Would you lie to save the life of one human being?

[Crazy Liz]

I seriously think that we are looking at it from the wrong point of view.
What happened to trusting God in all things?
What happened to accepting his outcomes?

Has anyone here read the story of Corrie Ten Boom?
The situation above was not that uncommon in the second world war.

If I remember the story correctly, Corrie would hide Jews seeking refuge within her house. On one occassion the Nazi's raided the house, didn't find anyone and demanded to be told where they were hiding. In this instance they were hiding under the table.
So lie and save a life?
Tell the truth and trust God?

She told the Nazi's that they were under the table, Nazi's refused to believe her and stormed out.

It's a hard thing. Personally I would probably trust in myself and tell the lie - it is not something I aspire to, nor something that I would seek to justify.

I would lie to save a life. Rahab and the Hebrew midwives and a few others in the OT were praised for this.

Do I admire Corrie ten Boom? Of course I do. I also praise God for protecting the Jews who came under her protection when she betrayed them. Her heart was in the right place.

Do I justify the lie, well, no. Sometimes there is no righteous choice available. At those times we take responsible action and trust God to justify the sinner, not the sin.

 

[(Omega)]

Hi there oworm!

You can quote all the verses you want to my friend, but prove yourself unto me and substantiate with those scriptures how I was invloved. Hmm.. lets see I responded as gently as possible and here comes someone who can quote but cannot prove how I was a wrathful and disdainful person according to you. I look at myself in the mirror and see one who is saved By the Blood of Christ and not by works. I do works and obey His commandments out of my love for Him and not that I try to obtain salvation.

I Merely pointed out the fruits of the SPIRIT, now show me with the scriptures you had posted and respond in like manner the Wrath I supposedly displayed according to Provberbs 15:1? And show me how it was wrong pointing out to scriptures, there you have judged me, don't lean on your own understanding my friend or be wisd in your own sight. Pride is a spirit that binds people from refusing correction.

And no we go to PR 15:2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge,

but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.

Explain instead of just quoting scriptures where Have I displayed folly?
I can say same to you but unfortunately I'm not as RIGHTEOUS as you are, i let The lord deal with that and not put confidence in man who considers me a fool, but thanks for calling me a fool in your prideful attitude that will one day be abased.

PR 12:18 Reckless words pierce like a sword,

but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Once again I responded with the best of my ability and please show me the words that were so disdainful.

Now before you get on your high horse and prepare yourself for a counter offensive stop and think ! Could this be Godly advice? Is it just a little possible that maybe you are here to learn how to interact with people in a reasoned and respectfull manner?
Oh and by the way, everything i have said i say as much to myself as any who read this. Im only ever an utterance away from using my tongue to swell my pride,boast ,or cut some poor soul to shreds in my zeal for "truth".

Your quite the character aren't you. Let me clarify this so you can understand me clearer instead of just quoting scriptures. I am a man who deserves to be condemned and never ever once said that I was better, I merely voiced my point of view that Is correct, but you came in as JUDGE and jury and quoted scriptures that proved nada! then you put words in my mouth. Every single person on this forum deserves to be condemned, so what High Horse? nice try! I have looked at myself in the mirror and thank God every day I'm alive because of His Mercy and Grace that saved this wretched sinner, now go and look in the mirror yourself and tell me what you see? HONESTLY!

1 Corinthians 3:18 - Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

And commend knowledge, I see deception and one who is easily deceived. I unlike you who are the one who is judgmental. I will pray for you my friend so that your light will SHINE SO BRIGHTLY that God may be glorifed. Take Care my friend!

God Bless!

Only For The Glory of Christ!

 

[Crazy Liz]

Do you know that when presented with a "temptation to sin", that God has given us a "way out"?

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I used to interpret that scripture that way, too. I still think it's a good thing to teach children. But as an adult who has lived in the world, I know that every time we are faced with a choice between evils there is not always an innocent alternative available. And occasionally there is, but we are unable to see it until it is too late. And sometimes we realize too late that the temptation was an apparently innocent choice we made in the past that has put us now in the position of no non-sinful choices available.

I don't think of every time we face the opportunity to sin it is necessarily a temptation.

Like I said before, though, God justifies the sinner, not the sin.

 

[(Omega)]

One cannot know what they will do until they do it. This being said, we are only answering this poll with what we hope we would do in that situation.

