Your personal insights on God, etc.

[muichimotsu]

It is self evident. All we can have of anything is a mental concept, including mine.

No, unless you don't believe in object permanence, which is ludicrous: does the tree outside my house cease to exist because I don't think about it or conceive of it or are you essentially boiling things down to hard solipsism, which is utter insanity in the epistemological gymnastics you must do to remotely justify anything as real or reliable?

 

[muichimotsu]

Don't confuse God with the human conception or interpretation of the message. Since ancient times humans have sought meaning and purpose through different methods and techniques. Across time and culture it is really not surprising at all that they may have come up with contradictory "messages".

But if all we have is a concept, how you can simultaneously claim anything objectively exists?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

But if all we have is a concept, how you can simultaneously claim anything objectively exists?

We can infer that our concept of an object correlates with an object in the outside world.

 

[muichimotsu]

We can infer that our concept of an object correlates with an object in the outside world.

Then you're going at best still with solipsism, a mere inference. And this contradicts the notion you strongly implied of idealism rather than realism in terms of epistemology, the former about everything being conceptual, but now you're claiming there are objects that exist, but we cannot be certain about them, so we should just regard them as concepts.

The problem is in wanting absolute certainty and concluding that because we cannot have it, things must remain purely as mental constructs rather than those constructs being descriptive, not prescriptive, in intent

 

[dlamberth]

The problem is in wanting absolute certainty and concluding that because we cannot have it, things must remain purely as mental constructs rather than those constructs being descriptive, not prescriptive, in intent

That's the problem...wanting absolute certainty.

 

[Margaret3110]

Then you're going at best still with solipsism, a mere inference. And this contradicts the notion you strongly implied of idealism rather than realism in terms of epistemology, the former about everything being conceptual, but now you're claiming there are objects that exist, but we cannot be certain about them, so we should just regard them as concepts.

The problem is in wanting absolute certainty and concluding that because we cannot have it, things must remain purely as mental constructs rather than those constructs being descriptive, not prescriptive, in intent

It seems pretty straightforward to me to claim that A) God exists, B) we can't know him as he is in himself in this life. Thus we are left with various imperfect concepts of God.

 

[Tolworth John]

When seeing the Divine as being just as alive and vibrant with in others of other spiritual paths as I see in those who are Christians...I'm not seeing a contradiction in that.

God, or what you call the devine, is not a liar or a deciever. So images, fissions, experiences of God that support contradictory views of God cannot be from God.

If the Hindu view of God as multiple god's is correct then the Christin, Muslim view of God as One is false, as is the Buddhist view.

Face reality. There is a God, one God and there is also a spiritual world with evil spirits seeking to decieve the guliable.
Just who are you seeing?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The problem is in wanting absolute certainty and concluding that because we cannot have it, things must remain purely as mental constructs rather than those constructs being descriptive, not prescriptive, in intent

I think rather the problem is believing that our mental constructs are totally accurate and take them as certain.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

If the Hindu view of God as multiple god's is correct then the Christin, Muslim view of God as One is false, as is the Buddhist view.

Accept that the Hindus believe that all the lesser gods are manifestations of One God.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It seems pretty straightforward to me to claim that A) God exists, B) we can't know him as he is in himself in this life. Thus we are left with various imperfect concepts of God.

Yep.

 

[dlamberth]

God, or what you call the devine, is not a liar or a deciever. So images, fissions, experiences of God that support contradictory views of God cannot be from God.

I look not at images of God, but in how God sits in the Heart of the Lover of God. That's where God becomes a reality for a person. And that's where contradictory views disappear and become One in God.

If the Hindu view of God as multiple god's is correct then the Christin, Muslim view of God as One is false, as is the Buddhist view.

I think there's a difference between "views" of God, and God actually becoming a reality for a person. It's that reality experience of God that I'm looking at.

