YECs perfect world:

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XTE

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I would like to hear what it is you'd like to see in your perfect world. What concerns would be addressed and what way you feel they would be addressed.

I would like a few things address in standing with this form:

Where would Evolution be taught, if at all?

Would Creation be taught in Science classes?

Would religion have a more promenent role in government and with that: what would you expect religion to do with it?

I know I'm probably asking for a lengthy post from some of you but I would appreciate your response. I'm new here and if anyone feels this has been addressed recently, please redirect if you can.

I will answer in kind if I see the thead even takes a little.

Thank you and God Bless
 
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Poke

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TEBeliever said:
Where would Evolution be taught, if at all?

"That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical" - Thomas Jefferson.

Would Creation be taught in Science classes?

"The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of the creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of His existence." - Thomas Paine.
 
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vossler

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Interesting questions TEBeliever, thanks for asking!
TEBeliever said:
Where would Evolution be taught, if at all?
It would be taught right along side biblical creation as a part of a special class, but not a science class. The scientific evidence would be allowed to be presented, but so would the Bible.
TEBeliever said:
Would Creation be taught in Science classes?
No, but neither would evolution.
TEBeliever said:
Would religion have a more promenent role in government and with that: what would you expect religion to do with it?
I would expect religion, more specifically Jesus Christ, to return to the status He held during our nations founding. I wouldn't expect religion to do anything, but I certainly would expect our leaders to take part in daily prayer.

That was short and to the point. I hope it was what you were looking for.
 
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jereth

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vossler said:
It would be taught right along side biblical creation as a part of a special class, but not a science class. The scientific evidence would be allowed to be presented, but so would the Bible.

So what kind of class would this "special" class be? What would it be called? What would be its point? Why teach evolution at all if you believe it's wrong? You're answer doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by: TEBeliever
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Would Creation be taught in Science classes?

No, but neither would evolution.

So what would they teach in science then? Nothing?!?!?!?? :scratch:
 
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shernren

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This reminds me of a thread long ago and a question to which I haven't seen any satisfactory answers yet:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2141597-would-you-really-teach-creation-science.html&page=2

(post #20)
My question isn't "Should we teach ID in schools?" but "How should we teach ID in schools?" You see, posing the first makes it an extremely academic and ethical question. We start debating about freedom of religion, separation of church and state, the nature of science, etc.etc.etc. and then we end up in a big mess. I was wondering about teaching ID when I encountered one of those "We should have a balanced origin coverage" ideas here at CF. Then I realized that there wouldn't really be very much we could teach under the title of ID except "If we can't explain it now it must have been designed! Err...yeah!" and that very succinctly shows why we should not teach ID : not so much that it is wrong to, but that ID is simply too immature as a "science" to be taught as a science.

... it's very hard to approach the topic objectively when asking should we? But try to ask: how should we? Try constructing an ID curriculum. How long would it last? How much information would there be? And how much of it would actually serve any scientific purpose to a student's future academic progress?

That is a very practical way to see why evolutionists in general think teaching creationism in schools would be a waste of time.
 
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vossler

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jereth said:
So what kind of class would this "special" class be? What would it be called? What would be its point? Why teach evolution at all if you believe it's wrong? You're answer doesn't make a lot of sense.
What is one of the four basic questions that everybody has? Where did I come from? Right? Since everyone has asked that question I don't see why the answer shouldn't be taught in school. If the name of such a class is so important, why not call it origins.
jereth said:
So what would they teach in science then? Nothing?!?!?!?? :scratch:
Wow, you would think from this response that without evolution science doesn't exist.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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vossler said:
Wow, you would think from this response that without evolution science doesn't exist.

What sciences would you not change? It seems that every science conflicts with YEC in one way or another.

How do you determine what is "good" science and what is "bad"?
 
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vossler

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LewisWildermuth said:
What sciences would you not change? It seems that every science conflicts with YEC in one way or another.
I believe chemistry, biology, geology etc., can all be studied without ever mentioning evolution. I've taken college biology and evolution wasn't mentioned.
LewisWildermuth said:
How do you determine what is "good" science and what is "bad"?
I never mentioned good and bad science.:confused:
 
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LewisWildermuth

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vossler said:
I believe chemistry, biology, geology etc., can all be studied without ever mentioning evolution. I've taken college biology and evolution wasn't mentioned.
I never mentioned good and bad science.:confused:

If you do not feel that there is good and bad science then why do you wish evolution to be removed from science?

If you remove evolution, what do you do when geology shows an old earth and no flood?

What about physics and its radiometric dating methods that show old ages?

What about astronomy and it's showing of old ages?

Do you leave these contradictions to YEC in? Why?
 
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vossler

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LewisWildermuth said:
If you do not feel that there is good and bad science then why do you wish evolution to be removed from science?

If you remove evolution, what do you do when geology shows an old earth and no flood?

What about physics and its radiometric dating methods that show old ages?

What about astronomy and it's showing of old ages?
I didn't say that there wasn't good or bad science, just that I didn't mention it.

The vast majority of geology, physics, biology, astronomy etc., have nothing to do with the age of the earth. All are good sciences and worthy of study and all would survive just fine with evolution.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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vossler said:
I didn't say that there wasn't good or bad science, just that I didn't mention it.

The vast majority of geology, physics, biology, astronomy etc., have nothing to do with the age of the earth. All are good sciences and worthy of study and all would survive just fine with evolution.

The vast majority of science is not compatible with YEC.

Do you cut all science that is not compatible with YEC out of modern science classes?

What grade level do these cuts reach to? Grade school only? Undergrad classes? All schools at all levels?

How do you determine what to cut and what not to?

Can biology still study natural selection? The relation of one animal to another? Mutations? Allele shifts?

