666

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 26, 2005

ForeverEndeavor said:
Huh? The terms short and soon are both relative terms. Do you understand what that means? It means your idea of short and mine might differ but they may both be correct. When you say it is litteral, it IS. It is not up to you to determine an exact amount of time for "short". You can't assume that just because "short" to you is say, less than a hundred years that that's what Rev must mean if you take it litteally. That kind of thinking is naive.

Sorry, but those are not "relative terms". That idea is more in alignemnt with gnosticism than Biblical Christianity. If you use that kind of lousy goosy hermenuetic then you can read anything you want into Scripture, which is precisely what dispensationalists do.

"Shortly", means, "shortly". "Soon", means "soon".

ForeverEndeavor · Nov 26, 2005

I agree. They mean exactly what they say. They are also relative terms. You may want to find out what that means before you deny it.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 26, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist]Sorry, but those are not "relative terms". That idea is more in alignemnt with gnosticism than Biblical Christianity. If you use that kind of lousy goosy hermenuetic then you can read anything you want into Scripture, which is precisely what dispensationalists do.
"Shortly", means, "shortly". "Soon", means "soon".

Hello, Augustine_Was_Calvinist,
Whose interpretation are you using? then: the Holy Spirit's -or man's?

In Psalm 37, there is the absolute declaration that the wicked will soon be cut off from the earth, and their place will be found no more, and the meek will inherit the earth. -how soon is 'soon', in that passage?

The promise will not be fulfilled until the LORD Jesus Christ returns on His throne of glory and destroys all the seed of the wicked off the earth, so that soon has not been fullfilled and still, 'soon', will be.
-so how soon is soon, biblically speaking, in those passages that have to be fullfilled and are promised to be fullfilled 'soon', thousands of years ago?

Jesus reiterated the promise of the passing away of this generation at the end of the age when He returns to set up His glorious kingdom on earth, when He comes as lightning on His throne of glory and thoroughly purges the earth of all things that offend.
-so how soon will the promise be fulfilled

-"Soon"! when delay will be no longer and the moment is "now"!

In Psalm 68:31 the prophetic utterance is given that Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands toward God;
"Princes shall come out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands unto God."
That will yet be, in the millennial kingdom: so how soon is soon, in that passage?

From Psalm 37;
Do not fret because of evildoers
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

18 The Lord knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.
27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.
28 For the Lord loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.

As to your user name; if you look into it, you'll find that Augustine was steeped in Babylonian/Greek mythology and gnostic philosophy and didn't know the Hebrew or understand the oracles of God as they were given to the nation of Israel, BTW ; I have read that he did not have assurance of salvation, in the end, at his death.

ikester · Nov 26, 2005

parousia70 said:
1)Please prove there was no mark then.

2)According to scripture, even in the New Heavens and earth time period there are whoremongers, murderers, sorcerors, adulterers, etc, all practicing their lies right outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

So what's your point?

Show us the scripture that proves your contention, that 70AD was the prophesied punishment/judgement upon the Jews for missing the time of visitation.

1...the burden of proof would be on your side.....you can't prove something that never was..........

2....in the new heavens and earth.....those idolators..liars..etc..are in the lake of fire and brimstone.....

3...try Luke ch..19..v.42-44...Jesus says to them what will happen...because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation......

my point.....70 ad.. happened because they miss the visitation...it was not the great tribulation...and Nero was not Mr.666.......

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 27, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
Hello, Augustine_Was_Calvinist,
Whose interpretation are you using? then: the Holy Spirit's -or man's?

Yes, we know, you have a special hot-line to divine knowledge that no one else has.

yeshuasavedme said:
As to your user name; if you look into it, you'll find that Augustine was steeped in Babylonian/Greek mythology and gnostic philosophy and didn't know the Hebrew or understand the oracles of God as they were given to the nation of Israel, BTW ; I have read that he did not have assurance of salvation, in the end, at his death.

You have read wrong. As a matter of fact, what you have presented about Augustine amounts to slanderous lies.

parousia70 · Nov 27, 2005

ikester said:
1...the burden of proof would be on your side.....you can't prove something that never was..........

What would you consider to be acceptable evidence of the mark?

Besides, when does absense of evidence = evidence of absense?

2....in the new heavens and earth.....those idolators..liars..etc..are in the lake of fire and brimstone.....