I see people judging which would be the better decision... Is it not the place of Jesus to judge that?
...and that too?
You seem to contradict yourself here. Did you not just condemn Dad Ernie for opposing your beliefs? It seems to me that you posted this thread for just that purpose: to condemn any who disagree with you. Just my thoughts, take care my friend. Grace and peace to you.

In Christ,
Joshua Synon

Thanks Joshua! Your absolutely right on that one an I apologize to Dad Ernie for saying that and I made a mistake there, thanks for the prayer my Brother in Christ!

God Bless!

 

[(Omega)]

Just for the record Omega, I have no problem understanding or forgiving you. I, myself, have been ungodly more times than I can remember on this MB. And, by the grace of God, I've been fortunate enough to have people who were willing to point it out to me, as I did for you. If you feel insulted that was not my intention. If you feel guilty, well, good. You should. We should all feel guilty when we do something wrong. Guilt is our friend. It's one of the wonderful ways in which God reveals to us that we have erred.

God bless

Your right my friend we all make mistakes, all we can do as for now as members in the body of Christ is to try and help each other out and pray for each other
I Truly Apologize Reformationist if I came out too strong or started out on the wrong foot with you. Thanks for responding politely my Brother in Christ!

God Bless!

 

[Rho]

Exodus 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah, and the other Puah, 1:16 "When you assist the Hebrew women in childbirth, observe at the delivery: if it is a boy, kill him, but if it is a girl, then she may live." 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and they did not do what the king of Egypt had told them; they let the boys live.

1:18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, "Why have you done this, and let the boys live?" 1:19 And the midwives replied to Pharaoh, "Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women--for the Hebrew women are vigorous; they give birth before the midwives come to them!" 1:20 So God treated the midwives well, and the people multiplied and became exceedingly strong. 1:21 And because the midwives feared God, he made households for them.

The other take is that lying to prevent evil and which has no selfish gain is ok - motivation would also play a big part.
Thoughts?

Then we always have Romans where 'For if by my lie the truth of God enhances his glory, why am I still actually being judged as a sinner?' And why not say, "Let us do evil so that good may come of it?"'
Which leads us to situational ethics - ends justify the means - kill 1 person to save 20?

Rho.

 

[Jedi]

Hmm.. lets see I responded as gently as possible and here comes someone who can quote but cannot prove how I was a wrathful and disdainful person according to you.

As a simple passer-by, even I can tell that you have most certainly not been gentle in your responses. You have been immature, judgmental, and have practically placed your hands over your ears in refusing to genuinely listen to what others have to say. Instead, you condemn them. You, my friend, are the Pharisee.

I can say same to you but unfortunately I'm not as RIGHTEOUS as you are

This is pitiful. You might as well say, “I’m a million times as humble as thou art!”

Your[sic] quite the character aren't you.

You make condescending comments like these and you wonder why people are ticked off at you? Surely you cannot be so willfully ignorant.

…never ever once said that I was better

Not explicitly, but your tone with people here has clearly conveyed such self-righteousness in yourself. Pharisees generally don’t go around saying explicitly “I’m better than them.” You can tell their attitudes by the other things they say and the judgments they so readily dish out to others.

I unlike you who are the one who is judgmental.

You sure do like to point the finger, don’t you? Haha, can you not hear the hypocrisy in your words: “I’m not judgmental! You’re judgmental!”

How old are you anyway? 12? 13? You should not be so quick to speak as to listen. Who knows – you might actually learn that you’re wrong on certain topics. This attitude is called “humility.” I suggest you adopt such a virtue.

Here’s one of the more interesting quotes from you from the first page:

“Dad Ernie I guess will be joining to crew in the Lake of Fire since he has no mercy neither does He understand that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Time to learn some Mercy don't you think so earnie?”

You are rash, imprudent, you speak where you are ignorant, and demonstrate great hypocrisy. And you try to play innocent later in wondering where you’ve said something wrathful… you have so much to learn.

 

[(Omega)]

Your only here to gain blessings, this forum is filled with kids who are filled with arrogance and pride, i'm outta here!

 

[(Omega)]

12 or 13 years old? nice try, your only saying that to sound mature but in reality your hiding your true essence and I can discern it, when you realize it here and other people here on this forum who ar only out to glorify themselves and not God, then maybe perhaps things will get better. I spoke clearly and plainly but was rejected by sarcastic and arrogant kids like yourself, who are only trying to win praises from men. Admit it, and stop being cocky!

