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A discussion on the morality of polygamy

Prakk

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This is soundbite stuff. What does "one flesh" mean? To you it has all the right nuances but unfortunately you can find no place in scripture that confines "one flesh" to "only occuring once" and "only occuring between a husband and a wife in a monogamous relationship." The proof is in scriptural admonitions in the New Testament about becoming one flesh with the wrong people. In those discussions it is obviously possible to become one flesh with many. Thus it is proved that the "one flesh" argument does not dictate exclusivity. Your argument seems to be that it ought to. Show me where it says that.

Hugh McBryde
 
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Scholar in training

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Well, the obvious problems with polygamy are (1) who would get to sleep with whom on each night and why, (2) which child or wife or husband would the favorite and why, (3) how the wife or child or husband would react to being treated lesser than the rest of the family, and (4) how much constant multiple sexual relationships would increase the chance of spreading pathogens from partner to partner.
 
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Romany

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What I was trying to say: 'the man will leave his father and mother and become united with his wife' ---wife singular. And the fact that alot of reverence is placed on this equal partnership in other parts of the bible, polygamy might suggest that marriage is not a matter of eternal unity, but a case of 'my wife's not good enough any more. I guess I need another.'

Romany
 
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Prakk

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That would be like saying if the scripture used the word "house" or "horse" it was limiting to one. Besides, we all know how many wives David had and his wives are referred to in the singular. You're stating that because someone becomes the wife or husband of someone one at a time, that it means monogamy. What was that song? Rose Colored Glasses?

The use of the singular is unimpressive with regard to asserting marriage is ONLY between one man and one woman. King David is a well known Polygynist. I count the singular use of the term wife SIX TIMES when it is known he had others. 1st Samuel 25:40, 25:42, 25:44, 2nd Samuel 3:14 & 11:27. His wife this, his wife that, took her as his wife and so on. It's meaningless. It only defines these people as "a husband" or "a wife" without specifying at all that this is an imperative or that the term refers to an exclusive state. This is a complete and total proof that the use of the term "wife" is not limiting. Don't bring weak stuff to the game. I'll tatoo that sucker and send it over the outfield fence.

Hugh McBryde
 
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Prakk

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Over a period of about 10 months an ongoing discussion of Bibilcal Polygamy has been going on in various other forums. During that time some of those forums, such as http://www.christian-underground.com/ closed. The "CU" was where I started to discuss it on my own and I was vastly unpopular there as a result. In my search for other venues where the discussion might be going on, I found my good friend Don Dean, and it turned out he had been fighting a lonely battle of his own on the same topic. Initially since our ideas were so much alike, people thought we were invading their forums as a "tag team" when in fact we were still getting to know each other. Eventually we did become a team and this complete (and I humbly offer, irrefutable) argument was developed. None of this would have happened without Don, this is in large part, a tribute to his fearless loyalty to The Lord our God, and his written word.

Many people will say this is a frivolous argument as few peace seeking Christians would flaunt the laws of the land by taking other wives. I have several things to say in that area. One, in those nations promoting monogamy through law, there is still divorce, and the pattern of polygynous marriage leads to a better understanding of that unfortunate human necessity born of our sinful natures. The other is, you can get on a computer in Afganistan or Iran or any other nation in the world, and you can access this forum and others like it. It shows serious myopia to think that we in the west own this discussion.

Polygyny is:
"The condition or practice of having more than one wife at one time."
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

It is my declaration that the practice of Polygyny is just as valid today as it was when it was practiced in the Old Testament. Here are some hopeful guidelines and recommendations about this thread. This is not a topic about the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) or the Muslims. Neither of these religions is Christian, and I don't care what they do or think. It's not relevant to this discussion. Next, there are a couple of tired arguments against it that I would like to discourage up front. In that I am addressing these arguments up front, the simple repetition of them would be to engage in one of the most ancient fallacies known as "argumentum ad nauseam." Since I have made the argument already, repeating it is now a fallacy since the argument is answered and that answer must now be replied to.

"It's only allowed (with regret) by God, we shouldn't do it" This is a simple "non sequitur" This argument is based on the absolutely inexplicable connection most people have in their minds between this subject and Christ's statements on divorce. Somehow because Christ says divorce is reluctantly permitted, it is also true that Polygyny is reluctantly permitted. This is an extremely pervasive belief but no proof is ever offered for the connection. There is a secondary connection between this topic and divorce but it has nothing to do with whether or not God merely permits Polygyny in a grudging fashion. Please don't bring it up unless you find the verse that states it. This verse has proved completely hidden to me though I read scripture daily and have for years, cover to cover, front to back, over and over again, version after version. It's probably not there.

