15 and not baptised

adamdavid said:

Its like having a long engagement to God... sometime soon we'll go make it official, but until then, we'll just enjoy eachother's love...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

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THANK-YOU thats how I feel!!

adamdavid said:

I'm 16 and haven't been baptized. And yet, I can say without any doubt that I AM SAVED!!! Saying that the baptism is what saves you is legalism - a dependence on works to gain salvation... The bible clearly states that thats not how we get our salvation - it is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and that alone...
My reason for not having been baptized is a little different than most... God told me specifically when/where I am to be baptized, and I haven't made it to that time and place yet... and thats okay... Its like having a long engagement to God... sometime soon we'll go make it official, but until then, we'll just enjoy eachother's love...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

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Baptist don't believe that Baptism saves a person it though is a first step in following Christ that He commands us to do.

Also there's no scripture to show that a person must wait to a "certain" time after becoming a christian or "place" to be baptized.



**Remember that nonBaptist/AnaBaptist are not allowed to debate/discuss in the Baptist/AnaBaptist forum. Only for the purpose for asking A question or for fellowship purposes.

RED that's ME said:

Baptist don't believe that Baptism saves a person it though is a first step in following Christ that He commands us to do.

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While I realize that its not the accepted viewpoint among the majority of baptists (/anabaptists), I have been to baptist churches where that viewpoint is strongly suggested, if not openly taught... So some baptists do...

RED that's ME said:

Also there's no scripture to show that a person must wait to a "certain" time after becoming a christian or "place" to be baptized.

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I didn't try to imply that my waiting is necessarily scriptural, but IMO, a baptism is very much like a wedding - I am completely dedicating myself to the love of my life through a public ceremony for all to see... We already have the love, but I haven't gotten to the time and place that God and I decided on for the ceremony to actually occur... it will soon, though... some people don't want to wait, but to me, the anticipation is a joyful thing, and it keeps me in close fellowship with God... It may not be for everyone, but it works for me...

RED that's ME said:

**Remember that nonBaptist/AnaBaptist are not allowed to debate/discuss in the Baptist/AnaBaptist forum. Only for the purpose for asking A question or for fellowship purposes.

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I was saved in a baptist church. I attended there for several years. Much of my view of God and my theology was shaped by that church. I may not claim the denomination, but I'm just about as baptist as alot of others on this board are...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

I always though the baptist believe that water baptism saves. I thought thats why the word "baptist" is chosen for this denomation. Hey you learn something new everyday.

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sorry for thd double post!

If you want to pick one confusing doctrine today it is water baptism and yet it should be one of the simplest of doctrines. And yet more time has been spend on this subject than there ever should have been (just look at all the posts!!!). There are 2 schools of thought:

1. It is essential to salvation – don’t want to argue this – it is not…period! Seen all the verses, have had then quoted to me out of context for so long I just want to scream!

2. It is not essential to ones salvation but we are to do it because:

a. It is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection – sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase. You say, “It is an outward sign of an inward reality.” Really? Where did you get that? Chapter and verse? Sounds good but you can’t make a doctrine out of a catchy phrase.

b. It is the first step of obedience - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.

c. It proves or demonstrates one’s salvation - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.

d. Many saints in the Bible baptized so we should – sounds good but many saints did things in the Bible that we don’t do anymore. We don’t sacrifice lambs, we don’t raise people from the dead, we don’t take vows, we don’t abstain from pork, etc. Yes, things change and I’m glad they do!!!

e. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:19,20 – yes he did but also told you to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded and one of the things he commanded was to adhere to what the Pharisees taught and they taught the law - Matt. 23:3 – “All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe.” They taught the law and I know you believe you are not to adhere to the Old Testament law (well some of you do). (Similar to “d.)


First summary – all that we have been taught and practice concerning baptism has been based upon tradition and making doctrines out of poor applications. Because of these errors we have people going to hell on Acts 2:38, etc. and others trying to obey the “first step of obedience” and if they don’t they are made to fill like second class citizens by Baptist Churches.

