Young Earth Creationism

Percivale

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I have a few different comments on the topic. First, I am indebted to YEC publications for much of the scientific reasoning skills and data I've learned and that i used to come to the conclusion that the scientific evidence strongly supports an old earth.

Many say YEC is not science. I'd say that's an exaggeration. It's not pure science, as science is not what makes them believe the earth is young, but YECs do some real science as part of their efforts. I'd say flood geology was a valid hypothesis, but that it has failed to become a theory.

What I see constantly from YECs is false dichotomies between atheism and YEC, as if those were the only two real options, and anything else is just an unsteady compromise between them.
Like 'life can't come about naturalistically, so the earth is 6000 years old.'

'Either the rock layers were laid down by slow gradual processes or in the Genesis flood.' (A look at the theory of plate tectonics makes it clear there must have been large scale floods at multiples times in the past, especially across the central united states where YECs point to the broad area some layers cover.)

I see the situation rather as that YEC and atheism are two extremes, with the truth being in between. Each side totally rejects one set of evidence and puts one on a pedestal, while truth is better found by considering all the evidence and finding an explanation that harmonizes it.

God could have created instantaneously, recently, or whenever, but I believe it would be more to his glory to do it in a way that gives everything in the universe a back story, that makes the universe vast not just in space but also in time, one that gives the most scope to scientific discovery. Wisdom and knowledge are more admirable and excite awe more than brute strength, and that is the difference between simply speaking everything into existence complete, and creating a mechanism by which everything will unfold into that state. The Old Earth position makes God's foreknowledge and wisdom more evident, by showing that He had the intelligence to create a universe with just the right laws to make gases form stars which supernova and form elements from which rocky planets form, and so on.
 

Archie the Preacher

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Percivale, I appreciate your thinking and your explanations. However, starting multiple threads is not going to change anyone's mind.

From what I've read, the YECs are all convinced the YEC belief is required for admission to Heaven, and all of us non-YEC types are either lost or 'poor relations' at best. The only way for a YEC to begin actually 'looking' at the problem is for the Spirit to move them toward it.

As Ken Ham put it, "Nothing will change my mind!" It is their claim to holiness.

I will support you with facts and arguments as you wish. But don't get excited thinking because they are fellow Christians they are willing to study or learn.
 
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Smidlee

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God could have created instantaneously, recently, or whenever, but I believe it would be more to his glory to do it in a way that gives everything in the universe a back story, that makes the universe vast not just in space but also in time, one that gives the most scope to scientific discovery. Wisdom and knowledge are more admirable and excite awe more than brute strength, and that is the difference between simply speaking everything into existence complete, and creating a mechanism by which everything will unfold into that state. The Old Earth position makes God's foreknowledge and wisdom more evident, by showing that He had the intelligence to create a universe with just the right laws to make gases form stars which supernova and form elements from which rocky planets form, and so on.
Why do people believe God is more limited than man? Man is able to speak their universes into creation with a back history without any problems yet for some reason we have trouble with God doing the exact same thing. The heavens is a testimony of the Creator as the Ancient of Days so I would espect Him to create a universe that looked ancient for the get go.

Man is not bound by the laws of his created universes why assume God is bound by the laws of his created universe?
 
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Percivale

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Why do people believe God is more limited than man? Man is able to speak their universes into creation with a back history without any problems yet for some reason we have trouble with God doing the exact same thing. The heavens is a testimony of the Creator as the Ancient of Days so I would espect Him to create a universe that looked ancient for the get go.

Man is not bound by the laws of his created universes why assume God is bound by the laws of his created universe?

So, an imaginary back history is just as good as a real one? Man makes imaginary histories to his works of art because he's not powerful enough to make a real one. But I believe God is powerful enough to make a real one.
 
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Smidlee

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So, an imaginary back history is just as good as a real one? Man makes imaginary histories to his works of art because he's not powerful enough to make a real one. But I believe God is powerful enough to make a real one.

Exactly what is the ultimate reality , The Creator or creation? I don't assume materialism is the ultimate reality.

Also even what man imagines has a huge impact on "reality". God judge the world because their imaginations were on evil continually.

