2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

BABerean2 · Oct 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
It's in the theme of Amillennialism: Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 43:18, Isaiah 43:19, Revelation 21:5, Isaiah 65:17, Ephesians 2:15, Ephesians 4:24, Hebrews 8:13 - English Standard Version

God has come many times throughout history. I have no reason from Scripture to limit Him.

The Amills I know believe in a future, audible, and visible, Second Coming of Christ.

You sound more like a Full-Preterist to me.

.

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

parousia70 said:
Did the Father Come and personally destroy those wicked men, as vs 40 Prophesied to them He would?

And, Is the Son the Stone, and Is He found Found in Verse 44?
What does the Son/Stone accomplish exactly in Vs 44?

Are the Father and Son "One" As Jesus Himself claimed?
(John 10:30)

BABerean2 said:
The Father is omnipresent, who therefore stands outside of time and space.
However, He came to the top of Mount Sinai in fire and smoke.
He also allowed the Romans to destroy the city and the sanctuary during 70 AD, in the same way He allowed the Babylonians to do it earlier.
There is no doubt He was also present at both events.

God is a spirit.

To which I'd responded that you seem to only be agreeing that Matthew 21 was fulfilled in the sense that God is everywhere.

BABerean2 said:
What other sense is necessary?

.

In the sense that God fulfilled Matt 21:40-44 in 70 A D. Although I wasn't referring to what's "necessary".

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

BABerean2 said:
The Amills I know believe in a future, audible, and visible, Second Coming of Christ.

You sound more like a Full-Preterist to me.

.

Even though I keep posting that I do believe in a future coming of Christ? And that I believe in a future resurrection? That demonstrates how bias causes one to judge others inaccurately.

I'm not going to put a number on His future return (because that dismisses His presence after His resurrection and at the stoning of Steven and His time with Saul/Paul and His coming in 70A.D). I don't limit His comings (nor will I describe it - as I believe that goes beyond the scope of Scripture).

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

Something to keep in mind - I believe - is that faith is a journey, not a guilt trip.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
In the sense that God fulfilled Matt 21:40-44 in 70 A D. Although I wasn't referring to what's "necessary".

mkgal1 said:
Even though I keep posting that I do believe in a future coming of Christ? And that I believe in a future resurrection? That demonstrates how bias causes one to judge others inaccurately.

I'm not going to put a number on His future return (because that dismisses His presence after His resurrection and at the stoning of Steven and His time with Saul/Paul and His coming in 70A.D). I don't limit His comings (nor will I describe it - as I believe that goes beyond the scope of Scripture).

Hello mkgal...Excellent

What did Luke mean to the pre 70AD Jews by the "Kingdom of God" and "your Redemption" is nigh at hand.
I have a thread on Luke 21:31 if you and or others are interested

Luke 21:31 ....ye are knowing that nigh is the KINGDOM OF GOD"

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and consummation<4930> of the Age?

Luke 21:31
31 Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming ye are knowing that nigh/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God.

28 Beginning yet these-things to be becoming/<1096>, up-bend ye! and lift-up! the heads of ye, thru-that is being nigh/eggizei <1448> the redemption<629>of ye.

James 5:8
be patient! also stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia<3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>
==============================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
For the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.
===================================

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

Kindgdom Bible Studies Kingdom of God Part 1
The Kingdom of God
Book One of 4

THE RULE OF GOD
It is significant to note that the phrases “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven” are not to be found in the Old Testament. They are strictly New Testament terms beginning with John the Baptist and Jesus. When Jesus came He did not preach a message called grace, or salvation, or justification, or sanctification, or regeneration, or even the Church. Could there be any more glorious message than the one that fell from His lips as He began His sonship ministry declaring, “The KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!”
There are many strange ideas around about the difference between the terms “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven”. It has been taught that the Kingdom of God is spiritual and heavenly, whereas the Kingdom of Heaven is temporal and earthly, and that the two cannot be mixed.
==================
Kindgdom Bible Studies Kingdom of God Part 1
KINGDOM BIBLE STUDIES
"Teaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God..."

The Kingdom of God
Book One of 4

THE RULE OF GOD

It is significant to note that the phrases “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven” are not to be found in the Old Testament. They are strictly New Testament terms beginning with John the Baptist and Jesus. When Jesus came He did not preach a message called grace, or salvation, or justification, or sanctification, or regeneration, or even the Church. Could there be any more glorious message than the one that fell from His lips as He began His sonship ministry declaring, “The KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!”
From that time forward the great teaching of the Lord centered in the truth of THE KINGDOM. His gospel was the gospel (good news) of the Kingdom of God.

