1 Corinthians 6:9

GwynApNudd said:

I am not going to go around this circle again. nothing has changed from the last go-round.



I don't see any point in continuing to argue whether or not it simply "condemns homosexuality," or if Paul is saying something more universal and more profound. (Titus 3:9)

Regardless, we are told, repeatedly, not to focus on the other person's sins but on our own. Matthew 5:17-48; Matthew 7:1-5; Romans 1:18-2:3; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:9-10; James 2:8-11 I'm sure that we could find many more if we try.

Does this mean that we can't instruct or counsel others? Of course not, but there are Biblical principles governing these activities.



You are wrong. That is exactly what it means.
[bible]Romans 4:1-15[/bible]
[bible]Galatians 5:1-5[/bible]



Not quite:
[bible]Romans 6:1-14[/bible]
We become more Christlike by allowing His grace to work within us.
[bible]Romans 6:15-18[/bible]
We are not slaves to sin and to the law which condemns it. We are slaves to Christ's Will.



Adultery, prostitution (the main type of fornication in Biblical times), and incest have an immediate, negative impact on families and society -- in the form of broken homes and destroyed lives. The Bible explains this in various teaching verses, and more importantly, it shows the devistation it causes in its histories (for example David and Bathsheba, or Amnon, Tamar, and Absalom). The general case against fornication is in Acts 15, where it is one of four sins specifically retained from the Holiness Code.

On the other hand, neither Leviticus 18:22 nor Leviticus 20:13 give a specific reason for the ban on "man-lying." The framing verses at the beginning and end of those chapters explain that the laws within are given to keep the Children of Israel separate from the nations and from their gods. In other words, it says that they are part of the Holiness Code. Those laws in these chapters that are also moral laws are repeated elsewhere, with explanations and illustrations as I noted above.

Every time "homosexuality" has had the same kind of immediate, negative impact on families and on society as adultery, prostitution, and incest, it was not due to the mere fact of homosexuality, but because there was also adultery, prostitution, or incest.





There are four verses that speak of the holiness code ban on "man-lying." And there is Romans 1:26-27 and a claim can be made for Jude 1:7 (with a likely parallel in 2 Peter 2:6). I will start a new thread examining Romans 1:18-2:3 this weekend if I can find the time. I'll look at Jude and 2 Peter after that.



I would not phrase it so venomously or (for reasons already given, invoke "the law"), but basically this agrees with what Paul writes in Romans 6 (quoted above).

But I don't claim that. Just because homosexuality is "legal" (absent comingling with immorality) does not mean I claim that it is right for everyone, or right under any circumstances. I am Guided by Romans 14:
[bible]Romans 14:16-23[/bible]
[bible]Romans 14:1-3[/bible]

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If we aren't arguing whether or not homosexuality is condemned, then what are we arguing about? I understand that works alone do not save, and I never said that they did. I know that faith saves. However, are we to ignore the commands of God and say "I believe in Christ so even if I willingly live against His laws, I'm saved"? We don't have freedom to do what God's law forbids (Romans 6:1, 15 ; 8:4) because we have grace. We are saved no matter how often we falter because we have grace. That does not mean it is ok to do things that God says is wrong. Paul teaches often that we are to be like Christ. What is Christ like? Well, for one, He is sinless.

There are sins that do not have immediate negative impact, but they are still sins. We are still to try to be holy, and to be like Christ, as I said before. Christ didn't speak out against or contradict the law Our Father laid down, He encouraged following it and rebuked the Pharisees for not upholding it and instead relying on their own traditions. Again, I am not saying we are under the law, but also, that does not mean it is to be ignored.

The law is still good and holy, it brought sin and death because no one could live up to it word for word because of the weakness of flesh. The law couldn't save, Christ does. The ceremonial aspect of the Mosaic law has been set aside (Col. 2:14-17). Although believers aren't in bondage to the law anymore, the law still reflects the moral character of God and His will for His creatures. Anyway, the point is, we shouldn't be going directly against what He says is wrong, and our moral code does come from the Old Testament even if we are not enslaved to it.