What I am going to present I already know most of you will not believe for a couple of reasons:

1. You want to insist on going to hell with your water baptism and nothing is going to change that!

2. You just cannot give up your tradition that has been passed down for centuries. You have made a doctrine out of a tradition.

Now this is what I believe baptism was for in the Bible. I will only discuss the word baptism as it relates to water for just because you see the word baptize it doesn’t mean it is associated with water all the time. Now the Church of Christ can’t see that for all they see is water, water and more water every time the word shows up in any form. For example - look at I Cor. 10:2 and Col. 2:12 and try to find water baptism there.

The first time water baptism shows up is with John the Baptist. Now why did John baptize? Let’s let him tell us.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Look at “therefore” – why is the “therefore” there? The issue was manifesting Christ to Israel. Christ was being manifesting to Israel for the first time. John the Baptist said (paraphrasing), “Here is your Messiah! Do you believe this” Ok, then get baptized.“ Why get baptized? To show that you believe Christ was Israel’s long awaited for Messiah. And along with that they were to show their repentance in regards to their rejection of God the Father in the Old Testament. Manifestation and repentance - It is that simple. And yet this simple doctrine meant for God’s dealing with Israel has turned into a monster.

Do you know why they continued to baptize during Acts? Because the Jews rejected Christ in the gospels and were getting a second chance in Acts. The Gentiles were in on it because they were getting in on Israel’s blessings at that time. Once Israel finally rejected the message in Acts 28 then there was no need to call everyone’s attention to Jesus being the Messiah for that plan was done away with and Paul was called out by God to reveal the body of Christ.

The issue of showing Christ being the Messiah is a non issue today for we have advanced revelation on the matter due to the New Testament being finally written down – plus God is not dealing with Israel right now (I know, a broken record) – So………..baptism is a non issue today. There is only one baptism and that is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 and that has nothing to do with water!

Again, if you start with Paul you will get it – you can’t start with John the Baptist and carry a practice meant for Israel all the way through the church age! You see how simple the scriptures are? You know, Christianity is full of a lot of “junk” today that has nothing to do with Bible Christianity. We are not Rome – we don’t need all of those outward ceremonies.

Conclusion – If you want to baptize then fine – I don’t panic over people making baptism a picture of salvation, etc. You make it essential to salvation and we will go to war over that. But to use it as a picture then I’m not going to make an issue out of it – that is between your church and God – I believe in local self-governing churches.

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with Ephesians 4? Look at what a stumbling block this doctrine has caused. Look at how much money has been spent on baptismal fountains!!! Could you imagine a Baptist church not being able to count their “baptisms” to be able to send them to the Sword of the Lord! Just kidding. I am a Baptist so I can pick on my own thank you.


God bless

AVBunyan said:

If you want to pick one confusing doctrine today it is water baptism and yet it should be one of the simplest of doctrines. And yet more time has been spend on this subject than there ever should have been (just look at all the posts!!!). There are 2 schools of thought:

God bless

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Great post AVBunyan...

AVBunyan said:

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with Ephesians 4? Look at what a stumbling block this doctrine has caused. Look at how much money has been spent on baptismal fountains!!! Could you imagine a Baptist church not being able to count their “baptisms” to be able to send them to the Sword of the Lord! Just kidding. I am a Baptist so I can pick on my own thank you.


God bless

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Very good post.

I want to show something to you.

Lets take a look at john 3:3-5

• John 3
  3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
  5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Many people think Jesus was talking about river water. The word "water" in john3:5, is the same greek word used for water in revelation17:15.

• revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Jesus was not talking about river water he was talking about peoples, multitnudes, and nations. In other words, Jesus said unless your spirit is born of Gods spirit you cannot enter into heaven.

You see, Mankind has taken something so simple and made it complicated.

Thanks Paul and Shawn - I appreciate the kind words.