What exactly would you remove from biology and why?
 
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vossler

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LewisWildermuth said:
The vast majority of science is not compatible with YEC.
I believe otherwise.
LewisWildermuth said:
Do you cut all science that is not compatible with YEC out of modern science classes?
I'd cut all science that isn't empirical and observable.
LewisWildermuth said:
What grade level do these cuts reach to? Grade school only? Undergrad classes? All schools at all levels?
All, once you're studying advanced theories like maybe in High School and College such presentations would become edifying and of use.
LewisWildermuth said:
How do you determine what to cut and what not to?
see above.
LewisWildermuth said:
Can biology still study natural selection? The relation of one animal to another? Mutations? Allele shifts?
I'm no scientist, are all of the above emprical and observable? If so, then they're fair game.
 
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vossler said:
The vast majority of geology, physics, biology, astronomy etc., have nothing to do with the age of the earth. All are good sciences and worthy of study and all would survive just fine with evolution.

Real science is the study of how nature works. Actually, none of it has anything to do with Evolution. When you get to the chapter on Evolution in your college intro-to-Biology text, notice it goes into pleading and story telling -- no longer is the Biology book interested in educating readers about how nature works.

Evolution is a myth about history based on fictional scientific principles.
 
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Willtor

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Poke said:
Real science is the study of how nature works. Actually, none of it has anything to do with Evolution. When you get to the chapter on Evolution in your college intro-to-Biology text, notice it goes into pleading and story telling -- no longer is the Biology book interested in educating readers about how nature works.

Evolution is a myth about history based on fictional scientific principles.

Of course, I can't speak with authority to all fields of science, but I can speak to my own and say that evolution plays a substantial role in some of the sub-disciplines of Computer Science.
 
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XTE

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Poke said:
Real science is the study of how nature works. Actually, none of it has anything to do with Evolution. When you get to the chapter on Evolution in your college intro-to-Biology text, notice it goes into pleading and story telling -- no longer is the Biology book interested in educating readers about how nature works.

Evolution is a myth about history based on fictional scientific principles.

I told ya we were liars to this man. It's gone from audacity Poke to at least have the decency to come forth with what you actually want to say.....full out, no stops!

Do us all a favor and quit tip-toing.
 
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IisJustMe

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steen said:
Ah, so you will NOT cut Evolution. OK, thanks for clarifying.
When was evolution (not natural selection, but actual, cross species evolution) ever observed? How did I miss this earth-shattering news?
 
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XTE

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IisJustMe said:
When was evolution (not natural selection, but actual, cross species evolution) ever observed? How did I miss this earth-shattering news?

I love it when YECs bring up, "when was it observed." The last line of defense.

To answer your question IT TAKES YEARS! Whales and dolphins crossbreed, are they different "kinds?" I guess you have to answer that question. I think it's kinda of funny that they do.

I hate to invoke Godwin's Law but here goes:

There was a time when the KKK had a strangle hold on Indiana. More than half the population at the time, roughtly 300,000. They were completely garnered by the Klan telling them they were a Christian organization and were worried about Black men getting with "their White women." This was a time where women hardly had any say either. Everything was decided for them by White men, who probably didn't have a problem with that. Anyways, they wanted the races to stay with their "kind." It's just another line that's moving, this "kind." It will move and it'll move towards Evolution.

On a side note, I'm so glad I live in modern day times where equality is the big deal and all the races are the same "kind." It took awhile, but we made enough room in our hearts finally to give our heads some breathing room and start thinking a bit.

Also, imagine how barbaric it was in the early 1900's and see how far we've come! Scopes Trial was back then too wasn't it? :)
 
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shernren

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Real science is the study of how nature works. Actually, none of it has anything to do with Evolution. When you get to the chapter on Evolution in your college intro-to-Biology text, notice it goes into pleading and story telling -- no longer is the Biology book interested in educating readers about how nature works.

I'm in the library right now and the Biology text in front of me is "Understanding Biology for Advanced Level", 4th ed., by Glen and Susan Toole. There is one chapter on evolution, chapter 11.

The first topic is population genetics. Everything here is observable and repeatable in the lab, as evidenced by Mendel et al.'s experiments, although probably not over the period of a college course.

The second topic is the Darwin/Wallace formulation of the mechanism of evolution, stated as 7 points: overproduction of offspring, constancy of numbers, struggle for existence, variation among offspring, survival of the fittest by natural selection, like produces like, and formation of new species. Again, all of these are testable and observable though probably not at a college-level investigation.

The third topic is natural selection, explaining types of selection (directional, stabilizing, and disruptive). Applications are resistance to antibiotics in bacteria, resistance to insecticides in insect pests, resistance to myxomatosis in rabbits, and heavy metal tolerance in plants. Again, observed though not testable at college level.

The fourth topic is artificial selection. Ditto.

The fifth topic is isolation mechanisms, allopatric and sympatric speciation. Ditto.

Over the weekend when I go back I'll check out my uni-level Biology textbook and see if your accusations stick up there.

My question is: what does creationism have to offer in competition? How would you teach a class on creationism, what would you teach them, what experiments would you perform, and what good would this knowledge do them in future academic learning? I agree that the question "Where do we come from?" is very important, but the valid question to ask in a science class is "Where does science say we came from?" and there the only viable scientific theory is evolution. If one wishes to explore the metaphysical implications of evolution or supernaturalist objections to it, by all means! But not in a science class where people might mistake it for science.

By the way, notice what all this "pleading and story-telling" has in common: testable experiments which can only be performed often at a Masters or PhD level (AFAIK) of research. This suggests to me what "empirical and observable science" really is: "if I can understand it, it's empirical and observable; if I can't, it's not."
 
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