There is nothing in the Bible that says homosexuality is not condemned. Marriage is a God-given covenant, and it is to be between a man and a woman. Anything else (homosexuality, fornication, etc) is wrong. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise in scripture, which is essentially what we are talking about.

HaloHope said:

I still have yet to see how homosexuality is reffered to here.

Im glad you put "believe" in your earliar post too by the way. I can fully accept that you believe what you see as changing the concept of marriage is a sin. I believe differently. Im afraid neither of us "KNOW".

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Well, we can take Jesus as an example.
Jesus is the embodiment of truth. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. (I can't remember the chapterrnumbe

He quoted an old idea from Genesis about marriage, where a man would leave his his parents and join with a women to become one flesh. (Genesis 19)

He mentioned that both a man and a women would do that.

(take note although women weren't recognized as equal as men back in Jesus time and a lot of Scripture refers to men, such as lusting, this particular passage specifies a union between two people: a man and a women).

You can believe that he would speak differently in todays times, but he quoted an old passage about marriage being between a man and a women and affirmed his belief that we are created male and female and the one flesh principle applies to only males and females.

After all the first marriage, a union, happened between Adam and Eve, the only two people at the time. This idea of a marriage carried on through out the centuries. But over time, people have changed the idea of it to compensate for modern times.

WashedBytheSon said:

What makes you think homosexuality is OK according to God?

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Because of my own personal relationship with God. Because of the way I love my girlfriend so much. Because of the way I came back to God (I have posted a testimonial somewhere here before but I can do so again when im not about to dash to work). Because of when I read the Bible even before I felt any sexual feelings I never saw condemnation of homosexuality in the verses used to condemn homosexuality.

There a fair few reasons to begin with.

JohnChapter14 said:

Well, we can take Jesus as an example.
Jesus is the embodiment of truth. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. (I can't remember the chapterrnumbe

He quoted an old idea from Genesis about marriage, where a man would leave his his parents and join with a women to become one flesh. (Genesis 19)

He mentioned that both a man and a women would do that.

(take note although women weren't recognized as equal as men back in Jesus time and a lot of Scripture refers to men, such as lusting, this particular passage specifies a union between two people: a man and a women).

You can believe that he would speak differently in todays times, but he quoted an old passage about marriage being between a man and a women and affirmed his belief that we are created male and female and the one flesh principle applies to only males and females.

After all the first marriage, a union, happened between Adam and Eve, the only two people at the time. This idea of a marriage carried on through out the centuries. But over time, people have changed the idea of it to compensate for modern times.

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I am adamantly convinced that if Jesus where here today he would be pro-equality for everyone. Including gay marriage. I do not believe he was opposed to it, even back in Biblical times. It was just not mentioned because of course the majority are hetrosexual.

How do I come to this conclusion? As Jesus is definately pro-love.

And the Church that loves Lord God and His righteous wisdom and instruction says :

WashedBytheSon said:

If we aren't arguing whether or not homosexuality is condemned, then what are we arguing about? I understand that works alone do not save, and I never said that they did. I know that faith saves. However, are we to ignore the commands of God and say "I believe in Christ so even if I willingly live against His laws, I'm saved"? We don't have freedom to do what God's law forbids (Romans 6:1, 15 ; 8:4) because we have grace. We are saved no matter how often we falter because we have grace. That does not mean it is ok to do things that God says is wrong. Paul teaches often that we are to be like Christ. What is Christ like? Well, for one, He is sinless.

There are sins that do not have immediate negative impact, but they are still sins. We are still to try to be holy, and to be like Christ, as I said before. Christ didn't speak out against or contradict the law Our Father laid down, He encouraged following it and rebuked the Pharisees for not upholding it and instead relying on their own traditions. Again, I am not saying we are under the law, but also, that does not mean it is to be ignored.