So your position is that the entire new earth, just outside the gates of the city, which remain open contuinually with the spirit and Bride calling out to all who are thirsty to come in and drink, that "New earth" is the lake of Fire?

3...try Luke ch..19..v.42-44...Jesus says to them what will happen...because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation......

Yes, lets try Luke 19
Luke 19:42-44 is directly paralell to Luke 21:20-24 wich in turn is directly paralell to Matthew 24:15-21

Paralell accounts can not have different meanings.
Each passage speaks of the same event.
The onus is upon you to show that they do not.

my point.....70 ad.. happened because they miss the visitation...it was not the great tribulation...and Nero was not Mr.666.......

You're 1 of 3

yeshuasavedme · Nov 27, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Yes, we know, you have a special hot-line to divine knowledge that no one else has.

You have read wrong. As a matter of fact, what you have presented about Augustine amounts to slanderous lies.

What makes you claim that I claim a hotline? I have never made such a claim and that is slander against my own person and what I have written.
The Holy Spirit is the teacher of His Word and teaches from the Word with the Word, not by outside influences. Anyone can lay the Word side by side and compare Scripture with Scripture who is a Berean.

On Augustine: Im sorry you are not informed of Augustines departure from the gospel once delivered to the saints and of his Gnostic influence and of his pagan Greek/Babylonian learning that he drew upon for his doctrines; instead of the Hebrew Scriptures and the oracles delivered to Israel to keep as living oracles of the Person and work of the LORD Jesus Christ.

I will not lay out pages of instruction for you, as they are to be had by search easily, by anyone who wants to look and see the history of whom they honor, and if they are worthy of the honor or if one is believing truth or error.

I am well read on Augustine and his doctrines and have read much of his work and his life and I am personally persuaded from my own research that his false doctrines have been a plague to the Church of Jesus Christ, for they are not based upon the oracles given to Israel of the Person and work of the YHWH of hosts (second Person), who is come in flesh to be the New Man, the Redeemer-Kinsman of his brother, Adams, family.

He did not know peace in his death and was not a foundation stone of the Church of Jesus Christ that is being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief cornerstone.

He is not a father of the Church of Jesus Christ, as he came long after the Last Word, Jesus Christ, was given to the Church.

Salvation is of the Jews, not of pagan Greek Babylonian Gnostic foundations, and Augustine never came to the understanding of the New Man and did not have the peace of God that passes understanding in his death.
I believe that I read about his death in a reformed publication that did not want to make him look bad, and Augustine was not at peace in his death. -perhaps I have also mixed a bit of Calvin's death in my memory, cause he was not at peace in his death either -I wlll try to find the old sources and re-read, as my memory is not perfect, but impressions are left that bring these things to mind, from former readings.
I was once steeped in Augustinian readings and have much of his writings in my library and have read more than the average person, I think, that Augustine wrote.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 27, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
What makes you claim that I claim a hotline? I have never made such a claim and that is slander against my own person and what I have written.
The Holy Spirit is the teacher of His Word and teaches from the Word with the Word, not by outside influences. Anyone can lay the Word side by side and compare Scripture with Scripture who is a Berean.[/size][/font]

So, your interpretation of Scripture is superior since you are taught personally by the Holy Spirit, eh?

yeshuasavedme said:
On Augustine: Im sorry you are not informed of Augustines departure from the gospel once delivered to the saints and of his Gnostic influence and of his pagan Greek/Babylonian learning that he drew upon for his doctrines; instead of the Hebrew Scriptures and the oracles delivered to Israel to keep as living oracles of the Person and work of the LORD Jesus Christ.

I will not lay out pages of instruction for you, as they are to be had by search easily, by anyone who wants to look and see the history of whom they honor, and if they are worthy of the honor or if one is believing truth or error.

I am well read on Augustine and his doctrines and have read much of his work and his life and I am personally persuaded from my own research that his false doctrines have been a plague to the Church of Jesus Christ, for they are not based upon the oracles given to Israel of the Person and work of the YHWH of hosts (second Person), who is come in flesh to be the New Man, the Redeemer-Kinsman of his brother, Adams, family.

He did not know peace in his death and was not a foundation stone of the Church of Jesus Christ that is being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief cornerstone.

