and now no longer do. I think I'm the same man, inside and out, as when I was a christian, as caring, as loving, maybe a little less critical of others, and a bit more educated, but basiclly the same.

It seems the only BIG change in me has been my belief in the God of the bible as being real, for that thought, he has gone from loving me, to seeing me as dog eating his own vomit, and someone now worthy only for an eternity of torturing and suffering in hell.

For a thought, don't you think thats a little harsh?

Is this verse the one you're thinking of?

Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

You misunderstand what hell is. I could never buy into the whole Jonathan Edwards Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God thing where God hates everyone and just specifically creates people to torment for eternity. It never rang true. However, reading about what the Orthodox Church believes regarding heaven and hell, it did ring true to me.
So, what is this view of heaven and hell? God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesnt seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

hurtnlonely · Sep 7, 2008

If you will be intellectually honest, then do research on the other side of the isle. What I mean is that there is plenty of proof that the bible is exactly what it claims to be, God's Word. In fact, there is so much proof that one would have to choose to close their eyes in order to deny it. And I'm talking about scientific proof. I can't think of where to refer you right at this moment, but you could start by reading C.S. Lewis's book "Mere Christianity". He was an atheist, an intellectual, who studied the claims of scripture and became a believer. Very good reading. There are many more current examples of intellectuals, scientists, and the like, who did the same thing.

You have to consider that most of the people in the field of science don't want to believe that there is a God. They purposefully ignore or explain away any evidence contrary to their premise. In order to be intellectually honest, you must examine both sides before making this all-important decision.

PastorJim · Sep 8, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
So, how about it, Jim?, are you doing these things?

Yes.

No response?, No surprise.

1.a Most certianly.

Jesus said "If you love Me, then you'll keep My commandments". You say that you love God, but you're not keeping His commandments. How can this be?

And how do you fellowship with God? Do you read His word regularly?

Not always, if you don't know why at this point, I don't know what to say.

And, according to the passage I cited, the love of fellowship with the body of Christ is a fruit of being born again. So the fact that you don't should be a red flag.

Are you actively involved in a local church?

2. Hmmm...all of them everyday?, no I don't believe I do. (Do you?).

Jesus said, "if you love Me, you'll keep My commandments". So how can you say that you love God and not keep His commandments?

3.a I pray I am, but I honestly do not know. b. With every breath I take.

How can you be growing in faith in Christ when your OP said "I no longer believe"?

4. Yes.

How can this be when you said in your OP that you no longer believe?

5. Yes.

Again, how can this be when you say that you no longer believe?

Garyzenuf · Sep 9, 2008

Yes, I did say I no longer believe the God in the bible. I guess I should have said I still believe in Jesus as my personal savior, and I am having a real hard time beliving in parts of the bible I used to take for granted.

I thought I wrote to you, but I guess it was some one else, and asked "How can I still think of myself as a christian , and NOT believe in the inerrancy of the bible?".

OK, thats enough. I feel like I'm being honest and open here, and all I get from you Jim is prodding and poking with endless questions and no answers. You know far more than I do what it means to be a good christian. I always did the best I could because I loved being in Gods care, I went to church sang my soul dry because I couldn't help it (I'm a horrible singer, so people around me I'm sure wish I could have controlled it), prayed morning noon and night still do raised my daughters to believe in christr their still with him living happily in Scotland and Greece loved studing the bible reading it sometimes just open it up and start readind and it was always perfect that and like yourself a million other things.

3 months ago I started looking up secular facts on the Flood for a friend at work (christian) to get the non-believers side, for an on going debate he was having with someone, and after looking into it it started to make sense in a way so I stopped reading it and started reading only the bible Ithought I would read it thru to get the same growing joy I had the first time I did that but instead I questioned more and more I stopped reading it all together because it seemed my heart wasnt cnnected only my head was and I didnt want to loss what faith I had in the bible

the whole time including this second I beseech Jesus to help me thru this terrible time I ask christian freinds at work for their prayers and support but seemed to get little of either as they seemed more interestyed in the passing of the world. the main pastor at the church I attended is on a missionary work in Maui if you can believe it he was the only elder I could connect with and approaching others I new seemed more to I dont know...sort of shocked them or the guys at work acted like I was picking up some kind of diesease and I was infectious(sp)

So i started reading this website and read it for a long time and Iguess just started blurting out what I had going thru my head because I had no one to talk to about these thoughts and feelings and worries and second guessing everything I did, I was desperate My thread I guess was more of a attension getter I gues (although someone at work told me that was how God now viewed me as I had fallen away

Anyway I dont even know what I just wrote and I'm just going to send it off I pray someone out there can help me....

rob64 · Sep 9, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
Sorry, thats a little gross, but I believe its in the bible. Aparrently thats how God now views me, since I once believed, and now no longer do. I think I'm the same man, inside and out, as when I was a christian, as caring, as loving, maybe a little less critical of others, and a bit more educated, but basiclly the same.

It seems the only BIG change in me has been my belief in the God of the bible as being real, for that thought, he has gone from loving me, to seeing me as dog eating his own vomit, and someone now worthy only for an eternity of torturing and suffering in hell.

For a thought, don't you think thats a little harsh?

I have to avoid much of your OP, in order to get to the "root" of the thing.
Regardless of what you have been taught, heres the way it really is with christianity;
To truely repent means to have a change in the way one thinks about sin. And when one confesses that they are a sinner, and in need of a savior, (Jesus Christ) and invites Jesus into their heart, they become "saved". God puts His spirit in them. God will NEVER unsave the person. It is an eternity thing. Neither does one "turn in" their salvation, or "give it back".
So, would you like to ask Jesus into your heart?