KINGDOM OF GOD — KINGDOM OF HEAVEN

There are many strange ideas around about the difference between the terms “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven”.
It has been taught that the Kingdom of God is spiritual and heavenly, whereas the Kingdom of Heaven is temporal and earthly, and that the two cannot be mixed. Actually, if there were any truth in that, it still sounds backwards!
Some say that the Kingdom of God is an eternal kingdom of God over all and that the Kingdom of Heaven is an earthly and temporal program, some future divine dynasty to be established on earth, and that it is of special significance only to the Jews, who, still awaiting their Messiah, will see His righteous government in control of the world, and in their hands, during the Millennium.
Others assume that the Kingdom of Heaven means a kingdom in heaven, so they are waiting to die so they can go to their kingdom in heaven where they intend to spend eternity strumming harps and dancing up and down the streets of gold.
=================================
Table of Contents:

Chapter Title Page

1. The Kingdom of God 3
2. The Realm of the Kingdom of Heaven 16
3. The Realm of the Kingdom of Heaven (cont.) 30
4. Birthed into the Kingdom 44
5. Birthed into the Kingdom (cont.) 55
6. Birthed into the Kingdom (cont.) 69
7. The Beginning of the Kingdom 83
8. The Beginning of the Kingdom (cont.) 98
9. The Beginning of the Kingdom (cont.) 112
10. The Nature of the Kingdom 125

11. My Kingdom is not of this World 139
“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence” (Jn. 18:36).

The Kingdom of God is not of this world. The Kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy, in the Holy Ghost” (Rom. 14:17).

12. The Kingdom Within 153
13 The Kingdom Within (cont.) 168

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
What did Luke mean to the pre 70AD Jews by the "Kingdom of God" and "your Redemption" is nigh at hand.
I have a thread on Luke 21:31 if you and or others are interested

Luke 21:31 ....ye are knowing that nigh is the KINGDOM OF GOD"

Thanks for the thread link, LLoJ.

I believe that the Kingdom of God came in both salvation and judgement (in 70 A.D.).

The generation that lived alongside Jesus, I believe, were held to the standards of the penalties of Old Covenant. Queen of Sheba was someone that was praised by Jesus (recorded in Matthew 12:42) I believe, because even though she came from a culture that was saturated in idolatry, she came to see - through King Solomon - that the God of the Israelites was truly the One True God and worthy to be praised (2 Chron 9; 1 Kings 10). Those that lived alongside Jesus had God's glory, His exact representation (Hebrews 1:3) to see and hear and to compare to all the words of the Scriptures and all the prophets ("someone greater than Solomon").

BABerean2 · Oct 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
To which I'd responded that you seem to only be agreeing that Matthew 21 was fulfilled in the sense that God is everywhere.

The Father most certainly used the Romans to destroy those wicked men in Matthew chapter 21, during 70 AD.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

.

parousia70 · Oct 1, 2019

BABerean2 said:
The Father is omnipresent, who therefore stands outside of time and space.
However, He came to the top of Mount Sinai in fire and smoke.
He also allowed the Romans to destroy the city and the sanctuary during 70 AD, in the same way He allowed the Babylonians to do it earlier.
There is no doubt He was also present at both events.

Mere Omnipresence doesn't account for these depictions of The Various Judgement comings of the Father:

Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Your Bible says the same thing.

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

None of this precludes the Future to us, Creedal Consummation.

parousia70 · Oct 1, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Did the resurrected Savior have a body which was able to eat?
Will you one day have a body like His?
.

Did the resurrected Savior have a body that retained the wounds it received in death?
Will you one day have a resurrected body that retains any wounds you may receive in death, "Like His" did?

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 1, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
To which I'd responded that you seem to only be agreeing that Matthew 21 was fulfilled in the sense that God is everywhere.

BABerean2 said:
The Father most certainly used the Romans to destroy those wicked men in Matthew chapter 21, during 70 AD.
.

Including Revelation..

THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Replacement Theology, supersessionism: Christians are God's Jews. The church is true Israel.
A. The Parable of the Landowner: Israel replace by Church/Christians

1. "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. "When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?" They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons." Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'? "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. " (Matthew 21:33-46)

2. In a parable so crystal clear only a premillennialist could get it wrong, the Jews, as a nation, were going to be replaced by something new, the church.

3. "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end" happened in 70 AD.

4. Now clearly the entire leadership of the apostolic church and most of the Elders in the churches were Jewish. But they had become Christians who stopped keeping the Sabbath and abandoned the Mosaic system of Judaism. They began immediately worshipping god on the first day of the week, the Lord's day.

5. Jesus went to the Jews first but they rejected Him as the Messiah. The church, (the kingdom) is now open to both Jew and Gentile equally. Both must believe, repent, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the remission of their sins. There is only one way to get saved! Jews have no special route to heaven that gentiles do not have. They all must believe and do the same things to be saved.

6. Paul always began his evangelism in a new city by preaching in the Jewish synagogues. When the Jews rejected the gospel, he turned to the gentiles: "But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. " (Acts 13:45-46)

7. "This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, [Israel] "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. " (1 Peter 2:7-10)

a. Notice that the "you are a chosen, holy nation of priests", which was originally applied to fleshly Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai is now applied to Christians to the exclusion of physical Israel unless they believe.

i. "and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel." " (Exodus 19:6)

ii. ""For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. " (Deuteronomy 7:6)

b. Notice that the text applies these special blessings of being "you are a chosen, holy nation of priests" to the gentiles and that fleshly Israel was "appointed to doom".
===============================
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
2372. thumos thoo-mos' from 2380; passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare 5590.

