1 Thessalonians 5:9

Van · Sep 4, 2005

Sometimes Calvinists will assert that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 teaches God's preselection of folks unto salvation and damnation, the key premise of the TULIP. Here is the NASB version of the verse: "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The key words are "destined" and "obtaining." The Greek word translated "destined" is the transliterated Greek word "tithemi" which is a verb and means to set; to make; or to establish. Other modern translations render "tithemi" as appoint or appointed in this verse. On the surface, this would seem to be consistent with preselection election, some to salvation and those passed over elected by default to damnation.

However, upon closer inspection, a radically different truth arises from the text. Paul is speaking to born again Christians, they are already new creatures in Christ. And Paul is exhorting them to look forward with hope for the second coming of our Lord Jesus. So I think what Paul is saying is "For God has not made us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

So far, so good, now lets consider "obtaining." The Greek word transliterated is "peripoiesis" and means preservation or possession or obtaining. So again I think the idea is preservation, once we are born again and indwelt, we are predestined to eternal life. Therefore, the verse is best understood to mean, For God has not made us for wrath, but for preserved salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. When we are born again, our faith is protected and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit so that we will inherit eternal life. God made us a new creature and protects us in Christ unto eternal life. This is consistent with 1 Peter 1:3-5.

In this condition, in Christ, we are protected (verse 10) "...so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him."

Raz · Sep 5, 2005

Let's look at a verse at the beginning of the book, to try and discover exactly who Paul is addressing;

1 Thes 1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.

Paul starts out by saying he knows something. What does he say that he knows? That God has chosen the people he is writing to; the church in Thessolonica. How does Paul say that he knows this? "because............"
So Paul sees that the gospel came to them with power, and he draws from that observation the conclusion that beforehand God must have chose them for that to happen.

Hmmmm.........

Dispy · Sep 5, 2005

Van said:
Sometimes Calvinists will assert that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 teaches God's preselection of folks unto salvation and damnation, the key premise of the TULIP. Here is the NASB version of the verse: "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The key words are "destined" and "obtaining." The Greek word translated "destined" is the transliterated Greek word "tithemi" which is a verb and means to set; to make; or to establish. Other modern translations render "tithemi" as appoint or appointed in this verse. On the surface, this would seem to be consistent with preselection election, some to salvation and those passed over elected by default to damnation.

However, upon closer inspection, a radically different truth arises from the text. Paul is speaking to born again Christians, they are already new creatures in Christ. And Paul is exhorting them to look forward with hope for the second coming of our Lord Jesus. So I think what Paul is saying is "For God has not made us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

So far, so good, now lets consider "obtaining." The Greek word transliterated is "peripoiesis" and means preservation or possession or obtaining. So again I think the idea is preservation, once we are born again and indwelt, we are predestined to eternal life. Therefore, the verse is best understood to mean, For God has not made us for wrath, but for preserved salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. When we are born again, our faith is protected and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit so that we will inherit eternal life. God made us a new creature and protects us in Christ unto eternal life. This is consistent with 1 Peter 1:3-5.

In this condition, in Christ, we are protected (verse 10) "...so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him."

To properly understand 1Thess.5:9, one must read from start their reading from verse 1.

Paul in 1Thess.4:13-18 is speaking to believers, and telling them about the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye (believers) have no need that I write unto you.

In this verse Paul is tell those believers that there is not need for them to know the times and seasons because one cannot find any type of sign to look for the rapture. However, Jesus tell those in Matthew 24 for signs of the Tribulation.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The "day of the Lord" here is refering to the Tribulation.

3 For when they (unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye (believers), brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye (believers) are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we (believers) are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us (believers) not sleep, as do others (un-believers); but let us (believers) watch and be sober.
7 For they (un-believers) that sleep sleep in the night; and they (un-believers) that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us (believers), who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath (the day of the Lord/Tribulation), but to obtain salvation (via the rapture) by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us (believers), that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

nobdysfool · Sep 5, 2005

Van said:
Sometimes Calvinists will assert that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 teaches God's preselection of folks unto salvation and damnation, the key premise of the TULIP. Here is the NASB version of the verse: "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The key words are "destined" and "obtaining." The Greek word translated "destined" is the transliterated Greek word "tithemi" which is a verb and means to set; to make; or to establish. Other modern translations render "tithemi" as appoint or appointed in this verse. On the surface, this would seem to be consistent with preselection election, some to salvation and those passed over elected by default to damnation.