I came here to find unity amongst believers but have found only a few who are truly humble among this board and only a few bear True fruits of the Spirit!

God Bless and Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall, in due time when you wise up you will relaize it!

Take Care!

 

[In Christ Forever]

Omega said:

Your only here to gain blessings, this forum is filled with kids who are filled with arrogance and pride, i'm outta here!

I look at myself in the mirror and see one who is saved By the Blood of Christ and not by works. I do works and obey His commandments out of my love for Him and not that I try to obtain salvation.

I spoke clearly and plainly but was rejected by sarcastic and arrogant kids like yourself, who are only trying to win praises from men. Admit it, and stop being cocky!

I came here to find unity amongst believers but have found only a few who are truly humble among this board and only a few bear True fruits of the Spirit!

Yep, he was looking in a mirror alright, a full length one at that. Who was that guy

1 corin 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[katherine2001]

Crazy Liz, I agree with you. If you vote in the Presidential election in the US this year, you will have to vote for a party that supports killing others in some way. None of the parties are pro-life across the board. One is pro-abortion, but tend to be against the death penalty and war. The other party is against abortion but tends to be strongly pro-death penalty and pro war. Either party you vote for supports killing people in one way or another, which, of course, goes against the 10 Commandments, not to mention the teachings of the New Testament that we are not to return evil for evil but do good back to the person instead. The only innocent alternative is not to vote in the Presidential race, I guess (which I am probably going to do).

 

[Jedi]

12 or 13 years old? nice try…

It’s interesting how you didn’t answer the question. Or would you have to lie in order to make yourself sound more credible?

your[sic] only saying that to sound mature but in reality your hiding your true essence

And what is my “true essence?” I’m very curious. Go ahead – give me the conclusion of your judgment and tell me what my true essence is, since you obviously know me so very well from our extensive encounters here.

and I can discern it, when you realize it here and other people here on this forum who ar[sic] only out to glorify themselves and not God, then maybe perhaps things will get better.

It seems you are among this number and others here have pointed it out to you. What will it take to get you to actually reevaluate yourself?

I spoke clearly and plainly but was rejected by sarcastic and arrogant kids like yourself, who are only trying to win praises from men. Admit it, and stop being cocky!

Haha, “kids?” Einstein, if you looked at my age, I’m 21, and given the amount of intellectual value you’ve presented in your posts, I don’t feel obligated to believe you are significantly younger. I don’t have to work to win the approval of men – it comes naturally to me. There are times when I put aside the approval of men to knock a few people off their high horses, such as you. You spit venom left and right and as soon as someone points it out to you, you spit even more venom at them. How childish.

I came here to find unity amongst believers but have found only a few who are truly humble among this board and only a few bear True fruits of the Spirit!

You have shown no humility in your replies, only hypocrisy. You have looked down upon and condemn others, yet you claim to want unity? Your claims are contrary to your judgments and condemnation of others, even within this very topic. Interesting how you keep ignoring this fact.

God Bless and Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall, in due time when you wise up you will relaize[sic] it!

Knocking someone off his high horse is not an example of “pride,” but justice. Thanks for the straw man, though.

Further, I'm going to play the devil's advocate against your position. Have you ever studied moral philosophy? As a theology major & philosophy minor, I've had the opportunity to discuss this subject relentlessly in the past. You seem to be stuck using the faulty Utilitarian reasoning (the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people) in order to justify lying, that is, you claim that the saving of a human life outweighs the means in which you did it (lying). However, morality is not concerned with simple cause & effect, but also the means to that effect. Let me explain.

Suppose I'm driving down the road and there's an old granny crossing the street. I don't see her in time and try to swerve out of the way to not hit her, but alas, I'm too late and I hit her anyway. The old granny dies. Now suppose that I'm driving down that same road, only this time I see the old granny. I then step on the gas and swerve in order to hit her. I succeed and the old granny dies. In both instances, the old granny is dead, so I am physically responsible for her death. Yet in which situation am I morally responsible for her death? Utilitarian moral philosophy would say they are the same, since the outcome is the same. However, we all know that just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I would be morally responsible for her death if I tried to hit her rather than had I tried to not hit her. This is all to say that the means, not just the end, matters. In fact, I would go so far to say that the means is even more important than the end. Your philosophy would have us think backwards.