Man universes are "imaginary" because he's not the creator of this universe but part of God's creation. According to scripture God can turn water into wine, walk on water , and raise the dead just as easy as man can in his universe. The man who had great faith was the one who knew all Jesus had to do was the speak and his friend would be healed.

I believe God is able to recreate the earth after He judge it by fire instantly without us having to wait a billion years for it to cool down. Both Genesis and Revelation have creations.
 
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Calminian

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...From what I've read, the YECs are all convinced the YEC belief is required for admission to Heaven, and all of us non-YEC types are either lost or 'poor relations' at best. ....

For the record this is not true, and Archie has been corrected on this many times. All young earth creationist organizations deny what he's said above, from Answers in Genesis, to CMI, to ICR, etc. There is not a credible young earth creation organization out there that believes this. And I don't believe I've met anyone in this forum that holds a yec view that believes this either. It's a silly statement meant to slander people that disagree with Archie.
 
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BobRyan

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Same with Resurrectionism.

And virgin birth-ism

And bodily-ascension-into-heaven-ism.

Not just creationism as God stated it in His Word.

All are historic accounts.

All are doubted as to their historicity by devout atheists.

Nothing changed there.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Calminian

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And virgin birth-ism

And bodily-ascension-into-heaven-ism.

Not just creationism as God stated it in His Word.

All are historic accounts.

All are doubted as to their historicity by devout atheists.

Nothing changed there.

in Christ,

Bob

Yeah, I mean he might as well have said, "I'm a trained scientist. Miracles are completely unscientific."

Since when do we test our faith by naturalistic explanations? If we do it consistently, we end up like Bishop Spong who denies all miracles in the Bible, including the resurrection. It's amazing that the modern church is so unaware of the implications of their own beliefs.
 
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Job8

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From what I've read, the YECs are all convinced the YEC belief is required for admission to Heaven, and all of us non-YEC types are either lost or 'poor relations' at best.
That's quite an exaggeration, with little or no basis in reality or truth. For one who is "Archie the Preacher" that is a definite "No, no".

This subject has nothing to do with admission to Heaven. It has everything to do with trying to accommodate evolutionary theory with Bible revelation.

There is no biblical basis whatsover for assuming that the earth is any older than the creation account. The fact that this account is an integral part of the Ten Commandments seems to escape those who either promote the Gap Theory or the Old Earth Theory. Please notice carefully the inspired words in the Ten Commandments (which were written with "the finger of God"):

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


This corresponds exactly to Gen 1:1-2:3. And since the Ten Commandments are the foundation of all spirituality and morality, it is impossible that there would be any error or omission in those words. Had the earth been created any earlier, the words "for in six day the LORD made heaven and earth" would be misleading. And that is an impossibility when God Himself wrote those words.
 
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BobRyan

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Yeah, I mean he might as well have said, "I'm a trained scientist. Miracles are completely unscientific."

Since when do we test our faith by naturalistic explanations? If we do it consistently, we end up like Bishop Spong who denies all miracles in the Bible, including the resurrection. It's amazing that the modern church is so unaware of the implications of their own beliefs.

Indeed and "IF" God's highest claim in the Bible were something like "And I caused the grass to grow just a tad bit longer last night" what kind of "Christianity would we have " if that was the highest achievement claimed.

Certainly even atheists would "believe" that the grass "grew just a tad big longer last night".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Willtor

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Same with Resurrectionism.

Unlike "Resurrectionism," however, creationist organizations all claim to be doing science.

But am I right in thinking you disagree with them?
 
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Calminian

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Unlike "Resurrectionism," however, creationist organizations all claim to be doing science.

But am I right in thinking you disagree with them?

Neither creationism nor resurrectionism can be pure scientific conclusions. But that doesn't mean you can't glean information from science that can help you understand a supernatural event.

Many point to medical science to understand why blood and water poured from Jesus side. There is actually a medical condition that explains it and this condition confirms Christ died on the cross and wasn't just unconscious. But there is nothing in science to confirm He rose from the dead, and if there was, then it wouldn't be a miracle.

Creation scientist are using science in a very similar way, but would agree with me that the miracle of creation itself cannot be a scientific conclusion.
 