Shawn - Being that you brought up John 3 I would like to re-post a post regarding this if you don't mind and I trust this will help us all in our understanding of water, born again, baptism, and more importantly what God has for us in Christ today - a bit wordy so forgive me but I did not know how to make it shorter inlight of the importance of the subject matter.

John 3:3-7 – An Explanation

I seen a lot of confusion lately over the below text:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I would like to, if I can, clear up some misunderstandings on this verse.

There are two main doctrines that are here in this verse are as follows:

1. “Born again” vs. 3– linked to the popular phrase “born again”

2. “Water and of the Spirit” – most commonly linked to water baptism

I would like to tackle the second one first vs. 5 – water. This is the easiest. Note the context of verse 5 refers back to vs. 4. The Lord in verse 3 told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. Immediately Nicodemus thought he had to come out of the mother’s womb again. Jesus answers and two things take place: “Except a man be born of water (physical birth for you are in a sack of water inside the womb) and the Spirit you cannot enter in. Jesus said, “You must have a physical birth (womb of water) and a spiritual birth. There is no mention of water baptism here. The reference “of water” is associated with the physical birth that all men must have first. Look at verse 6 where Jesus talks of a fleshly birth (from the womb). There are two births being discussed: physical (“flesh is flesh”) and the spiritual birth.

The part regarding “born again” is a little tougher to follow. I will tell you what I believe and you study it through and see if these things be so (Acts. 17:11).

Jesus was dealing with one of the leaders of Israel and not Jesus used the word “ye” must be born again in vs.7 referencing the Jewish nation as a whole for Nicodemus was representing the leadership of the Jews at that time. Jesus didn’t say “you” must be born again but “ye” (plural). Now, let me paraphrase and then I will move on. “Marvel not…..unto thee (Nicodemus), Ye (Israel) must be born again.

Now lets look at this “born again”. As we all know Israel blew it with God in the OT. God now calls them “Loammi” for they are not God’s people. Though Israel walked away from God we know that God will bring back his people. God gave them the chance in the gospels and they killed Jesus. Jesus on the cross asks the Father to forgive them (Israel) for they knew not what they did so the Father gives them another chance in the book of Acts. As we know they stoned Stephen so…..Israel rejected God the Father in the OT., God the Son in the gospels and then, finally God the Holy Ghost in Acts. Despite all that rejection God still made and covenant with Israel and will honor it and make unbelieving Israel believing Israel. How and when will God do this?

First, how? By doing a supernatural work in their hearts. When? at the end of tribulation and right before they enter into the kingdom. God will revive the valley of dry bones in Ezek. 37:4-14 by His Spirit. Now compare this passage with Isa. 66:8 (note “born at once”) and Eze. 36:26,27. Now go to Heb. 8:8 and you will get a complete picture. Right before the 1,000 yr. Reign the Lord will raise up unbelieving Israel, put a new heart and Spirit in them and then take them into the land that was promised to them. Then they will become the nation of priests on earth resenting God to the nations of the earth.

So, yes, Nicodemus, you have to born physically first and then “Ye” (Israel) will experience a spiritual birth. Now, note, their being “born again” will be their same form of bodies just a rebuilding of a human body that will house God’s Spirit. That is why the term “born again” fits this. This operation of God will be just a new birth from their old bodies redone.

How does this relate to us for you hear the term “born again” all the time? Now, let’s have some fun and get a blessing. When God saved your sorry soul (mine too) He didn’t just take your old body and put a new Spirit in it. It looks as though that is all He did but there is more. We need to see ourselves as God truly sees us. What happened to you is that you were made a new “creature” – II Cor. 5:17. Why did Paul use the term “new creature”? Because when you were saved you were spiritually baptized into the body of Christ – this was a new operation not done before this age of grace. You became bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh and raised you up and seated you in heavenly palaces at the right hand of God (Eph. 1,2). Therefore you are a new “creature” in Christ and nobody before this age has this privilege. Israel gets some land and you get to be a part of Christ’s body in the heavenly palaces for all eternity? Yeeehaaaw – Gloreeeeee to God!

