Young people are leaving the faith. Here's why.

Davidnic

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I have found in Religious Education when I explain to the children the great contributions of Catholics to Science, how the Faith and science are not in conflict...they are interested. Not just interested, but fascinated and thrilled. We do eventually talk about at some point...there is a step of Faith. But they start to see how it is not a constant contradiction and does not need to be.

https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/4...g-people-are-leaving-the-faith-Heres-why.aspx
 

pdudgeon

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i think one of the reasons (other than not being schooled in a Parochial school) is that
the population at large almost expects them to leave, and wonders at the ones who remain.
certainly when they get to college they are challenged by their teachers in all matters spiritual,
and there is pressure to 'give up such nonsense and childish thought.'

we see the challenges in here often enough to be familiar with the thought patterns.
but many of those kids are away from home and the support of their church when they encounter
such thinking, and they're not prepared for it.
 
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RKO

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Catholic fundamentalism is the tendency to believe more literally than the Church teaches. It's as if some people believe that ignorance is rewarded with some special merit badge for "super believers." Evolution springs to Mind.
This sort of thing chased away a LOT of people in my experience.
 
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bill5

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Catholic fundamentalism is the tendency to believe more literally than the Church teaches.
ie not really Catholicism. "Catholic fundamentalism" is practically an oxymoron.

Really few Christian denominations at most are at odds with science, ie one excluding the other (and a favorite anti-theist lie). Science is the "how;" God is the "why" (or if you prefer, the "who"). :)
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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I don't know guys.

I read the article and 50% say the main reason they left was either because the stopped believing in what the Catholic Church teaches or because of the Churches judgmental attitude.

They then spend the rest of the article interviewing kids on math and science vs. the Church. How about we ask about if the judgemental attitude help form this problem ?

...and then the first comment below the article blames Vatican II. So... maybe we've really got a judgemental issue here.

And ......
....if you really want more Catholics to get a Catholic education you have to do two things:

1) Make it available
2) Make it affordable.

(I did some research)

There are half as many Catholic schools and students today as in 1962 and were losing over 100 schools a year.
There are also 20 million more Catholics now then in 1962.

So its not as available as it used to be. And the costs have gone way up, just like all education but social factors hit the Catholic School system kind of hard as far as increased costs.

The truth is, it seems to me, Catholic school system's business model was never really sustainable. They were parish dependent, the diocese and USCCB never really had a financial plan for them and didn't seem to want to get involved beyond shutting them down if they started costing the dioceses money.

And look, let's get real here.....

...putting a Priest (one man) who usually has little to no knowledge in the fields of education, finance or business in absolute control of a 1-4 million dollar a year, 100 employee asset like a school is an invitation to mismanagement, malfeasance and abuse of all kinds (and you know what kinds I mean).

I have direct personal knowledge and experience with the closing of 3 Catholic schools and indirect experience with 2 more and I have stories of all of them that would make you sad to be Catholic.

The sad truth is - we did this to ourselves. It wasn't Vatican II, or the modern secular society, or public schools or the Zombie Apocalypse

We were too stupid, too ignorant, too trusting, too intentionally blind, too dependent of nuns and brothers and, let's face it, too greedy.

and who gets blamed when the whole thing come's down ? The parishes and parishioners.

Yeah.

This is all the Millennials have ever seen. This and the abuse scandals. They rationalize through science but they really just feel used and dirty.

Possible ?

You decide.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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let's look at these more closely then:

— “Because I grew up realized it was a story like Santa or the Easter Bunny.”

— “As I learn more about the world around me and understand things that I once did not, I find that the thought of an all-powerful being to be less and less believable.”

— “Catholic beliefs aren’t based on fact. Everything is hearsay from back before anything could be documented, so nothing can be disproved, but it certainly shouldn’t be taken seriously.”

— “I realized that religion is in complete contradiction with the rational and scientific world, and to continue to subscribe to a religion would be hypocritical.”