However, upon closer inspection, a radically different truth arises from the text. Paul is speaking to born again Christians, they are already new creatures in Christ. And Paul is exhorting them to look forward with hope for the second coming of our Lord Jesus. So I think what Paul is saying is "For God has not made us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

So far, so good, now lets consider "obtaining." The Greek word transliterated is "peripoiesis" and means preservation or possession or obtaining. So again I think the idea is preservation, once we are born again and indwelt, we are predestined to eternal life. Therefore, the verse is best understood to mean, For God has not made us for wrath, but for preserved salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. When we are born again, our faith is protected and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit so that we will inherit eternal life. God made us a new creature and protects us in Christ unto eternal life. This is consistent with 1 Peter 1:3-5.

In this condition, in Christ, we are protected (verse 10) "...so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him."

Van, what are you? On a mission to "destroy" Calvinism? Every post you make has some sort of dig at Calvinism. I think you're obssessed with it. Either that, or you're Ben Johnson's "sock puppet". On second thought you aren't, because you do believe in the Preservation of the Saints, which sends Ben into orbit.

All I can see you trying to do with every post is to undermine the clear teaching of the Word of God regarding His Predestination and Election of Believers unto Salvation. The one thing that you and most other people fail to see is that we Calvinists deal with things as they are, rather than deal in theoreticals about what God may or may not have intended. You may disagree, but Calvinists look around and see incontrovertible and conclusive evidence for the Total Depravity of man. It is on display for all to see. And it cannot be denied the the most successful and longest running Evangelical efforts are Calvinist, which puts to the lie the idea so often bandied about by opponents of Calvinism that Calvinists oppose evangelism. Two words: Evangelism Explosion.

Van · Sep 5, 2005

Thanks Raz, for your observations. We agree that Paul was writing to born again believers. Lets see if we can come to a common understanding concerning 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5. In verses 2-3, Paul indicates that these believers are in his prayers, giving thanks to God for their labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus who is seated at the right hand of our God and Father.

Now in verse 4, Paul still indicating his positive assessment of the Thessalonians life in Christ, he says "knowing, brethren beloved of God, his choice of you..." which indicates born again believers are loved by God and have been chosen. There is no direct reference in this verse as to when they were chosen, either before creation, or during their physical lifetime fits with the construction. But lets read on.

The reason Paul knows that they are brethren - born again Christians - who were chosen by God is explained in verse 5. It says they we compelled by irresistible grace, right? Nope. Here is what it says - for our gospel did not come to you in word only - meaning Paul brought it to them personally, he had come himself. See Acts 17, and Philippians 4:16. Now Paul brought the pure gospel of Christ and preached it in Thessalonica. The power was not only the power of Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, but the power is also in the Gospel, see Romans 1:16. And this gospel was presented with full conviction, Paul is totally committed to the gospel which he received from Lord Jesus Himself. And since Paul came to Thessalonica, not only does Paul know them, but the Thessalonians know Paul personally, for Paul continues in verse 5 - "just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake."

In summary, Paul knew the Thessalonians first hand, he had observed them as they received the gospel and therefore knew God had chosen to spiritually baptize them into Christ, see Acts 17:4. And again in the passage in Philippians 4, Paul says that the Philippians gift to Paul which helped Paul sustain himself so he could preach at Thessalonica, had brought spiritual rewards indicating folks were born again in Thessalonica.

Van · Sep 6, 2005

If the focus of verse 9 was the future rapture of the church, rather than our hopeful and sober walk in the here and now, why say in verse 8 to put on the armor of God. No, the focus is on our salvation preserved by the protection of God, so lets not worry, but build each other up so we can serve Christ without distracting doubts.

cygnusx1 · Sep 8, 2005

nobdysfool said:
Van, what are you? On a mission to "destroy" Calvinism? Every post you make has some sort of dig at Calvinism. I think you're obssessed with it. Either that, or you're Ben Johnson's "sock puppet". On second thought you aren't, because you do believe in the Preservation of the Saints, which sends Ben into orbit.

Click to expand...