Used in 1 verse of the Gospels......Luke [My favorite Revelation Gospel]

Luk 4:28

So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with fury<2327>,

Revelation 14:19 - So the Messenger thrust His sickle into the land and gathered the vine of the land
and threw it into the great winepress of the fury<2372> of the God.

Revelation 15:1
And I sign another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous.
Seven Messengers having seven last stripes/blows, that in them is finished the fury<2372> of the GOD..............

Reve 16:17 the seventh Messenger pours out His bowl/vial into the AIR....

Revelation 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out His bowl/vial into the air
and came out great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven from the Throne saying "it has become!"<1096> [Revelation 21:6][/QUOTE]

parousia70 · Oct 1, 2019

BABerean2 said:
How about an audible return in that passage, and a visible return in the same event found in the Book of Revelation.

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings.

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

BABerean2 said:
The future Second Coming of Christ described below occurs when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"When these things begin to happen......look up and lift YOUR heads....for YOUR redemption draws nigh." - those were instructions given to a specific group of people. These were signs they were told to look out for.

The Bible wasn't written TO us.....but it WAS written FOR us.

parousia70 · Oct 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The Bible wasn't written TO us.....but it WAS written FOR us.

Not true!
For I'm expecting Timothy's swift arrival TO ME any minute now....

Philippians 2:19
19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
"When these things begin to happen......look up and lift YOUR heads....for YOUR redemption draws nigh." - those were instructions given to a specific group of people. These were signs they were told to look out for.

The Bible wasn't written TO us.....but it WAS written FOR us.

The bible was written TO us and FOR us.

The first generation did NOT see Christ returning. He said one generation would see all things including the second coming and angels gathering the elect. None of that happened in the first century in fact none of the OD happened either.

The OD prophecies were spoken TO the disciples, but it was not about them nor would they live to see any of it.

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

BABerean2 said:
......when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Has the message of the Gospel NOT gone out to the Gentiles?

Who were the 7 churches in Asia Minor? Were they not Gentiles? Wasn't the original language of our New Testament written in Greek?

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

ewq1938 said:
The bible was written TO us and FOR us.

The first generation did NOT see Christ returning. He said one generation would see all things including the second coming and angels gathering the elect. None of that happened in the first century in fact none of the OD happened either.

The OD prophecies were spoken TO the disciples, but it was not about them nor would they live to see any of it.

That's fine with me if you wish to continue waiting for YOUR redemption (Luke 21:28).

The text doesn't state "they will see Christ returning". The words are pointing to earlier prophecies of Daniel, following the law of first mention (the Son of Man). "His elect" - the faithful remnant - WAS gathered together at Pentecost and beyond (as the numbers increased up until they followed Jesus' instructions to "flee to the mountains" when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies"). If you believe this is written to YOU - then I hope you can first find Judea....and then have your eyes closely on Jerusalem and be ready to flee to the mountains when you see the city surrounded. History would have to repeat itself (as far as I know) since this has already happened....but you're welcome to follow these instructions and see how it works out for you.

Luke 21:20 ~ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.

Matthew 24:16 ~ “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills."

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

parousia70 said:
Not true!
For I'm expecting Timothy's swift arrival TO ME any minute now....

Philippians 2:19
19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Excellent. I hope you're waiting curbside and have a drink ready for Timothy. He is going to be TIRED and in need of refreshment after such a LONG journey.

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The text doesn't state "they will see Christ returning".

It does say that. "they shall see the Son of man coming". Your personal interpretation changes the visible return into something the text does not describe. That's a perfect example of Eisegesis.

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

ewq1938 said:
It does say that. "they shall see the Son of man coming". Your personal interpretation changes the visible return into something the text does not describe. That's a perfect example of Eisegesis.

It would have triggered their thought to this passage (below). We don't "see" the events that happen (literally) in the heavenly/spiritual realm - but we can understand....know (which are English words that convey the Greek word used to express the word translated as "see") the fulfillment of prophecy - through "spiritual eyes":

Daniel 7:13
In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.

BTW - this isn't my "personal" interpretation. It's what's been revealed to the Orthodox church and what's been taught since the beginning of the NT era.

mkgal1 · Oct 1, 2019

ewq1938 said:
It does say that. "they shall see the Son of man coming". Your personal interpretation changes the visible return into something the text does not describe. That's a perfect example of Eisegesis.

Did you take the time to look at the passages that Parousia70 posted that are examples of apocalyptic language?

2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

Are the 2 parousias of Partial Preterism biblical?

Yes

No

I don't know right now

Other

I have never heard of it

The Parousia was fulfilled in the 1st century

There is only 1 Parousia

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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