"One Flesh" Supposedly this is a devastating argument against polygyny. It assumes a definition of the phrase "one flesh" and thus "begs the question" or is a "circular argument." The reasoning is based on the unfounded notion that One Flesh is made of two components only, and that the function closes after that. No evidence in scripture exists to support that notion, but it's advanced anyway. God is three in one, Christ unifies with the church, which is his bride, and is many many people. The notion that the two become one and nothing else can ever happen after that is a subjective notion, not a scriptural one.

"Cleaving" This is a use of the word in a "Colored" way (Emotive Language). Cleave conjures up certain images and preferred definitions but cleave has definitions that are near polar opposites. , one meaning to cut or divide, the other to cling to. You'd need a philologist to know why. There are many gradations of meaning between those two poles. Context dictates the meaning you select and the context doesn't support the notion of a bilateral exclusiveness. If you're going to go there, you're going to have to prove to me that cleave means only what you want it to mean. This argument could also be termed "Idiosyncratic Language."

"It's Adam & Eve, not Adam & Eve & Amber & Crystal" which is a variation of the "Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve" argument against homosexual "marriage." This is a "Faulty" or "Hasty Generalization." Neither argument holds water. This is not to say I condone Adam & Steve, I don't. There are other reasons why Adam and Steve should stay away from one another, but they aren't spoken to in the creation story. Using the Adam and Eve monogamy example assumes the story in all it's details, before the fall, to be an archetype for all marriage that we must follow without deviation. It is not possible to argue monogamy from their example unless you embrace all parts of the example. Unless you got married buck naked, I urge you not to go there. There are other ways this supposed archetype get strained as well. You're probably not named Adam, or Eve, you aren't made from a rib or you're not missing one. The list goes on. Adam and Eve's marriage is an archetype ONLY in ways stated elsewhere in scripture to be an archetype or ideal.

"It's bad to divide love" To which I reply it is thus wrong to even have your first child, much less two or more. There's no arguing this, really, but I know some of you will try. This is essentially a use of a "False Dilemma."

"It leads to Strife" An example of "non causa pro causa." This is the human condition. It's also a deceptive argument when appealing to scripture, very few of the patriarchs in scripture can be demonstrated to have been monogamous. Thus all family strife can be conveniently placed at the feet of their polygyny. Never mind that Isaac and Rebecca were monogamous, wow, what problems they had in their family.

"Solomon’s problems are traced to Polygyny" This is a "red herring." His problems are actually traced to his foreign marriage alliances, in which he took wives that had not renounced their various religions. This was the warning and purpose of the Law against it, and it was what happened to Solomon.

"Deuteronomy 17:17" No, read verse 16. Having read verse 16 it is obvious that you must "Equivocate" to reach the conclusion that a King must be monogamous. Take a deep breath. You're arguing that a King could only possess one horse. The admonition is against many wives, not more than one. The only open ended question in this verse is this: How much is many? Also unless you're a King, it doesn't apply. To make it apply to most people you must engage in "dicto simpliciter." You're ignoring the context of the rule and applying it to a specific situation, namely one that it isn't said to apply to.

"Elders are to be husbands of one wife" Again, "dicto simpliciter." This is a condition of office, not a rant against polygyny. Again, take a deep breath. The argument using this verse employs the notion that it is an ideal to be strived for. Credible, until you realize you've just said women are sub creatures. Besides it's virtual proof that there were polygynous couples in the early church. Otherwise why say anything about it?

"Why can't women have more than one husband?" Because Sarah called Abraham Lord, no one can serve two masters, and man is to woman as God is to man. If you don't recognize where I source these things, you don't belong in this thread. "Faulty generalization," 'red herring & "dicto simpliciter."

"It's Adultery!" This depends on "word magic", "begging the question" and "subjectivism" No, it's not, if you can marry 20 women you can have sex with all of them and it's not adultery, the marriage bed is undefiled. First you must prove that it's wrong to marry more than one woman at a time, then you might have a case. Don't mention this until you can prove polygyny is wrong.

"Lamech was the first Polygynist" The logical fallacy engaged in here is "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" which asserts that because two things occur together, they are related. Lamech is the first Polygynist mentioned in scripture. Nothing is ever said about his Polygyny other than he engaged in it. The argument is that Lamech was a bad dude, and he's the "First Polygynist", therefore Polygyny is bad.

"It's against the Law" This speaks to an issue related fallacy known as "Impossible Condition." Those raising this argument don't want to debate the subject until the law changes, thereby postponing the argument they are answering, instead of dealing with its merits. On top of that, it's actually debatable that Polygyny is against the law. It is also important to deal with it because it may not be against the law soon.