— “Need proof of something.”

— “It no longer fits into what I understand of the universe.”
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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If I remember my teenage years, I was very literal, very cynical, show me the evidence kind of attitude.And of course dealing with the distraction of hormones. :)
Maybe it takes a traumatic event, like the death of a loved one, to ask the big questions.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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If I remember my teenage years, I was very literal, very cynical, show me the evidence kind of attitude.And of course dealing with the distraction of hormones. :)
Maybe it takes a traumatic event, like the death of a loved one, to ask the big questions.

I think the pipe dream that this is all "every generation gets a little lax during their rebellious years - they 'll be back as soon as they want to get married, have kids and settle down" is contradicted by the evidence. The oldest Millennials are 35 years old

And they aren't coming back.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Young people don't just think that science and religion conflict, they think that science conflicts with philosophy generally. In fact many of the current pop-sci voices (such as Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Bill the Science Guy) use "philosophy" as a dirty word, and describe it as meaningless and useless. For people like that the idea of a philosophy of science is not a necessary foundation for science, but a contradiction in terms.

This leads to young people saying that things are only true if they are verified by the "scientific method" (which usually remains vague, and when defined never corresponds to what scientists actually do in practice). They often consider the questions along the lines of "why is the scientific method the judge of truth" or "can the scientific method prove that only the scientific method can lead to truth" as meaningless and distractions, rather than as questions that need to be dealt with to justify their beliefs.

But at the same time, most young people are not engaged in science. If they are involved, it is mainly at the lowest undergraduate levels which barely resembles the actual day to day activities of science. Thus they trust only science, while at the same time having only a vague understanding of what science is and does.

We can see this in the article from the OP with statements such as the claim that a Catholic in question would only return to the Church if presented with "replicable, peer reviewed, conclusive proof that a deity exists and I’m guaranteed a happy afterlife.” Why isn't "conclusive" enough proof to get the person to return? Why is it necessary for things to be "replicable" or "peer reviewed." Would they say that Moses should have doubted his many encounters with God, merely because they weren't published in a journal. They are absurd qualifiers in this context, and are only included to sound "science-y".

(That's without getting into the fact that science itself is having a major replicability crisis, and peer review is largely acknowledged to do little to nothing to prevent all but the most obvious fraud or falsehoods from being publish.)

Again, we can see this sort of attitude in this response:

I wasn’t reading anything in particular, but just with school. I always have been very smart, and I was always studious. But as I started to enjoy math and science more, I just realized the discrepancy between religion and science. I guess that was another shaking point. Obviously the two can coexist fairly easily — people do it all the time — but for me, I was one of those more toward the science end of things. Catholicism, especially, did seem to clash fairly well. And then, of course, again, further along the line, that pushed me away from the Church a bit more because of the belief in science that really don’t stack up with religion as far as agreeing with each other.

Note how no specific conflicts are mentioned, and the student also says in passing that the two can coexist because "people do it all the time," i.e. some people believe in both things but its not for him. This isn't phrased in the slightest way as a discussion of a review of the evidence where the evidence for the faith falls short. Instead, it is a matter of personal preference dressed up in scientific terms.

Or again:

Well, I know for evolution there’s that big conflict between the Christian church and science, because parts of the Christian church don’t agree with evolution. But that one I feel like there is a ton of evidence. Evolution, that part, at least, is pretty solid looking to me. But then we learned about the Big Bang theory also in school and, like, that one seemed a little odd to me. I haven’t researched it more in depth, but I don’t know; that one sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

Posters here should generally be aware that there is no conflict between Church dogma and the theory of evolution. However, the student objects that some Christians object to evolution, so there must be some conflict. But it gets worse: the Big Bang is also brought up as a source of conflict, though one in which the respondent supports the Church (i.e. she doesn't think that the Big Bang sounds plausible and so thinks that maybe the Church is right). But the Big Bang theory was created by a Catholic scientist with endorsement of the Pope, and was largely criticized during its creation as a disguised form of creationism! To say that there is no conflict between it and Church dogma isn't going far enough.