I am finding such a mixed feeling of sadness and laughter ........ I need a drink

Van · Sep 8, 2005

Many of my posts defending that once we are spiritually baptized into Christ and and we are given the Helper which dwells with us forever, are consistent with the P of the Tulip. So I am not against Calvinists when they are right, only when I think they are wrong. I am not biased againist them, I believe in original sin, and a host of other reformed tenets. But John Calvin was clueless concerning predestination and election. And if he thought regeneration occured under the Old Covenant he was wrong there as well.

nobdysfool · Sep 9, 2005

Van said:
But John Calvin was clueless concerning predestination and election. And if he thought regeneration occured under the Old Covenant he was wrong there as well.

Oh man! I laughed until I was out of breath over this one! This is one of the most hilarious statements I've seen! I'm just wondering how a man who has admitted he doesn't understand Calvinism could come to this bold declaration!

How can he be so sure Calvin is wrong, when he has admitted he doesn't understand what Calvin has said?

Seems to be a disconnect in there somewhere.....

Van · Sep 9, 2005

Regeneration does not occur under the Old Covenant. Regeneration is fundamental to the New Covenant.

In Matthew 19:28, says of His disciples, you who have followed Me, referring to who have left everything, and have not clung to the treasures of this world like the rich young ruler did, in the regeneration when the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] will sit [speaking of a future occurance] on His glorious throne, when Jesus sits at the right hand of God, you shall also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In other world, in the kingdom of God. So we see our regeneration results in obtaining a place in the kingdom of God. No regeneration, no entry into the kingdom. Rebirth is necessary to enter the kingdom. This is the clear teaching of Matthew 19:28.

In Titus 3:5, Paul teaches that we are saved by the washing of regeneration, therefore no one is saved, meaning no one is positionally sanctified, except by being spiritually baptized into Christ where we undergo the circumcision done without hands, where the washing of regeneration occurs, where we arise in Christ a new creation, where we are reborn. Next, after we are reborn, given a new heart with a clear conscience, we are indwelt with the Helper sent by the risen Christ. Jesus did not sent the Helper under the Old Covenant, this pouring out of the Spirit of Christ to permanently dwell within us, occurs under the New Covenant after the washing of regeneration. Note that the Holy Spirit is poured out "through Jesus Christ our Savior."

depthdeception · Sep 9, 2005

Van said:
Many of my posts defending that once we are spiritually baptized into Christ and and we are given the Helper which dwells with us forever, are consistent with the P of the Tulip. So I am not against Calvinists when they are right, only when I think they are wrong. I am not biased againist them, I believe in original sin, and a host of other reformed tenets. But John Calvin was clueless concerning predestination and election. And if he thought regeneration occured under the Old Covenant he was wrong there as well.

Don't blame Calvin for Calvinism's absurdity. Calvin's discussion about the predestination, foreknowledge, election, etc. as descriptive terms of God's relation to the created order was at least sane. It was Beza and others that followed Calvin who made what was merely descriptive in Calvin to be the proscriptive *cough* that we find in "Calvinism."

nobdysfool · Sep 9, 2005

Van said:
Regeneration does not occur under the Old Covenant. Regeneration is fundamental to the New Covenant.

In Matthew 19:28, says of His disciples, you who have followed Me, referring to who have left everything, and have not clung to the treasures of this world like the rich young ruler did, in the regeneration when the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] will sit [speaking of a future occurance] on His glorious throne, when Jesus sits at the right hand of God, you shall also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In other world, in the kingdom of God. So we see our regeneration results in obtaining a place in the kingdom of God. No regeneration, no entry into the kingdom. Rebirth is necessary to enter the kingdom. This is the clear teaching of Matthew 19:28.

A careful reading of this passage, paying attention to the context, and checking the Greek will show that the regeneration Christ refers to here is actually restoration, when Jesus will sit on the Throne of His Glory.

From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.

This happens at the end of the age. To be consistent, you would then have to say that regeneration is still a future event for NT believers. I think it is obvious that we are not yet sitting on thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes. That is yet future for us. To be consistent, you would have to say that we are not yet regenerated, and that creates all sorts of problems for your soteriology. This verse is not saying what you want it to say.

Van said:
In Titus 3:5, Paul teaches that we are saved by the washing of regeneration, therefore no one is saved, meaning no one is positionally sanctified, except by being spiritually baptized into Christ where we undergo the circumcision done without hands, where the washing of regeneration occurs, where we arise in Christ a new creation, where we are reborn.