Face reality. There is a God, one God and there is also a spiritual world with evil spirits seeking to decieve the guliable.
Just who are you seeing?

God in the hearts and souls of humanity.

 

[Tolworth John]

Accept that the Hindus believe that all the lesser gods are manifestations of One God.

Yes and they worship the lesser god's as god's, which is still supporting the case I'm making, that only the true God should be worshipped, that it is not enough to claim to be worshiping him through false images.
Any more than it is acceptable to use counterfeit money.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

that it is not enough to claim to be worshiping him through false images.

I think Hindus would disagree...but I don't know because I am not Hindu.

 

[dlamberth]

Yes and they worship the lesser god's as god's, which is still supporting the case I'm making, that only the true God should be worshipped, that it is not enough to claim to be worshiping him through false images.
Any more than it is acceptable to use counterfeit money.

I think false images is in the eye of the beholder. There are some, the Jewish people for instance, who would say that the Christian images of a trinity God is false. But what matters, I believe, is in how the Divine is brought down to Earth for the benefit of humanity. And God, being infinite, has provided an infinite number of way for that to happen. Some may recoil at that possibility and others like myself just don't know how to limit or bound up the reach of God into His own Creation.

 

[MehGuy]

Just wondering if anybody wanted to share anything you feel you have learned about what God/gods are, what humans are, what this is all about, etc. Hopefully these might be things that you learned through experience that are not biased too much by religious traditions. I hope that makes sense.

I have to say, in some sense I do not think I ever really developed my "spiritual feelings" they just always were. The idea that suffering was divine and made one divine always existed within me. My core spiritualty since I was aged 3 or 4 hasn't really changed when I lost my faith around the age of 18. Even now as an atheist approaching 30, when I get those random unprepared feelings of spiritualty those same spiritual thoughts immediately pop up.

As a kid my parents were shocked about how strangely confident I was about Christianity. My father remarked how I would say as a kid that I knew all there was worth knowing about the faith. I remember attending Sunday school as a kid and having incredible contempt for the peers around me. I begged my parents to let me go to the adult services thinking that was the place where they'd preaching the divinity of suffering only to be disappointed to learn that this wasn't the case. I would then dream about taking over the leadership of the Church and preaching my own idea of the "real" spirituality of Christianity and getting rid of all else.

Probably only met one Christian who seemed to have a similar mindset as me in my life. She thought suffering was intensely beautiful as well, and made one more divine. I regret losing contact with her. Still boggles my mind about how rare this mindset is, at least to the hyper extent my brain processes it. Given the arts and drama, people do find suffering beautiful and spiritual to some extent. Just my genetics are probably at the extreme end of the spectrum.

I guess someone has to be that type of spiritual freak, lol.. and within them they'll spend the rest of the days wondering why others are not like him. Lol.

 

[Tolworth John]

I think false images is in the eye of the beholder. There are some, the Jewish people for instance, who would say that the Christian images of a trinity God is false. But what matters, I believe, is in how the Divine is brought down to Earth for the benefit of humanity. And God, being infinite, has provided an infinite number of way for that to happen. Some may recoil at that possibility and others like myself just don't know how to limit or bound up the reach of God into His own Creation.

The only problem is that I am not aware of any religion that has taught that there are many ways to God.
They have all assumed that there's is the correct way, untill brought into contact with other beliefs.

So to assume that we can adopt a pick and mix of what we like and dislike from different believes is just that an assumption on our part.
One that if used with any religion would be rejected is. Use Islamic worship practises in a Buddhist temple or Hindu ceremony in a quaker meeting.

 

[cloudyday2]

I have to say, in some sense I do not think I ever really developed my "spiritual feelings" they just always were. The idea that suffering was divine and made one divine always existed within me. My core spiritualty since I was aged 3 or 4 hasn't really changed when I lost my faith around the age of 18. Even now as an atheist approaching 30, when I get those random unprepared feelings of spiritualty those same spiritual thoughts immediately pop up.