My point is that throughout the article when people talk about the conflict between the Church and science they generally aren't aware of what the Church teaches or indeed even what the scientific theories claim. (Incidentally this is consistent with my own experience and what I hear from colleagues in the science faculty). Since they can't even clearly state what the relevant claims are, there is no way that they are empirically tallying up the data for each and saying that one is more likely. Rather, the conflict is more of a conflict between cliques. One is a clique ruled by old guys in black robes who preach at the pulpit, the other is a clique ruled by old guys in white robes who preach at the press conference. But science is trendy now. (Not, of course, actual difficult applications of science, but rather the appearance of science and terms related to it). To use a phrase popular on the internet, young people f***ing love science, but they don't f***ing love the Church.

The good news is that when young people learn the actual history of the Church, or get a grounding in real philosophy, or generally just look into things themselves in an in depth way rather than relying on vague second-hand reports from their teachers and peers they can very easily get excited about all of it, including the teachings of the Church. The bad news is that it is very difficult to get young people to look into things to that level.

It's kind of like posers of any fad: looking like you are in a band is easy and fun; actually learning how to play is hard and unrewarding at the start. Basically the same phenomenon is occurring with science.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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It takes a lot of skill and knowledge on behalf of the catholic education teacher in High School, to deal with questions from students. How many of us can really do it well? (not that I was ever a High School teacher)
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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I have found in Religious Education when I explain to the children the great contributions of Catholics to Science, how the Faith and science are not in conflict...they are interested. Not just interested, but fascinated and thrilled. We do eventually talk about at some point...there is a step of Faith. But they start to see how it is not a constant contradiction and does not need to be.
Proves we need more teachers like yourself in the catholic education system.
 
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Fantine

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Saw a FB ad for a much more comprehensive analysis about why kids leave Church and how to address their questions and get them to come back. There's a book called "Return: How to Draw Your Child Back to the Church."

There's a website and a 16 video-lesson plan (not sure how much it costs--this is FYI).

https://helpthemreturn.com/game-plan

I am sure that the struggle between science and religion is part of it. That's why I am learning to appreciate Teilhard deChardin and Richard Rohr, OFM. I have been learning to the mystery of Christ who has been present since the beginning of time and who lives in every molecule of our ever expanding universe. But my new vision has changed the way I read the Bible, the way I pray, the way I look at God, the world, and other people. This is why I am reading the Spiritual Exercises in the spirit of deChardin.

A quote: "The Eucharist represents an eternally new Christ come alive for us each day at Mass. Each day over the earth, people are bringing to the building of the body of Christ new acts of kindness, compassion, forgiveness, peace, friendship, discovery, and consciousness...All these contributions add to, enhance, and renew the evolving cosmic Christ body in the appearance of bread and wine." (at 8% on Kindle book).

I find that I am much more comfortable with the "eternally new Christ" than I am with the fundamentalist Jesus.

Author's bio:
Louis M. Savary, Ph.D., S.T.D., holds one doctorate in mathematical statistics applied to the social sciences, and another in spirituality and theology. He was a Jesuit for 30 years. He has written and co-authored many books. He introduced the concepts of meditation-with-music cassettes and recorded over 50 of these for Credence Cassettes. He has served as adjunct faculty in spirituality at six different universities. For over 35 years he has taught courses in Teilhardian spirituality and run workshops and study groups on The Divine Milieu.

But I know this is going way too far for most of you (why isn't this thread in TLT, anyway?) If someone's reconciliation of religion and science turns them into a Teilhardian Catholic, most of you will be very disappointed.

I think that person who designed the 16-video website would be very disappointed, too. I think they think that most people will reconcile science and religion and then participate in novenas and chaplets--and they probably won't. They may become more service-oriented, more other-oriented. They may see themselves and others and their place in the world differently.