"It's against the Vows of Marriage" Again, a "faulty generalization" because not everyone takes these vows. If you did then you have a promise you need to keep, it doesn't make Polygyny wrong, it makes it wrong for whoever took that vow. Besides, those vows are not from scripture anyway.

Up until this point, I've made the milder of the arguments with regard to the practice of polygyny. It is in fact signifigant when you have ALL the written revelation that God intended us to have, that God has not condemned the practice and he has chosen to do so in the face of numerous examples. We're not examining an infinite universe and claiming we haven't SEEN the proof yet, we're examining a finite universe for which I can look at all the proofs that exist. We know the rules of the game, we have the entire book of rules. There ARE NO OTHER RULES. Then there is this, 1st Corinthians 4:6,(NASB)
"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other."
That we do not exceed what is written? Part of Romans 14 is dedicated to not imposing restrictions, though mostly to with regard to food. Several places in scripture warn against changing the scripture through subtraction, AND addition, so to say that it is not forbidden, refering to scripture, is a COMPELLING argument. Deuteronomy 4:2,(NASB)
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Just to be sure, in case we missed it, Deuteronomy 12:32,(NASB)
"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it."
But the we're not done yet. Let's stop off in the middle of the scriptures, Proverbs 30:5 & 6,(NASB)
"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."
Ouch, that's strong stuff. As a parting shot, in this continuing theme, though it is about the book of Revelation, we can see that God is sensitive about his word getting changed, because he continues with Revelation 22:18 & 19,(NASB) Yikes.

The logic is this. God meant to say everything he was going to say in terms of law. He emphasizes this by forbidding additions and subtractions. Thus if he has not banned something, he forbids you, as Christians, from doing so. In discussing the popular arguments against Polygyny I have always been doing it as a courtesy to the people who think they have valid objections. The first part of this post deals with the various arguments people raise against polygyny and their initial refutations. There is of course the possiblity that these arguments can be advanced and an intial refutation does not mean that they could not be advanced. This has in fact been done on occasion and I have modified my argument to deal with those insights.

The last part of this post deals with the roadblock of God's own word when it comes to adding conditions. We can argue about the first part, and of course it is my position that I have trumped everyone's arguments there. This could be proved false someday by a good analysis of the scriptures, but then we would still have to deal with the total absence of condemnation by God in the face of numerous examples of the practice by God's people.

In summation I can say that the second part of the argument, dealing with no condemnation is an Iron Clad proof. It cannot be said that this would be like God never saying "Don't Smoke Marijuana" since no example of pot usage exists in scripture. Many examples of polygyny in every walk of Hebrew life exist. Priests practiced it, common people practiced it and Kings practiced it. Zero condemnation.

Hugh McBryde
 
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Romany

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Okaaaaaaay *backs off slowly*
Well, it looks like you and I can't agree. I don't have anything to offer you in the way of arguements, and I'm not going to pretend I understand everything that happened in the OT; but I just can't say that the God I worship would condone polygamy, especially from my own experiences with it (referring to a post I put up earlier on).
What I usually think in cases like this is where I'm not sure what to do: 'Would condoning this have even the slightest possibility of hurting God?' And if the answer is yes---like it is now----than I just avoid it, because I don't want to do/condone anything that might be sinful in God's eyes.

Romany
 
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Prakk

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Romany said:
"I just can't say that the God I worship would condone polygamy, especially from my own experiences with it (referring to a post I put up earlier on)."
You've had experience with Christian polygynists? Wow, where do you find that standard in scripture? The standard I have found is offending a weaker brother, but if you can raise that argument, you almost certainly class yourself outside the community of weaker brothers. The other standard is that if you think it's a sin, it would be a sin for you to do it. Namely, if you are convinced in your mind that Polygyny is wrong, and then you engage in it, you've sinned, not necessarily because Polygyny is a sin, but because while you were convinced of it's evil in your mind, you did it anyway.

Hugh McBryde
 
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christalee4

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LibertyChic said:
What culture accepts a woman having more than one husband? Anyone? I've never heard of polygamy being defined in any other way than a man having multiple wives.

It's not as widespread as polygyny, but polyandry was and is practiced primarily in areas in Asia; areas of Sri Lanka (Sinalese culture), among the Sherpas in the Himilayas, and among some Hindu sects. Usually it was practiced in situations in which there was a shortage of women in the tribe, and brothers might share a wife (fraternal polyandry). The recent tsunami disaster in Asia killed many more women and children, and with the woman shortage, there could possibly be a resurgence of polyandry, on top of the bride kidnappings.
 