The law is still good and holy, it brought sin and death because no one could live up to it word for word because of the weakness of flesh. The law couldn't save, Christ does. The ceremonial aspect of the Mosaic law has been set aside (Col. 2:14-17). Although believers aren't in bondage to the law anymore, the law still reflects the moral character of God and His will for His creatures. Anyway, the point is, we shouldn't be going directly against what He says is wrong, and our moral code does come from the Old Testament even if we are not enslaved to it.

There is nothing in the Bible that says homosexuality is not condemned. Marriage is a God-given covenant, and it is to be between a man and a woman. Anything else (homosexuality, fornication, etc) is wrong. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise in scripture, which is essentially what we are talking about.

Click to expand...

Jesus IS here today. Haven't you heard? He is ALIVE and He still condemns
workers of iniquity, and especially who work their iniquity in His name.
Have you heard? Judgment will come first to the house of the Lord!

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


Definitions of Iniquity:

1. Gross immorality or injustice; wickedness.
2. A grossly immoral act; a sin.

1. absence of moral or spiritual values; "the powers of darkness"
2. morally objectionable behavior

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:10-13 KJV

HaloHope said:

I am adamantly convinced that if Jesus where here today he would be pro-equality for everyone. Including gay marriage. I do not believe he was opposed to it, even back in Biblical times. It was just not mentioned because of course the majority are hetrosexual.

How do I come to this conclusion? As Jesus is definately pro-love.

Click to expand...

Dear Halohope,

Because of my own personal relationship with God. Because of the way I love my girlfriend so much. Because of the way I came back to God (I have posted a testimonial somewhere here before but I can do so again when im not about to dash to work). Because of when I read the Bible even before I felt any sexual feelings I never saw condemnation of homosexuality in the verses used to condemn homosexuality.

Click to expand...

personal feelings are no guarentee of being in line with God's purposes. One has to test them against the truth of scripture and partculalry Jesus Christ's teaching in the NT.
I am afraid your testimony tests false to me. I would say the scripture is clear and it is impossible to justify what you are claiming., nor from scripture have you been able to.

HaloHope said:

I am adamantly convinced that if Jesus where here today he would be pro-equality for everyone. Including gay marriage. I do not believe he was opposed to it, even back in Biblical times. It was just not mentioned because of course the majority are hetrosexual.

How do I come to this conclusion? As Jesus is definately pro-love.

Click to expand...

what is love?

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
1 Corinthians 13

1 an intense feeling of deep affection.
- affection: a feeling of fondness or liking.
- fondness: having an affection or liking for.
- likeness: a regard or fondness for something.

2 a deep romantic or sexual attachment to someone.
3 a great interest and pleasure in something.
4 a person or thing that one loves.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/love?view=uk

When Jesus said to love others as ourself, this did not apply anything along the lines of sexuality. Sexuality is not love, but an expression of it. Love exists outside the bounds of sex. Love is beyond that.

Jesus is pro-love, but sexuality is not love, but an expression of something. Is it wrong to fornicate in a loving relationship? Yes, it is. Why is it wrong? Because it goes back to Genesis. What happened in Genesis? Two people were created: A man and a women, and they married and became one flesh.

I am taught by Scriptures in the belief that God created men and women for each other and not any other way. In my belief, to change what was considered to be "good" is to pervert something God created. That is one reason why I believe same-sex marriage is perverted in a godly sense. And just as fornicators express themselves through sex in a loving way and sin because of their actions, so do same-sex couples who fornicate themselves through man-made concepts and ideas of what marriage is really about.

Along the lines of our man-made definition of love, "2 a deep romantic or sexual attachment to someone," this is a concept invented to justify our desire and passions. Foricators, adulterators, and polygamists all fall into this catagory. Jesus once preached that lust from the heart is a sin in itself, adultery of the heart.

Lust:
1 strong sexual desire.
2 a passionate desire for something.
3 [SIZE=-1]Theology[/SIZE] a sensuous appetite regarded as sinful.

A Strong sexual desire is lusting. The only thing that breaks the burning passion of sexual desire is marriage, and even then, when one is married, it is a sin to lust for individuals who are not your wife/husband.