Can’t you see you are not just “born again” (sounds good and all and I don’t panic when people use it.) You have been made a new creature in Christ Jesus. Won’t you admit that somebody being literally put in the literal body of Christ is a “new creature.” Yes, my dear saints, you have something better than just getting into the land. You have Christ in you, the hope of glory. You (the body of Christ) are part of a plan by God that was from “BEFORE” the foundation of the world. In other words you were planned in eternity. Israel and the Gentiles was just “from” the foundation of the world – Matt. 25:24. Your standing in Christ was from “before” the foundation of the world. The body of Christ is not limited to mansions - John 14 – our abode is above the third heavens in eternity with Christ (Eph. 2:4). Look at you, it is Christ “in” you. The disciples just had the Spirit dwelling amongst them (John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.).

You may be down here in your old, tired, sinful flesh but the real you (saved and redeemed, glorified, etc.) is in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Your standing is this – Perfect in the Son seated at the right hand of God, perfect with Christ’s righteousness. This is how God sees the real you. Now your state down here may be in a mess but up there where the real you is it is perfect. This is what God did to you through Christ at Calvary.

Now, what is your duty because of so great privileges? Turn to Eph. 4:1. God just got finished telling you what great things He hath done for you in the first three chapters of Ephesus and in 4:1 He tells you what to do about it. Paul says, “Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,”. You are perfect in heaven blessed with all spiritual blessings then walk down here like you believe it. In other words “walk, your position.” In the following 3 chapters Paul tells you how you should act based upon your position in Christ.

So, I trust that someone will get a blessing. This is not original thinking from me. I learned this after being under the same preacher for over 20 years who seeks to know all he can about God, Christ and the Christian life. If you do not agree with this then, that’s ok for this a forum.


May God bless!

AVBunyan said:

So, I trust that someone will get a blessing. This is not original thinking from me. I learned this after being under the same preacher for over 20 years who seeks to know all he can about God, Christ and the Christian life. If you do not agree with this then, that’s ok for this a forum.

May God bless!

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Two fantastic posts!!

AV1611 said:

Two fantastic posts!!

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Thanks AV - I trust that will clear up some "much discussed and confused" issues. Just trying to show folks what we have in Christ!

God bless an see ya around!

I believe that baptism is for the church age because in Acts 10 baptism was practiced. I understand that the "Great Commission" is not for the church age however even post Acst 13 baptism is practised.

AV1611 said:

I believe that baptism is for the church age because in Acts 10 baptism was practiced. I understand that the "Great Commission" is not for the church age however even post Acst 13 baptism is practised.

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OK, fine - then the one baptism of Eph. 4:5 - what is it - spritual or water?

Thanks

God bless

AVBunyan said:

OK, fine - then the one baptism of Eph. 4:5 - what is it - spritual or water?

Thanks

God bless

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I know, I know!!! Pick me!! Pick me!!!

AVBunyan said:

OK, fine - then the one baptism of Eph. 4:5 - what is it - spritual or water?

Thanks

God bless

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Oh pick me, pick me!

mark1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

AVBunyan said:

OK, fine - then the one baptism of Eph. 4:5 - what is it - spritual or water?

Thanks

God bless

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Spiritual. But baptism is still necessary --- Acts 2:38 “Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” following Luke 24:47 “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name [Jesus Christ] among all nations beginning at Jerusalem.”

AV1611 said:

Spiritual. But baptism is still necessary --- Acts 2:38 “Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” following Luke 24:47 “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name [Jesus Christ] among all nations beginning at Jerusalem.”

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It's been a while since i took math,, Although i did just learn that any number divided by 0 = infinity AND infinity divided by any number = 0.

I do know ONE = ONE.

In this calling there is only ONE baptism required.

OH,, and it's spiritual (baptism into death).