1 John 3

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 5, 2012

I'd like to discuss 1 John 3:4-7 and what it means...

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Why would John write this so many years after the cross if obeying the law was not still the standard of righteousness?

JohnMarsten · Feb 6, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
I'd like to discuss 1 John 3:4-7 and what it means...

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Why would John write this so many years after the cross if obeying the law was not still the standard of righteousness?

this is one of the most tragic verses in the bible, when I read it, it shows me that we all have gone astray and fallen short of the glory of God. I dont know if there is anyone in here who can call himself righteous....

I want to have a look at verse ten:

10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

and this is the most crucial point here, of course one might argue what it means to love their brother and sister, but IMHO it should be the starting point, lets say the ten commandments are still valid, ok, could be, even then I think the eleventh commandment is the most important one... and iMHO it doesnt only mean that we will not murder our brother if we love him...

omanid · Feb 6, 2012

Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 7:20

omanid · Feb 6, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
and iMHO it doesnt only mean that we will not murder our brother if we love him...

...what?

JohnMarsten · Feb 6, 2012

omanid said:
...what?

WHat I meant:

It is said that the first four commandments are in regard to God and the other six in regard to other human beings...

Now some people say, that we manifest our love if we dont steal, dont lie, dont murder... these are IMHO passive things that we dont do... you dont have to necessarily love your brother and sister if you dont steal from them...

sorry if it was confusing to you...

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 6, 2012

I agree that the Law shows us the 'do not's' but that is a superficial understanding of it. In it's truest sense, the Law is a Law of love, it's not only passive but active, that if we understand it the way that Jesus taught it, will cause the fruits of the Spirit to manifest itself in us.

To the wicked, it is condemnation but to those that are abiding in Christ and He in them, it is a Law of liberty. Do you think Jesus found the Law a burden or an expression of His character?

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 6, 2012

In reference to the above verse, why is sin, which we all understand is against us, compared directly to the Law? When we read that the Law was against us, does that not mean when manifested as sin through it's transgression? Of course, we know that without Christ, we are lost in sin, so the same holds true that without our redeemer and His Grace, we are lost to the Law, because our natural inclination is to go against the Law of God.

So if transgressing the Law is sin, what is obedience to it? What is gaining a greater undstanding of it in light of Christ's teachings?

In our world, if breaking a law results in penalty, does it mean if there was no law we would be safe? That would only result in more lawlessness. Or does obedience to the law and understanding why they are there, give us the peace and and safety we want?

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 7, 2012

Anyone else have thoughts?

Is the Law in and of itself good or bad or whether they are obeyed or transgressed?

JohnMarsten · Feb 7, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
Anyone else have thoughts?

Is the Law in and of itself good or bad or whether they are obeyed or transgressed?

I heard that circumsision in itself is very good, its hygienic, actually better than being uncircumsised, why not do it if its good and healthy in itself?

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 7, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
I heard that circumsision in itself is very good, its hygienic, actually better than being uncircumsised, why not do it if its good and healthy in itself?

Good point... is circumcision good or bad in and of itself? The reason why it's done may be however.

ricker · Feb 8, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
So if transgressing the Law is sin, what is obedience to it? What is gaining a greater undstanding of it in light of Christ's teachings?

The verse doesn't say transgression of the law is sin.That is backwards. Rather it says 4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is shown to be something seperate from transgression of the law in the first phrase. In the second phrase it says if we sin, we break the law. This doesn't put Gentile Christian under the law, except to say we are all lost and in desperate need of Jesus.

I don't expect you to see the difference, but there is one.

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 8, 2012

ricker said:
The verse doesn't say transgression of the law is sin.That is backwards. Rather it says 4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is shown to be something seperate from transgression of the law in the first phrase. In the second phrase it says if we sin, we break the law. This doesn't put Gentile Christian under the law, except to say we are all lost and in desperate need of Jesus.

I don't expect you to see the difference, but there is one.

Can you give an example of a sin that isn't related to the decalogue?

To my understanding, when you see precepts of the
Law as Jesus taught them... the spirit of the Law and not just the letter, all wrongdoing is related.

JohnMarsten · Feb 8, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
Can you give an example of a sin that isn't related to the decalogue?

To my understanding, when you see presepts of the
Law as Jesus taught them... the spirit of the Law and not just the letter, all wrongdoing is related.

sin that isnt directly related to the decalogue?

hmmm....

well, hope I am getting you right here...