I believe Love is not sex. I believe Love is beyond that. Love is not tied down as some definition that is about sex, which unfortuantly a lot of people believe to be. What is the first thing most North American couples have problems with in their relationship? Sex! They believe love and sex are tied together, and this kind of thinking is permiated into their minds and hearts by the people of this evil world.

We are taught all about love as being sexual, which is not true. God is love. Jesus love is godly love and Corinthians 13 gives a good description of it. The idea of love in the eyes of Christian is no where near anything sexual. Only through a marriage should love be sexually expressed.

Yes, you may love your partner deeply, but the kinds of things you do may be sinful. I won't get into your relationships. David and Jonathan is a good example of this, because their love is a deep friendship that goes beyond love for wives and husbands, just as our love for Jesus goes beyond our wives and husbands. I love Jesus more than I love anyone else: my parents, my girlfriend, even myself, but I always fail to express it.
I could do everything gays claim Jonathan and David did: kiss Jesus, weep over him greatly, give him all my clothing to honor him, make a covenant with him out of love. I can do all those things, but what is the point in boasting! I am not trying to boast here about anything but to give you an example about love.
There is nothing wrong with holding/ hugging/ holding hands/kiss with your partner, but what is wrong is a perverted idea about marriage and a perverted idea about sexuality within this sinful world.

HaloHope said:

Because of my own personal relationship with God. Because of the way I love my girlfriend so much. Because of the way I came back to God (I have posted a testimonial somewhere here before but I can do so again when im not about to dash to work). Because of when I read the Bible even before I felt any sexual feelings I never saw condemnation of homosexuality in the verses used to condemn homosexuality.

There a fair few reasons to begin with.

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How didn't you see the verses that condemn homosexuality, or take them to mean that way? Specifically the verses in Leviticus are quite clear (even if they are in Leviticus) and so are the verses in Romans.

WashedBytheSon said:

How didn't you see the verses that condemn homosexuality, or take them to mean that way? Specifically the verses in Leviticus are quite clear (even if they are in Leviticus) and so are the verses in Romans.

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Bare with me everyone, a lot to reply to here..

Firstly (as have been said by many people here) many people read these verses in a different context.

Levitical law is old covenant and has been revoked in my eyes at least (and I'm not entirely sure those verses are even do condemn homosexuality anyway)

The verses in Romans are about pagan practices.

IamRedeemed said:

Jesus IS here today. Haven't you heard? He is ALIVE and He still condemns
workers of iniquity, and especially who work their iniquity in His name.
Have you heard? Judgment will come first to the house of the Lord!

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


Definitions of Iniquity:

1. Gross immorality or injustice; wickedness.
2. A grossly immoral act; a sin.

1. absence of moral or spiritual values; "the powers of darkness"
2. morally objectionable behavior

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:10-13 KJV

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Telling me that I am "working iniquity" is not going to make me believe I am.

Personally I think that all those who condemn others are working iniquity by pushing people from the house of God. But I doubt my opinions going to stop people being hateful any time soon.


God is the only person who can tell me that being myself is wrong. He has never done that, not even in the Bible.

brightmorningstar said:

Dear Halohope, personal feelings are no guarentee of being in line with God's purposes. One has to test them against the truth of scripture and partculalry Jesus Christ's teaching in the NT.
I am afraid your testimony tests false to me. I would say the scripture is clear and it is impossible to justify what you are claiming., nor from scripture have you been able to.

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I am afraid I shall take God's direct communication to me, and the way I read the Bible over how someone else tells me to do so.

JohnChapter14 said:

what is love?

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
1 Corinthians 13

1 an intense feeling of deep affection.
- affection: a feeling of fondness or liking.
- fondness: having an affection or liking for.
- likeness: a regard or fondness for something.

2 a deep romantic or sexual attachment to someone.
3 a great interest and pleasure in something.
4 a person or thing that one loves.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/love?view=uk

When Jesus said to love others as ourself, this did not apply anything along the lines of sexuality. Sexuality is not love, but an expression of it. Love exists outside the bounds of sex. Love is beyond that.