Garyzenuf · Sep 9, 2008

i did ihave and i do

PastorJim · Sep 9, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
Yes, I did say I no longer believe the God in the bible.

I guess I should have said I still believe in Jesus as my personal savior

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but Jesus is the God of the Bible.

I always did the best I could because I loved being in Gods care, I went to church sang my soul dry because I couldn't help it (I'm a horrible singer, so people around me I'm sure wish I could have controlled it), prayed morning noon and night still do raised my daughters to believe in christr their still with him living happily in Scotland and Greece loved studing the bible reading it sometimes just open it up and start readind and it was always perfect that and like yourself a million other things.

3 months ago I started looking up secular facts on the Flood for a friend at work (christian) to get the non-believers side, for an on going debate he was having with someone, and after looking into it it started to make sense in a way so I stopped reading it and started reading only the bible Ithought I would read it thru to get the same growing joy I had the first time I did that but instead I questioned more and more I stopped reading it all together because it seemed my heart wasnt cnnected only my head was and I didnt want to loss what faith I had in the bible

the whole time including this second I beseech Jesus to help me thru this terrible time I ask christian freinds at work for their prayers and support but seemed to get little of either as they seemed more interestyed in the passing of the world. the main pastor at the church I attended is on a missionary work in Maui if you can believe it he was the only elder I could connect with and approaching others I new seemed more to I dont know...sort of shocked them or the guys at work acted like I was picking up some kind of diesease and I was infectious(sp)

So i started reading this website and read it for a long time and Iguess just started blurting out what I had going thru my head because I had no one to talk to about these thoughts and feelings and worries and second guessing everything I did, I was desperate My thread I guess was more of a attension getter I gues (although someone at work told me that was how God now viewed me as I had fallen away

I can understand that. I'm not discounting your experience. I'm just trying to make you understand that saying you're a Christian or even believing you're a Christian doesn't make you one.

Like I said, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or offend you, but in order to help you, we first have to determine the nature of your problems and we can't do that without first figuring out where you stand with God.

You have to admit that, if somebody believed something that isn't true and that believe prevented them from moving forward, it wouldn't be very loving of me to pretend that their belief is true, just to spare their feelings, would it?

It would seem to me that the most loving thing I could do would be to first explain to them that their belief is not true, why it is not true, and what to do in order to bring that belief in line with the truth. Doesn't that make sense?

Garyzenuf · Sep 9, 2008

Part of my truth, is Evolution, part of my truth, is that God exists.

Can I keep both, and still be a Christian?

I guess not.

Garyzenuf · Sep 10, 2008

Yes, perhaps your right after all Jim, saying I was a christian didn't make me one, but I think I was well on my way, and yes, I did know Jesus as the God in the bible (I didn't sleep through every bible study ), I guess I just focused more on the one in the NT.

My feelings are not hurt, just a little anger here and there, I found it hard to open up in such a sterile enviroment, sort of felt at times like people reading my posts might be thinking I was a little slow in the head, I'm not a quick study, I didnt start believing in Jesus until I was 35 or so, and understanding the bible was at times very difficult (probably why I stuck to the NT).

I also don't like my friends to remain delusional, I believe it may limit their ability to enjoy life to the fullest, and your right, that would not be the most loving thing I could do.

And yes, to give those we love our opinion of the truth is the best of ourselves we can give, honestly sharing our core beliefs. I dont doubt that for a moment. So thanks for spending the time (talking?) with me.

I'll keep in my seach for God, and I guess I'll stop thinking of myself as a christian.

Zunalter · Sep 10, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
I'll keep in my seach for God, and I guess I'll stop thinking of myself as a christian.

Quick question, where are you at in this conversation? Sorry, it is a little hard to track a train of thought across 41 posts...

Looking at some of your posts, it seems that you are having an issue with "your head and your heart". I do not know all of what that pertains, but if my previous experience with skeptics serves me, it boils down to one or several of the following issues:

1. Evolution
2. Inerrancy of Scripture
3. Miracles
4. Hell

Which single issue, either listed above or whatever, do you have the hardest time with as far as reconciling your faith? I guess if you don't mind, I would like to re-start there.

-Z

rob64 · Sep 10, 2008

Garyzenuf said:
Yes, perhaps your right after all Jim, saying I was a christian didn't make me one, but I think I was well on my way, and yes, I did know Jesus as the God in the bible (I didn't sleep through every bible study ), I guess I just focused more on the one in the NT.

My feelings are not hurt, just a little anger here and there, I found it hard to open up in such a sterile enviroment, sort of felt at times like people reading my posts might be thinking I was a little slow in the head, I'm not a quick study, I didnt start believing in Jesus until I was 35 or so, and understanding the bible was at times very difficult (probably why I stuck to the NT).

I also don't like my friends to remain delusional, I believe it may limit their ability to enjoy life to the fullest, and your right, that would not be the most loving thing I could do.

And yes, to give those we love our opinion of the truth is the best of ourselves we can give, honestly sharing our core beliefs. I dont doubt that for a moment. So thanks for spending the time (talking?) with me.

I'll keep in my seach for God, and I guess I'll stop thinking of myself as a christian.

Again, Sir, would you like to become a cristian?

"a dog returning to its own vomit".

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