Further, you have stopped trusting that God is in control when you think you must sin in order to make things turn out right. How can God possibly condemn you for being a moral person (e.g. not lying, stealing, etc), even if it came at a great price? Isn't this what Christianity is all about? God could ask you, "Why did you let this person die?" You could simply respond, "Because the only way I could save them is lie, and you told me not to lie." You are justified in this instance. However, suppose we turn the tables around. God could ask you, "Why did you lie?" You could then respond, "Because I wanted to save this person." Then God could say, "The person's life was in no danger at all - I was with them. You lied when I told you not to because you didn't trust that I could take care of the situation." In this instance, you are morally condemned. It is just like Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God to pursue something they perceived as "good."

Finally, we are to be like God, are we not? To follow His example and try our best to "be pefect as our Father is perfect?" If this is so, then we cannot lie, for it is written: "it is impossible for God to lie" (Hebrews 6:18). This would not be so if lying were morally praiseworthy in some situations. If we are to be imitators of God, let us be like God so that it is impossible for us to lie.

 

[Rho]

Crazy Liz, I agree with you. If you vote in the Presidential election in the US this year, you will have to vote for a party that supports killing others in some way. None of the parties are pro-life across the board. One is pro-abortion, but tend to be against the death penalty and war. The other party is against abortion but tends to be strongly pro-death penalty and pro war. Either party you vote for supports killing people in one way or another, which, of course, goes against the 10 Commandments, not to mention the teachings of the New Testament that we are not to return evil for evil but do good back to the person instead. The only innocent alternative is not to vote in the Presidential race, I guess (which I am probably going to do).

In Aus we also have our elections coming up, and we were discussing the same issue. Voting here is compulsory. So how to make a decision? One of the ideas put forward was that you go with the candidate who is most capable of making moral decisions - based on the premise that they are most open to the spirits leading. Scriptural - not sure - maybe we should get out the Urrim and Thummim.

Rho.

 

[billwald]

Gos misquoted Sarah to Abraham for the sake of peace in the family.

 

[alaskamolly]

Have to quote this before I post...

Finally, we are to be like God, are we not? To follow His example and try our best to "be pefect as our Father is perfect?" If this is so, then we cannot lie, for it is written: "it is impossible for God to lie" (Hebrews 6:18). This would not be so if lying were morally praiseworthy in some situations. If we are to be imitators of God, let us be like God so that it is impossible for us to lie.

Well, I gotta disagree with you there.

God doesn't tell the truth to the enemy. You said we were to be like God...well...




God knowingly and purposefully decieves people and blinds eyes from seeing truth. God sends lying spirits.
God blesses those who decieve the enemy.



All these things can be found in Scripture, and yet so can the words, "God is not a liar."


Seems confusing, unless we make an important distinction. I think the question we need to ask is, "God is not a liar TO WHOM?"




We know that God does not lie to His children.




We do know that God decieves the enemy, and decieves those who are not His own.





So, in aswer to the original question that started this thread, it would simply depend on WHO was wanting a lie out of me, and for what reason.



If it was the Gestapo wanting to know where I hid the Jews, then I would most certainly come up with a creative answer (just like Rahab did to the soldiers, and was BLESSED for it; and just like the Hebrew midwives decieved Pharoah, and were BLESSED for it).



The enemy does not deserve the truth. He is the enemy. We don't hand him the battle plans just because he asks for them.



This is NOT 'situational ethics.' This is what the God of the Bible did (and does), and what He blessed His people for doing.





My 2 Cents,
Moll

 

[Crazy Liz]

Gos misquoted Sarah to Abraham for the sake of peace in the family.

Could you please post the specifics?

Thanks.

 

[NewToLife]

The answer to the question really depends on what lie you'd have to tell and to whom, I'd happily lie to my friend about what I had for lunch for instance but I might think twice about other more serious lies.

 

[Jedi]

God knowingly and purposefully decieves people and blinds eyes from seeing truth.

This is not the God of the Bible. You’re accusing God of hypocrisy, being the source of evil and the cause of confusion & deception. If this is the God you follow, how in the world can you follow Him? He is not truly good.

God sends lying spirits.

God blesses those who decieve the enemy.

You’re confusing the situations where these things are described. God merely allows lying spirits to do their work when certain people turn from Him (i.e. He removes His shielding hand from them). It’s just like saying God sent Satan to test Job, which is true only in a very superficial sense. In technicality, He only allowed it.