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So far we are in complete agreement here

JohnChapter14 said:

Jesus is pro-love, but sexuality is not love, but an expression of something. Is it wrong to fornicate in a loving relationship? Yes, it is. Why is it wrong? Because it goes back to Genesis. What happened in Genesis? Two people were created: A man and a women, and they married and became one flesh.

I am taught by Scriptures in the belief that God created men and women for each other and not any other way. In my belief, to change what was considered to be "good" is to pervert something God created. That is one reason why I believe same-sex marriage is perverted in a godly sense. And just as fornicators express themselves through sex in a loving way and sin because of their actions, so do same-sex couples who fornicate themselves through man-made concepts and ideas of what marriage is really about.

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I was taught by scriptures in the belief that God holds love, if a couple truly love each other deeply then they are made for each other. In my belief to stop people who love oneanother which is considered "good" is to pervert something God holds very dear. That is the only reason I believe opposing same-sex marriage is wrong in a Godly sense.

You see this is what I genuinally believe and feel. I can of course completely see where your coming from, but I simply disagree, to me scipture point the opposite way.

I'm sure its no surprise to you that I disagree with the rest of your post too. To me God would never be so cruel to create someone gay (something I really would stake my life on I am so convinced of this) and forbid them from ever being intimate with the person they love. I will be getting married before my relationship intensifies shall we say, but in such countries where ignorance bans same sex marriage I believe the couple needs to make a commitment before God as a marriage and he will understand the lack of a proper ceromony. Fortunately more countries are legalising this now, and I believe God is happier every time another does.

HaloHope said:

Bare with me everyone, a lot to reply to here..

Firstly (as have been said by many people here) many people read these verses in a different context.

Levitical law is old covenant and has been revoked in my eyes at least (and I'm not entirely sure those verses are even do condemn homosexuality anyway)

The verses in Romans are about pagan practices.

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The verses in Romans are speaking about homosexual behavior, no matter if it is pagan.

1 an intense feeling of deep affection.
- affection: a feeling of fondness or liking.
- fondness: having an affection or liking for.
- likeness: a regard or fondness for something.

2 a deep romantic or sexual attachment to someone.
3 a great interest and pleasure in something.
4 a person or thing that one loves.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/love?view=uk

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So, Halos Hope, I just want to make sure I am on the same page as you for what our view points are. Please correct me if I am wrong:

Me: Sex is not love

You: Sex=love

(I gave those definitions to show the definition, but I was really using them to lead into another point of mine, and in the end I fully expressed my view that sex and love are different, since in loving someone, you can only produce love, but with sex, it can be either unloving or loving, therefore, sex is not love, but an expression, similar to how giving is an expression and murder is an expression)

WashedBytheSon said:

If we aren't arguing whether or not homosexuality is condemned, then what are we arguing about? I understand that works alone do not save, and I never said that they did. I know that faith saves. However, are we to ignore the commands of God and say "I believe in Christ so even if I willingly live against His laws, I'm saved"? We don't have freedom to do what God's law forbids (Romans 6:1, 15 ; 8:4) because we have grace. We are saved no matter how often we falter because we have grace. That does not mean it is ok to do things that God says is wrong. Paul teaches often that we are to be like Christ. What is Christ like? Well, for one, He is sinless.

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I agree completely, with one change We are not called to be like Christ, but to become like Christ.

This side of death (or the Rapture) we still have our Sin Nature to deal with and we cannot be perfect. Still. we should strive as much as possible, relying on God's grace and on promises like 1 Cor 10:13. There is no excuse not to strive.

There are sins that do not have immediate negative impact, but they are still sins. We are still to try to be holy, and to be like Christ, as I said before. Christ didn't speak out against or contradict the law Our Father laid down, He encouraged following it and rebuked the Pharisees for not upholding it and instead relying on their own traditions. Again, I am not saying we are under the law, but also, that does not mean it is to be ignored.