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seebs

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Scholar in training said:
Well, the obvious problems with polygamy are

These "problems" seem a little weird.

(1) who would get to sleep with whom on each night and why,

How is this a "problem with polygamy"? It is very similar to questions like "do we boff tonight or let one of the kids sleep in our bed", or "what happens when one partner isn't in the mood"...

(2) which child or wife or husband would the favorite and why,

Ahh, just as it is wrong to have multiple children, because it would be harmful if one were "the favorite". I am not sure that "favorite" applies. I can't tell you which of many of my close non-romantic friends is my "favorite". I don't have a favorite. They are unique and non-interchangeable. Why should spouses be any different?

(3) how the wife or child or husband would react to being treated lesser than the rest of the family,

This doesn't make any sense. Why do you assume that someone would be treated "lesser" than the rest of the family, even assuming this were grammatical?

If my single spouse and I have a single kid (to avoid the dire threat that I might have a favorite child, or a favorite spouse), which of them will I like better, and how will the other cope with being "lesser"?

(4) how much constant multiple sexual relationships would increase the chance of spreading pathogens from partner to partner.

Er, it wouldn't. Learn some biology. If you all start clean, diseases don't pop up out of nowhere.
 
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christalee4

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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385509510/102-9895889-3529719?v=glance

There is a book called "Under The Banner Of Heaven", by Jon Krakauer, about the violent history behind Mormonism and fundamentalist Mormonism, culminating in the murder trial of two fundamentalist Mormon brothers who brutally murdered a woman and her infant daughter. They believed they were doing God's work. It's a riveting read and gives you insight into the closed polygyny culture of the fundamentalists. I don't understand why the authorities allow them to practice it, especially when there have reports of patriarchs "marrying" the young daughters of some of their wives. Whether Biblically inspired or not, the issue of placing the man "at the head" of the woman always opens the door to abuse, especially in closed societies.
 
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seebs

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I think the key here is the closed and abusive societies. I knew a girl who grew up in a church like that. Her parents told her that it was good that the pastor was molesting her, because a holy man's interest in her might make her a better person.

This has to do with cult practices, more than the specific marital structures. People marrying their daughters is a problem in and of itself, IMHO. I don't think it's all to do with polygamy; I mean, if a man's wife died, and he married his daughter, would you think that was all good, because, hey, it's "not polygamy"?
 
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Scholar in training

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seebs said:
That presumes that we understood that Biblical model correctly
How would you suggest that it is to be understood?

[That also presumes that] it wasn't just Paul doing his best to articulate something in terms of his own understanding.
His own understanding? Paul wrote that what he was saying was of the Lord. He clarified when it was his own teaching ("this command is not from the Lord, it is from me"). Or was Paul lying?
 
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seebs

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Scholar in training said:
How would you suggest that it is to be understood?

A good question! I have had interesting discussions on this topic.

His own understanding? Paul wrote that what he was saying was of the Lord. He clarified when it was his own teaching ("this command is not from the Lord, it is from me"). Or was Paul lying?

Paul said in some cases whose authority he felt he was speaking with. I do not believe that Paul was necessarily infallible. Scripture is useful for instruction; that doesn't mean that every prooftext in it, taken without consideration, will be true when taken at face value. Paul's writing is particularly full of subtle argumentation, arguments in the alternative, very stretched analogies, and other things.

In short, when someone tells me something, and the only source available is a prooftext from Paul, I want to see better substantiation.

In my own life, I have been led to a position of true equality with my spouse, and I believe this to be very well supported. Indeed, I can offer my own context-free prooftext of Paul to "support" it: "Neither male nor female".

We are only male and female insofar as we are in the flesh. In the spirit, we are just people.
 
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Prakk

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seebs said:
"That presumes that we understood that Biblical model correctly, and further that it wasn't just Paul doing his best to articulate something in terms of his own understanding."
I'd say you haven't read it then, or you just don't believe it.
seebs said:
"I do not believe that Paul was necessarily infallible."
Yup, that would be it. Who cares? They're LDS.

Hugh McBryde
 
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seebs

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Prakk said:
I'd say you haven't read it then, or you just don't believe it.

Well, I don't believe your interpretation of it.

Yup, that would be it.

Uh-huh. I am practically dogmatic in my refusal to mistake the Apostles for God.

Who cares? They're LDS.

People are people, and people seeking God are people seeking God.
 
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seebs said:
Well, I don't believe your interpretation of it.
Why not?

People are people, and people seeking God are people seeking God.
It's possible for people to seek God incorrectly, especially people who don't have fundamental/orthodox doctrine down pact.
 
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