He is not a father of the Church of Jesus Christ, as he came long after the Last Word, Jesus Christ, was given to the Church.

Salvation is of the Jews, not of pagan Greek Babylonian Gnostic foundations, and Augustine never came to the understanding of the New Man and did not have the peace of God that passes understanding in his death.
I believe that I read about his death in a reformed publication that did not want to make him look bad, and Augustine was not at peace in his death. -perhaps I have also mixed a bit of Calvin's death in my memory, cause he was not at peace in his death either -I wlll try to find the old sources and re-read, as my memory is not perfect, but impressions are left that bring these things to mind, from former readings.
I was once steeped in Augustinian readings and have much of his writings in my library and have read more than the average person, I think, that Augustine wrote.

All you have done is prove you are both ignorant of Augustine and Calvin.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 27, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
The Holy Spirit is the teacher of His Word and teaches from the Word with the Word, not by outside influences. Anyone can lay the Word side by side and compare Scripture with Scripture who is a Berean.[/size][/font]

You have to subjectively determine what the Word means.

Oh, I forgot, you are taught what the Word means personally by the Holy Spirit.

Geeeeee, you could be a Pope.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 27, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
You have to subjectively determine what the Word means.

Oh, I forgot, you are taught what the Word means personally by the Holy Spirit.

Geeeeee, you could be a Pope.

I have not claimed what you accuse, and your claims border on harrassment and flaming; so I ask you to stop it and prove me wrong by taking issue with what I say, not making blanket attacks against my person.

We are all to be good Bereans and we are all to study diligently to show ourselves approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of truth.
Rightly dividing is a term that meant to plow a straight row -I was told- and that is to lay Scripture side by side -so to speak- to examine it and prove what is right by it, itself. And we all have the unction from the Holy Spirit and He is our 'Teacher'. Those who are 'teachers' under Him, do not give us new revelations, but open what has been given by the Spirit in the Scripture of truth; and the agreement is within us, by His Spirit giving understanding, that it is truth, or not, because of the witness of the Holy Spirit within comparing Scripture with Scripture -not from our own wishes or desires or outside doctrines.
The Word of God has nothing that can be added
rove all things, hold fast to that which is good.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 27, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
I have not claimed what you accuse

We'll see.

yeshuasavedme said:
and your claims border on harrassment and flaming

Not hardly, try not being so overly sensitive.

yeshuasavedme said:
We are all to be good Bereans and we are all to study diligently to show ourselves approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of truth.
Rightly dividing is a term that meant to plow a straight row -I was told- and that is to lay Scripture side by side -so to speak- to examine it and prove what is right by it, itself.

In doing that, you have to make a judgment that your interpretation is the correct one, right?

yeshuasavedme said:
And we all have the unction from the Holy Spirit and He is our 'Teacher'.

So, like I said, the Holy Spirit teaches you personally.

yeshuasavedme said:
Those who are 'teachers' under Him, do not give us new revelations, but open what has been given by the Spirit in the Scripture of truth; and the agreement is within us, by His Spirit giving understanding, that it is truth, or not, because of the witness of the Holy Spirit within comparing Scripture with Scripture -not from our own wishes or desires or outside doctrines.
The Word of God has nothing that can be added
rove all things, hold fast to that which is good.

Do you know how many false teachers such as Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers and a litany of others make the same claim to be "given understanding by the Holy Spirit"????

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 27, 2005

dilema.

justified · Nov 27, 2005

Please stop. You two are being ridiculous. This is about a passage of the bible, not you two. Move on and return to topic.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 27, 2005

justified said:
Please stop. You two are being ridiculous. This is about a passage of the bible, not you two. Move on and return to topic.

That is what I would like to do, however, it is not possible to have discussions on the biblical issues with some folks, it seems, as they accuse one of all manner of things without addressing the issues from Scripture.

ikester · Nov 27, 2005

parousia70 said:
What would you consider to be acceptable evidence of the mark?

Besides, when does absense of evidence = evidence of absense?

So your position is that the entire new earth, just outside the gates of the city, which remain open contuinually with the spirit and Bride calling out to all who are thirsty to come in and drink, that "New earth" is the lake of Fire?

Yes, lets try Luke 19
Luke 19:42-44 is directly paralell to Luke 21:20-24 wich in turn is directly paralell to Matthew 24:15-21

Paralell accounts can not have different meanings.
Each passage speaks of the same event.
The onus is upon you to show that they do not.