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The Law exists for two purposes: to teach us virtue and character, and to teach us the need for God's grace.
When we have learned those lessons, we have "graduated." We have learned the virtues that we need to resist the vices, which are our Sin Nature. Paul calls these virtues "the fruit of the Spirit." And we have accepted through God's grace, additional spiritual virtues -- virtues which we cannot learn or earn on our own -- that we need to not just resist, but to overcome the vices. Paul calls these unearned virtues the Armor of God.

When we "graduate," we are no longer under the law, but that does not mean we are free to indulge our vices, our old Sin Nature. It means that we are to obey our higher nature, the new nature growing within us due to the fruit of the Spirit and the Armor of God.

The law is still good and holy, it brought sin and death because no one could live up to it word for word because of the weakness of flesh. The law couldn't save, Christ does. The ceremonial aspect of the Mosaic law has been set aside (Col. 2:14-17). Although believers aren't in bondage to the law anymore, the law still reflects the moral character of God and His will for His creatures. Anyway, the point is, we shouldn't be going directly against what He says is wrong, and our moral code does come from the Old Testament even if we are not enslaved to it.

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What I get out of this paragraph is that you are (again) claiming that Levitius 20:13 is not part of the Holiness Code.

I realize that we are not going to agree on whether Leviticus 20:13 is part of the Holiness Code or part of the moral code. I agree that many things that are associated with homosexual practices are immoral. They are immoral when they are associated with heterosexual practices also. Adultery, fornication, incest and "fertility rites." Also rape, child molestation etc. But these practices are not a part of homosexual love any more than they are a part of heterosexual love.

There is nothing in the Bible that says homosexuality is not condemned.

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Neither is there any evidence that homosexuality is condemned as a moral sin. It is prohibited by the Holiness Code, but the Holiness Code has fulfilled its purpose and is no longer binding.

Marriage is a God-given covenant, and it is to be between a man and a woman. Anything else (homosexuality, fornication, etc) is wrong. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise in scripture, which is essentially what we are talking about.

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There is no evidence in Scripture to support your claim, either. And there are many who do see evidence of the Bible condoning committed same-sex relationships. These people cite David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, Elijah and Elisha, and Jehu and Jehonadab. Personally, I am not certain how much the "queer reading" is not reading more than is there. But it does leave open enough doubt in my mind that I can't say that there is absolutely no acceptance of homosexual relationships.

Dear Halohope,
But my pont is how do we test our feelings and how do we test who is communicating things to us? 1 John 4:1.

I am afraid I shall take God's direct communication to me, and the way I read the Bible over how someone else tells me to do so.

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ok i'll take God's direct communication to me through His Holy Spirit that you are decieved and need prayer because what you say doesn't match His Holy word in the Bible.

brightmorningstar said:

Dear Halohope,
But my pont is how do we test our feelings and how do we test who is communicating things to us? 1 John 4:1.
ok i'll take God's direct communication to me through His Holy Spirit that you are decieved and need prayer because what you say doesn't match His Holy word in the Bible.

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Thats great! I'll do vice-versa. We can both pray for the other!

JohnChapter14 said:

So, Halos Hope, I just want to make sure I am on the same page as you for what our view points are. Please correct me if I am wrong:

Me: Sex is not love

You: Sex=love

(I gave those definitions to show the definition, but I was really using them to lead into another point of mine, and in the end I fully expressed my view that sex and love are different, since in loving someone, you can only produce love, but with sex, it can be either unloving or loving, therefore, sex is not love, but an expression, similar to how giving is an expression and murder is an expression)

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Erm Ive no idea how you reached the conclusion other than mis-reading my post. Sex and Love can be completely seperate entities, yet sex can be an expression of love and a beautiful one at that, between a married couple gay or straight.

WashedBytheSon said:

The verses in Romans are speaking about homosexual behavior, no matter if it is pagan.

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Yup, however the reason it's a sin is because of the pagan acts it is part of, not because of it being homosexual.