So now the OT believers, aka Saints, were not even positionally sanctified? Then we must conclude that you don't believe that they were saved at all, until after death. Scripture says "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that judgment". There is no opportunity to be saved after death. If you die unregenerate, you're toast. No second chance. How do you square that with John 3:3?

Van said:
Next, after we are reborn, given a new heart with a clear conscience, we are indwelt with the Helper sent by the risen Christ. Jesus did not sent the Helper under the Old Covenant, this pouring out of the Spirit of Christ to permanently dwell within us, occurs under the New Covenant after the washing of regeneration. Note that the Holy Spirit is poured out "through Jesus Christ our Savior."

Seems all very nice and tidy, but it's not quite biblical. Man must be regenerated before he can receive spiritual things, because Paul says "While we were dead in trespasses and sins", meaning during the time were dead, at the same time as we were in the state of being dead, GOD quickened us, made us to live, brought us to life, i.e. regenerated us. "The natural man does not receive the things of the spirit, for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them (be cognizant of them, understand them) because they are spritually discerned." Jesus said that "Unless a man is born again (regenerate) he cannot SEE (perceive, be cognizant of, understand, apprehend) the Kingdom of God."

It is quite conceivable that the spiritual aspect of being baptized into Christ, being washed, regenerated and renewed is all wrapped up in that one act of regeneration which happens first, and we respond in faith, repentance, and receive Christ as the indwelling spirit. The regenerated spirit, by nature, believes in and trusts God. It is not a deliberate act, it is a natural response, the same as Adam didn't have to deliberately believe in God before the Fall, his nature naturally believed God implicitly. Regeneration restores us to the pre-Fall nature of Adam with regard to faith in and trust in God.

Van · Sep 9, 2005

Regeneration means rebirth not restoration. Calvinists must redefine the meaning of word to avoid the reality that their doctrine does not mesh with scripture. Our rebirth has two components, spiritual rebirth and bodily rebirth. We, everyone "in Christ" is sitting in the heavenlies right now, not some future date, and the Apostles are there as well. Are they reigning right now, yes according to Covenent Theology, no according to traditional dispensationalism. Nobdysfool has taken the traditional dispensationist view here to avoid the reality that regeneration occurs after Christ as taught by Matthew 19:28.

So now the OT believers, aka Saints, were not even positionally sanctified?

Right, nobody was spiritually baptized into Christ's death, until Christ died.

How do I square that with John 3:3? Asked and answered. Repeating questions that have been answered is the sophistry of argument ad nauseum. To repeat, the OT saints obtained mercy through faith. Hebrews 11:2. They did not enter the kingdom of God upon death, they had not been regenerated because Christ's sacrifice had not been accepted by God as the ransom for the many, including the OT saints. There had to wait in a compartment in Hades, just as Luke 16:19-31 says for the fourth time.

Lets turn to the verse that says God quicken us. This occurs when we are made alive together with Christ and this occurs when we are spiritually baptized into Christ and we are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ so that we are in Him and He is in us. Before this happens we are unregenerate, we have not been made alive. After this happens, we are regenerate, we have been made alive together with Christ. We are not made alive separate from Christ. So this does not support in any way the idea of regeneration before faith.

The idea that man cannot see or be aware of the kingdom of God before regeneration is a complete and obvious misreading of scripture. Look down to verse 5 of John 3 and you will see that see means enter. Folks, Calvinism will not stand up to study.

So what we have is the reference to two verses, without any references being provided to make it difficult to check the context, which in no way supports Calvinism.

It is quite conceivable that the spiritual aspect of being baptized into Christ, being washed, regenerated and renewed is all wrapped up in that one act of regeneration which happens first, and we respond in faith, repentance, and receive Christ as the indwelling spirit.