You're 1 of 3

well parousia......I've yet to learn evidence of beheadings of citizens of the Roman world for failing to take the mark of his name or the number of his name (Nero's)..... persecution yes..yet many emperor's did..

my position is....the great white throne judgement..the second death happens before the new heavens and earth therefore the unbelievers..idolators..etc...are no longer around....they are at the lake..

regarding Luke 19.....so would you agree as Jesus said.....that Jerusalem's desolation was because they knew not the time of visitation.....can't be any clearer no matter how you paralell other chapter and verses....

no way around it.. Jerusalem's destruction came because they missed it....

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 27, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
That is what I would like to do, however, it is not possible to have discussions on the biblical issues with some folks, it seems, as they accuse one of all manner of things without addressing the issues from Scripture.

I am responding to your statements such as this;

"Whose interpretation are you using? then: the Holy Spirit's -or man's?"

On one hand you want to claim your interpretation is the Holy Spirit's, then on the other hand want to claim it's by your comparing Scripture with Scripture, which leaves you in the position of making a subjective judgment as to the meaning.

You can't have it both ways.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 27, 2005

Sorry, but those are not "relative terms". That idea is more in alignemnt with gnosticism than Biblical Christianity. If you use that kind of lousy goosy hermenuetic then you can read anything you want into Scripture, which is precisely what dispensationalists do.

"Shortly", means, "shortly". "Soon", means "soon".

Whose interpretation are you using? then: the Holy Spirit's -or man's?
The Holy Spirit has interpreted soon for us, and we do not need to try to figure out when soon is. It is coming, still.

In the following passages, 'soon' is interpreted for us from Scripture by the Holy Spirit as 'not yet', still coming.

"In Psalm 37, there is the absolute declaration that the wicked will soon be cut off from the earth, and their place will be found no more, and the meek will inherit the earth. -how soon is 'soon', in that passage?

The promise will not be fulfilled until the LORD Jesus Christ returns on His throne of glory and destroys all the seed of the wicked off the earth, so that soon has not been fullfilled and still, 'soon', will be.
-so how soon is soon, biblically speaking, in those passages that have to be fullfilled and are promised to be fullfilled 'soon', thousands of years ago?

Jesus reiterated the promise of the passing away of this generation at the end of the age when He returns to set up His glorious kingdom on earth, when He comes as lightning on His throne of glory and thoroughly purges the earth of all things that offend.
-so how soon will the promise be fulfilled

-"Soon"! when delay will be no longer and the moment is "now"!

In Psalm 68:31 the prophetic utterance is given that Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands toward God;
"Princes shall come out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands unto God."
That will yet be, in the millennial kingdom: so how soon is soon, in that passage?

From Psalm 37;
Do not fret because of evildoers
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

18 The Lord knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.
27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.
28 For the Lord loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.

Augustine was steeped in pagan philosophy

AnthonyE1778 · Nov 27, 2005

ForeverEndeavor said:
This calls for wisdom: Let the person who has understanding figure out the number of the beast, because it is the number of a person. Its number is 666.
(Rev 13:18)

OK, I'm sure this topic has been done to death but I'm new so here goes:
What do you think this number is? Is it litteral? Is this some kind of code? It seems to be telling us a riddle. One that someone with wisdom should be able to figure out.

And...GO:

I personally believe that the number 666 is a literal number and there will be some sort of physical or psychological mark or something that only Tribulation Saints (those who have become saved during the tribulation) will be able to recognize and that it will have something to do with the literal number 666. By that number they will know who the true anti-christ is.

interpreter · Nov 28, 2005

yeshuasavedme,

When John said the Revelation would start unfolding "shortly" and "soon," there is no way he was talking about our day or some 2000 years later. Look at the opening of the first two seals (Rev. 6:1-4). Conquerors no longer conquer with a bow, or make war with a great sword. IMO, it was Constantine who was the first Christian conqueor, who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
312AD is soon, not 2005.

Barry

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Nov 28, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
Augustine was steeped in pagan philosophy

Really?

Prove it!

Guess what?

Before God birthed you from above, YOU were steeped in pagan philosophy and was a son of wrath like everyone else.

That is, unless you think you were not born a sinner.

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