I really do think it's easier to believe in the "eternal Christ" than the "fundamentalist Jesus," because embracing the mystery is embracing a mystery large and vast enough that I can feel confident of its truth. Embracing fundamentalism is so hard to believe because the vision is so small--like the 12 inch B&W TV I had as a child.

I realize this may be a little too "TLT" for "OBOB." You can move it if you want.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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Young people don't just think that science and religion conflict, they think that science conflicts with philosophy generally. In fact many of the current pop-sci voices (such as Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Bill the Science Guy) use "philosophy" as a dirty word, and describe it as meaningless and useless. For people like that the idea of a philosophy of science is not a necessary foundation for science, but a contradiction in terms.

This leads to young people saying that things are only true if they are verified by the "scientific method" (which usually remains vague, and when defined never corresponds to what scientists actually do in practice). They often consider the questions along the lines of "why is the scientific method the judge of truth" or "can the scientific method prove that only the scientific method can lead to truth" as meaningless and distractions, rather than as questions that need to be dealt with to justify their beliefs.

But at the same time, most young people are not engaged in science. If they are involved, it is mainly at the lowest undergraduate levels which barely resembles the actual day to day activities of science. Thus they trust only science, while at the same time having only a vague understanding of what science is and does.

We can see this in the article from the OP with statements such as the claim that a Catholic in question would only return to the Church if presented with "replicable, peer reviewed, conclusive proof that a deity exists and I’m guaranteed a happy afterlife.” Why isn't "conclusive" enough proof to get the person to return? Why is it necessary for things to be "replicable" or "peer reviewed." Would they say that Moses should have doubted his many encounters with God, merely because they weren't published in a journal. They are absurd qualifiers in this context, and are only included to sound "science-y".

(That's without getting into the fact that science itself is having a major replicability crisis, and peer review is largely acknowledged to do little to nothing to prevent all but the most obvious fraud or falsehoods from being publish.)

Again, we can see this sort of attitude in this response:



Note how no specific conflicts are mentioned, and the student also says in passing that the two can coexist because "people do it all the time," i.e. some people believe in both things but its not for him. This isn't phrased in the slightest way as a discussion of a review of the evidence where the evidence for the faith falls short. Instead, it is a matter of personal preference dressed up in scientific terms.

Or again:



Posters here should generally be aware that there is no conflict between Church dogma and the theory of evolution. However, the student objects that some Christians object to evolution, so there must be some conflict. But it gets worse: the Big Bang is also brought up as a source of conflict, though one in which the respondent supports the Church (i.e. she doesn't think that the Big Bang sounds plausible and so thinks that maybe the Church is right). But the Big Bang theory was created by a Catholic scientist with endorsement of the Pope, and was largely criticized during its creation as a disguised form of creationism! To say that there is no conflict between it and Church dogma isn't going far enough.

My point is that throughout the article when people talk about the conflict between the Church and science they generally aren't aware of what the Church teaches or indeed even what the scientific theories claim. (Incidentally this is consistent with my own experience and what I hear from colleagues in the science faculty). Since they can't even clearly state what the relevant claims are, there is no way that they are empirically tallying up the data for each and saying that one is more likely. Rather, the conflict is more of a conflict between cliques. One is a clique ruled by old guys in black robes who preach at the pulpit, the other is a clique ruled by old guys in white robes who preach at the press conference. But science is trendy now. (Not, of course, actual difficult applications of science, but rather the appearance of science and terms related to it). To use a phrase popular on the internet, young people f***ing love science, but they don't f***ing love the Church.

The good news is that when young people learn the actual history of the Church, or get a grounding in real philosophy, or generally just look into things themselves in an in depth way rather than relying on vague second-hand reports from their teachers and peers they can very easily get excited about all of it, including the teachings of the Church. The bad news is that it is very difficult to get young people to look into things to that level.

It's kind of like posers of any fad: looking like you are in a band is easy and fun; actually learning how to play is hard and unrewarding at the start. Basically the same phenomenon is occurring with science.