As a kid my parents were shocked about how strangely confident I was about Christianity. My father remarked how I would say as a kid that I knew all there was worth knowing about the faith. I remember attending Sunday school as a kid and having incredible contempt for the peers around me. I begged my parents to let me go to the adult services thinking that was the place where they'd preaching the divinity of suffering only to be disappointed to learn that this wasn't the case. I would then dream about taking over the leadership of the Church and preaching my own idea of the "real" spirituality of Christianity and getting rid of all else.

Probably only met one Christian who seemed to have a similar mindset as me in my life. She thought suffering was intensely beautiful as well, and made one more divine. I regret losing contact with her. Still boggles my mind about how rare this mindset is, at least to the hyper extent my brain processes it. Given the arts and drama, people do find suffering beautiful and spiritual to some extent. Just my genetics are probably at the extreme end of the spectrum.

I guess someone has to be that type of spiritual freak, lol.. and within them they'll spend the rest of the days wondering why others are not like him. Lol.

What inspires me is suffering for a noble purpose. For example, seeing images of malnourished children doesn't inspire me, but seeing images of malnourished monks does inspire me.

 

[MehGuy]

What inspires me is suffering for a noble purpose.

Fine and all, but I do not know how much spiritualty one can derive from that.

My psychology and the psychology of people who seem to share my spiritual sentiments and feelings, all seem to have brains that easily overload on the sensation of empathy/sympathy. One thing I can report from my childhood is that I was incredibly sensitive towards other's pain. The slightest thing would incredibly move me and often make me feel sick in the stomach.

That's probably the thing that separates me from others. Most people's empathy/sympathy is probably like an electric guitar set on low distortion, while mine and others like me have empathy/sympathy that is set on very high distortion. Something very overwhelming. Something that takes on a new "texture".

The brain tends to trigger a higher sensation of sympathy when one is suffering and cannot help it. Compared to one who brings suffering upon themselves. I was against self harm and asceticism when I was a Christian. Those kinds of sufferings were worthless in my mind. More like cheating. Suffering had to come from the uncaring forces of nature (lol) to really count towards divinity.

 

[cloudyday2]

Fine and all, but I do not know how much spiritualty one can derive from that.

My psychology and the psychology of people who seem to share my spiritual sentiments and feelings, all seem to have brains that easily overload on the sensation of empathy/sympathy. One thing I can report from my childhood is that I was incredibly sensitive towards other's pain. The slightest thing would incredibly move me and often make me feel sick in the stomach.

That's probably the thing that separates me from others. Most people's empathy/sympathy is probably like an electric guitar set on low distortion, while mine and others like me have empathy/sympathy that is set on very high distortion. Something very overwhelming. Something that takes on a new "texture".

The brain tends to trigger a higher sensation of sympathy when one is suffering and cannot help it. Compared to one who brings suffering upon themselves. I was against self harm and asceticism when I was a Christian. Those kinds of sufferings were worthless in my mind. More like cheating. Suffering had to come from the uncaring forces of nature (lol) to really count towards divinity.

So how did the Crucifixion affect you? Did it seem that Jesus inflicted the suffering on himself by being a trouble-maker?

 

[MehGuy]

So how did the Crucifixion affect you? ]Did it seem that Jesus inflicted the suffering on himself by being a trouble-maker?

I found it hard to think about, it made me feel queasy and I would generally avoid such imagery. When the Passion of the Christ came out we viewed the film at church and I was pretty much staring at the ground the whole time, lol.

Did it seem that Jesus inflicted the suffering on himself by being a trouble-maker?

Like most faiths, my faith had some plot holes in it.. lol. Even though as I grew older I tried to tighten up the consistency. If he's in control of everything, it is hard to argue he is not inflicting the pain on himself. I gave him more of a pass than I would some human. Although I valued more the daily hurdles he faced during his 30 some years than his violent end. ​