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Willtor

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Neither creationism nor resurrectionism can be pure scientific conclusions. But that doesn't mean you can't glean information from science that can help you understand a supernatural event.

Many point to medical science to understand why blood and water poured from Jesus side. There is actually a medical condition that explains it and this condition confirms Christ died on the cross and wasn't just unconscious. But there is nothing in science to confirm He rose from the dead, and if there was, then it wouldn't be a miracle.

Creation scientist are using science in a very similar way, but would agree with me that the miracle of creation itself cannot be a scientific conclusion.

You believe that the water pouring from his side was miraculous? I always read that as a natural event. If you think it was natural, why bring it up in connection with the resurrection?

Creationism, however, is contrary to science, wholesale. The world looks as though it's got a much longer history than 10,000 years, along with details about that history that are contrary to creationism. If you believe the world is young, you may be right, but science can't possibly back you up on that because it looks like you're wrong.

An important distinction between creationism and the resurrection is that there's no physical evidence one way or the other about the resurrection. Science has no way of talking about it. It's been claimed to have happened, but since it's supernatural, science can't look into the mechanisms by which it might have occurred. It can look for physical evidence, one way or another, but none has ever turned up, nor is it likely to do so. A 10,000 year old earth, on the other hand...
 
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roman2819

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Why insist on a strict number 6000 years old? Why not 16,000 years or 60,000 years?

Personally, I dont think God would rush to create hundreds of thousands of sea and land creatures in two or three days. It is not that He couldn't, but why would He rush?

I don't think the word "day" in Genesis 1 is literal. Instead "day" refers to a stage or phase of creation. And the word "day" fits the prose of Scripture or religious writing, instead of phase or stage.

16,000 or 60,000 years would be a more credible numbers. But for all we know, the earth ccould even be 600,000 years of age. Regarding the age of creation, there is much we don't know, but one thing for sure: I don't believe in evolution that life started by itself and so wonderfully evolve into a million kind of lifeforms that we see today. To try to believe that life on its own, without God, could not have turned out so beautifully is really a too long and unbelievable stretch.
 
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Percivale

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Rejecting YEC is different from rejecting other miracles in the Bible because it is done for a totally different reason. Those who reject other miracles do so because they have a presupposition of naturalism. Those of us who reject YEC do it because of scientific evidence and because we have a presupposition that God created the universe to be orderly and consistent, such that things like its age can be discovered by examination. There is no scientific evidence that the resurrection did not happen. There is scientific evidence that the earth is much older than six thousand years.
 
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Job8

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Creationism, however, is contrary to science, wholesale..
Evolution is in fact more contrary to science than Creationism, even though it pretends to be science.

Science demands verifiable proof and deals with facts based on genuine scientific principles. Evolution simply makes claims without any proof of any kind, relying on "extinction" to cover up their deception. There have also been a number of hoaxes perpetrated by evolutionists to promote their myth: Evolution Fraud and Myths

Evolution is simply an atheistic rejection of Divine creation. Creation (while not described in modern scientific terms) is the basis of science, since God built the laws of the the universe into His creation (e.g. Gen 1:14-18).
 
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Steve Petersen

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Evolution is in fact more contrary to science than Creationism, even though it pretends to be science.

Science demands verifiable proof and deals with facts based on genuine scientific principles. Evolution simply makes claims without any proof of any kind, relying on "extinction" to cover up their deception. There have also been a number of hoaxes perpetrated by evolutionists to promote their myth: Evolution Fraud and Myths

Evolution is simply an atheistic rejection of Divine creation. Creation (while not described in modern scientific terms) is the basis of science, since God built the laws of the the universe into His creation (e.g. Gen 1:14-18).

The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. I would hardly call them atheist. The people clinging to YEC are typically fundamentalist Americans.

Here is a quote from an Anglican Reverend:

'What are the conditions that give rise to the disorder of creationism? It's not just the decadence and insularity of American fundamentalism, with its focus on Biblical inerrancy; although this doesn't help, not all inerrantists are YE creationists. I think it's a combination of fundamentalist culture, a particular personality profile, the politicisation of American religion and the polarisation of its popular culture.' - Richard Bradshaw (Rev) Mental Health Chaplain, Teesside, England. September 2007
 
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