There is no way I'm take on the amount of whatever in this post beyond this:

How did Neil and Bill get thrown under the bus ?

I've never heard Nye say anything about religion directly and DeGrasse Tyson is on record stating that before you can dismiss religiosity out of hand on scientific grounds you have to explain the large percentage of scientists the actually practice a religion.
 
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MoonlessNight

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There is no way I'm take on the amount of whatever in this post beyond this:

How did Neil and Bill get thrown under the bus ?

I've never heard Nye say anything about religion directly and DeGrasse Tyson is on record stating that before you can dismiss religiosity out of hand on scientific grounds you have to explain the large percentage of scientists the actually practice a religion.

They got "thrown under the rug" because of videos like this:


Seriously, I would expect a college pot session to have a more coherent and accurate description of philosophy than that. It's clear that he doesn't have a clue what goes on Philosophy. This in and of itself would be fine, if he kept his mouth shut. But no, he made a video about it. (As for Neil, you'll notice that the question is motivated by his opinion on philosophy which is equally as clueless and dismissive.)
 
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Fantine

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On my FB page this morning Bill Nye the Science Guy popped up (I get links from people on all edges of every spectrum, it seems). He happened to be criticizing the religious position on abortion, and as justification he cited the many millions of fertilized eggs that never implant every year. So yeah, he has more anti-religious axes to grind than the feuds he has with the Kentucky creationist.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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Seriously, I would expect a college pot session to have a more coherent and accurate description of philosophy than that. It's clear that he doesn't have a clue what goes on Philosophy. This in and of itself would be fine, if he kept his mouth shut. But no, he made a video about it. (As for Neil, you'll notice that the question is motivated by his opinion on philosophy which is equally as clueless and dismissive.)[/QUOTE]

Moon, I'm sorry but you don't have a firm grasp of what Philosophy is because Nye gave a perfectly good critique of the subject.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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On my FB page this morning Bill Nye the Science Guy popped up (I get links from people on all edges of every spectrum, it seems). He happened to be criticizing the religious position on abortion, and as justification he cited the many millions of fertilized eggs that never implant every year. So yeah, he has more anti-religious axes to grind than the feuds he has with the Kentucky creationist.

I disagree.

He's got a point.

Even Mikey and I have discussed this matter and we're stupid.

We've even taken it a bit further - a high percentage (frighteningly high actually) of IMPLANTED eggs die in utero in the first 5-7 days.

This is one of those facts that makes life beginning at conception hard to deal with and reconcile
 
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MoonlessNight

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Moon, I'm sorry but you don't have a firm grasp of what Philosophy is because Nye gave a perfectly good critique of the subject.

I've went through Plato's most significant dialogues, Aristotle's Organon (and several other works, such as the Rhetoric and the Ethics), Aquinas's Summa, Confuscius's Analects, and many of the works of John Searle and Friedrech Nietzsche. I am currently working through Pascal's Pensees.

Additionally, I have had a less thorough exposure to Marcus Aurelius, Plotinus, Augustine, Mill, Kant, Descartes, Mozi, Lao Tzu, Locke, and Hume. I have had fleeting exposure to many more. I also regularly keep up with the blog of the philosopher Edward Feser and have heard most of the podcasts in the history of philosophy without any gaps. For completeness, I suppose I should note that I don't need explanations to understand most of the jokes in Existential Comics

So I put all of that on one side. On the other we have a video from Bill Nye, who is no authority on Philosophy, in which he rambles about why he is dissastified with it and where he is not able to stick to a clear point or really come up with a good definition of what philosophy actually does.

My options are to either think that Bill Nye knows far more about philosophy than I do, and that all my experience with the works of actual philosophers meant nothing to the question of what philosophy is, or that Bill Nye doesn't know what he is talking about. Somehow it's not hard for me to come to the conclusion that Bill Nye doesn't know what he is talking about.
 
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