Yes, it is quite conceivable, this is the conjecture of Calvinism, but as I have shown it is inconsistent with scripture. When are we baptized into Christ? Before we believe or after we believe. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Folks we must believe in order to be saved and to be saved under the New Covenant is to be placed in Christ. When we are placed in Christ, spiritually baptized into His death, we undergo the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

The issue is regeneration and regeneration simply means rebirth, and we are born again from above when we are regenerated during our spiritual baptism in Christ, and we arise a new creation - spiritual rebirth - with a new heart and a clear conscience and with our faith protected. We are then, after being made firm in Christ indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration does not occur under the Old Covenant because no one is spiritually baptized into Christ's death before the cross. Folks, it is a lock.

nobdysfool · Sep 12, 2005

Van said:
Regeneration means rebirth not restoration. Calvinists must redefine the meaning of word to avoid the reality that their doctrine does not mesh with scripture. Our rebirth has two components, spiritual rebirth and bodily rebirth. We, everyone "in Christ" is sitting in the heavenlies right now, not some future date, and the Apostles are there as well. Are they reigning right now, yes according to Covenent Theology, no according to traditional dispensationalism. Nobdysfool has taken the traditional dispensationist view here to avoid the reality that regeneration occurs after Christ as taught by Matthew 19:28.

[/font]
Right, nobody was spiritually baptized into Christ's death, until Christ died.

How do I square that with John 3:3? Asked and answered. Repeating questions that have been answered is the sophistry of argument ad nauseum. To repeat, the OT saints obtained mercy through faith. Hebrews 11:2. They did not enter the kingdom of God upon death, they had not been regenerated because Christ's sacrifice had not been accepted by God as the ransom for the many, including the OT saints. There had to wait in a compartment in Hades, just as Luke 16:19-31 says for the fourth time.

Lets turn to the verse that says God quicken us. This occurs when we are made alive together with Christ and this occurs when we are spiritually baptized into Christ and we are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ so that we are in Him and He is in us. Before this happens we are unregenerate, we have not been made alive. After this happens, we are regenerate, we have been made alive together with Christ. We are not made alive separate from Christ. So this does not support in any way the idea of regeneration before faith.

The idea that man cannot see or be aware of the kingdom of God before regeneration is a complete and obvious misreading of scripture. Look down to verse 5 of John 3 and you will see that see means enter. Folks, Calvinism will not stand up to study.

So what we have is the reference to two verses, without any references being provided to make it difficult to check the context, which in no way supports Calvinism.

[/font]
Yes, it is quite conceivable, this is the conjecture of Calvinism, but as I have shown it is inconsistent with scripture. When are we baptized into Christ? Before we believe or after we believe. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Folks we must believe in order to be saved and to be saved under the New Covenant is to be placed in Christ. When we are placed in Christ, spiritually baptized into His death, we undergo the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

The issue is regeneration and regeneration simply means rebirth, and we are born again from above when we are regenerated during our spiritual baptism in Christ, and we arise a new creation - spiritual rebirth - with a new heart and a clear conscience and with our faith protected. We are then, after being made firm in Christ indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration does not occur under the Old Covenant because no one is spiritually baptized into Christ's death before the cross. Folks, it is a lock.

Baptismal regeneration, whether physical or spiritual, is heresy. You are teaching Roman Catholic dogma, whether you want to admit it or not. It is heresy, and totally negates your argument.

Regeneration is UNTO faith in Christ, as the scriptures teach. Regeneration happens in this life, not after death. If the OT saints were not regenerate during their lifetimes, they could not be regenerated after death, and the inevitable conclusion of your doctrine is that the OT saints were not saved, are not saved, and are not in heaven now.

You cannot avoid that conclusion, which shows your baptismal regeneration doctrine to be completely unscriptural. You have not rightly divided the Word of Truth, because you eliminate an entire group of believers from salvation. Your doctrine demands that OT believers are unsaved. I have called your bluff. Now own up to it.

Van · Sep 12, 2005

Regeneration occuring during our spiritual baptism into Christ is plainly taught by scripture. Romans 6:5.

Hebrews 11:39-40 clearly teaches that the OT saints entered heaven under the superior Covenant in the blood of Jesus.

I have provided the scriptures which clearly teaches being born again occurs during our spiritual baptism into Christ, for "in Him" we arise a new creation.

nobdysfool · Sep 12, 2005

Van said:
Regeneration occuring during our spiritual baptism into Christ is plainly taught by scripture. Romans 6:5.

Hebrews 11:39-40 clearly teaches that the OT saints entered heaven under the superior Covenant in the blood of Jesus.

I have provided the scriptures which clearly teaches being born again occurs during our spiritual baptism into Christ, for "in Him" we arise a new creation.

Baptismal Regeneration is heresy.

Van · Sep 12, 2005

Regeneration during our spiritual baptism into Christ is scriptural truth, Romans 6:3-6.

1 Thessalonians 5:9

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