IMHO there are lots of things that could fall into that category...

think about the pharisee that thanked God that he isnt like the other guy...

THere seems nothing wrong with it, at least in direct comparison with the decalogue...

Or the guys that didnt help the guy who lying in some place and dying?

the decalogue didnt teach them to help others...

all these things were cause by a lack of love for each other, and that is why Jesus gave us the eleventh commandment...

IMHO it is the hardest one to be kept... and I think this is because we are a sinful breed in a sinful world...

and I dont really think that we can do much about it other than pray and wait that God/the Holy Spirit makes it happen and will forgive us along the way...

its like there is a minute that everything is Ok, and then you have a bad moment and suddenly dont fulfill this very commandment, I think these are instances where our physical nature mixes up with our new spiritual self, for me this is the greatest conflict... but I am confident that the Holy Spirit will accomplish it in the long run...

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 8, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
sin that isnt directly related to the decalogue?

hmmm....

well, hope I am getting you right here...

IMHO there are lots of things that could fall into that category...

think about the pharisee that thanked God that he isnt like the other guy...

THere seems nothing wrong with it, at least in direct comparison with the decalogue...

It may seem to not be connected but this is the same sin that Lucifer began with, pride, or transgressing the 2nd.

JohnMarsten said:
Or the guys that didnt help the guy who lying in some place and dying?

the decalogue didnt teach them to help others...

all these things were cause by a lack of love for each other, and that is why Jesus gave us the eleventh commandment...

The eleventh, as you call it, is actually a summation of the first four and last six respectfully. If you have no love for your fellow man, and all love in us comes from God, then you are in violation of the 1st, at the very least, as you do not recognize God with your lack of love. Pharoah suffered this when his heart was hardened and he denied God.

JohnMarsten · Feb 9, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
It may seem to not be connected but this is the same sin that Lucifer began with, pride, or transgressing the 2nd.

The eleventh, as you call it, is actually a summation of the first four and last six respectfully. If you have no love for your fellow man, and all love in us comes from God, then you are in violation of the 1st, at the very least, as you do not recognize God with your lack of love. Pharoah suffered this when his heart was hardened and he denied God.

So why does Jesus say, 'I new command I give you' ??

Wouldnt you agree that the situation in the OT times was quite a bit different? with hate your enemy and stuff?

I dont really think its so much of a summation rather than a completely new level. If you think about the last six commandment they teach how proceed with people or rather how not to handle things.

The new commandment might be of course related and one can bring those commandments under this new one, for sure, but one can actually keep the six without actually paying attention to the eleventh...

children might obey their parents because they know they are supposed to, but maybe their parents are complete XXXX and they will not even like them...

people who are well off will not steal from the house of the poor fellow in the church but they might never ever invite them to their place or even treat seriously nor will they prepare to kill him, there wont be anything in his place they will covet

etc. etc....

One might of course argue about this assumption but the point is that keeping the commandments does not necessarily start with keeping the eleventh, even though it might be much easier and be more rewarding to everyone, a subtle difference maybe but still...

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 9, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
So why does Jesus say, 'I new command I give you' ??

Wouldnt you agree that the situation in the OT times was quite a bit different? with hate your enemy and stuff?

I dont really think its so much of a summation rather than a completely new level. If you think about the last six commandment they teach how proceed with people or rather how not to handle things.

The Israelites understanding of the Commandments was completely legalistic, having no comprehension of the love that is intertwined with them. This 'new commandment' was simply a better, or deeper way of understanding the Law. That is why it was said that God would write them on our hearts... not as a simple checklist of requirements but as an emotional, heartfelt conviction of their true meaning.

God is all about loving relationships and His law is part of that structure...

ricker · Feb 12, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
Can you give an example of a sin that isn't related to the decalogue?

To my understanding, when you see precepts of the
Law as Jesus taught them... the spirit of the Law and not just the letter, all wrongdoing is related.

No response to my post except to create a rabbit trail?

There is sin apart from the law according to the Bible.

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 12, 2012

ricker said:
No response to my post except to create a rabbit trail?

There is sin apart from the law according to the Bible.

How is asking you to support your contention with an example creating a rabbit trail? Just you making a statement that 'there is sin apart from the law' doesn't make it so without Biblical evidence.

When I read 1 John 3:4 it plainly says that 'sin is the trangression of the Law' not some sin or most sin or very little sin or sin used to be...

1 John 3

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