Further, God’s blessing on people who sin is not the same as His condoning their sin. God may bless the “what,” but not the “how.” In the case of Rahab, however, not even this need be the case. Rahab is praised for her faith in God (Hebrews 11:31), while James 2:25 praises her for lodging and then sending off spies in a different direction from those seeking them. But approval of Rahab in these areas does not mean that she enjoyed God's approval in every area of her life. The areas of Rahab's faith must be strictly observed. She won recognition by biblical writers because she trusted in the God of Israel more than she trusted her own king of Jericho.


Romans 3:8 warns us not to say, "Let us do evil that good may result." That's exactly what you're preaching here.

All these things can be found in Scripture, and yet so can the words, "God is not a liar."

Actually, I quoted a passage earlier telling us that “It is impossible for God to lie.” This is a statement of principle, not a conditional statement as you suggest. It does not say, “It is impossible for God to lie some times.” Why in the world would you follow a lying God? He could very well be lying to you.

We do know that God decieves the enemy, and decieves those who are not His own.

Again, this is a mistaken understanding of the text. God allows people to be deceived when they turn from Him, He does not do this to them personally.

If it was the Gestapo wanting to know where I hid the Jews, then I would most certainly come up with a creative answer (just like Rahab did to the soldiers, and was BLESSED for it; and just like the Hebrew midwives decieved Pharoah, and were BLESSED for it).

Again, there is a difference between the “what” (saving someone) and the “how” (lying). You can bless one and condemn the other. It’s not that complicated.

The enemy does not deserve the truth. He is the enemy. We don't hand him the battle plans just because he asks for them.

This is a terrible mindset to have. Your fellow man is not your enemy, but a fellow creation of God in need. How can you rejoice when the truth of God is hidden from them? Do you think that if they knew the truth, God’s plans would somehow be foiled – that He couldn’t take care of things if they knew what’s going on? Romans 5:10 tells us that we all were once enemies of God - According to you, He should have just lied to us about the truth of God so we "wouldn't see the battle plans." You end up shooting yourself in the foot.

I do not follow a lying God. To claim you do is to follow a hypocrite, a God who is the source of evil. God, then, is not perfect, and Jesus was wrong in telling us to “be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.”

 

[Dad Ernie]

Crazy Liz, I agree with you. If you vote in the Presidential election in the US this year, you will have to vote for a party that supports killing others in some way. None of the parties are pro-life across the board. One is pro-abortion, but tend to be against the death penalty and war. The other party is against abortion but tends to be strongly pro-death penalty and pro war. Either party you vote for supports killing people in one way or another, which, of course, goes against the 10 Commandments, not to mention the teachings of the New Testament that we are not to return evil for evil but do good back to the person instead. The only innocent alternative is not to vote in the Presidential race, I guess (which I am probably going to do).

I find this kind of mindset very upsetting. It is unscriptural and quite literally UNTRUE.

First of all killing in a time of war is NOT "murder". Nor is it murder to take the life of a person (e.g. capitol punishment) when he/she murders another individual. If you understood what the NT says about the government having the authority to wield the sword, then perhaps you might change your mind.

Secondly and I quote: "Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute." This is MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE of innocent lives. WAKE UP PEOPLE! Since the war began in Iraq about 1,000 U.S. servicemen have been killed attempting to thwart the terrorism that is so rampant there. So many have commented about the Bush administration killing innocent babies there. How ludicrous! If even 10,000 children and babies were killed in Iraq, how does that compare with the MURDER of almost one and a half million babies in the U.S. each year?

We haven't even touched on the Homosexual Agenda. This is a PET thing with the democrats and it is one of the things that will bring the U.S. down to its knees completely.

So if someone doesn't vote Republican on the basis of just these two things, I think you have your wires crossed and your priorities are OUT OF WHACK.

We need to get more Supreme Court Judges that are conservative and the only way to do that is to keep Republicans in office. If you don't vote, you are helping the Democrats support MURDER and the HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA.

Your Servant in Christ,

Dad Ernie

 

[The_White]

Jesus is saying that A Human Life is worth more to God than if a commandment such as the Sabbath were to be Broken, the Sabbath is clearly one of the Ten Commandments and it was Broken by Jesus Himself!

Actually, doing nothing on the Sabbath is not one of the 10. Keep the Sabbath Holy is. So no, Jesus never did break a commandment (In the eyes of the Pharasees though you are right)

Anyway, I would consider allowing someone to die for the sake of not lying to be akin to murder so yes, I would rather lie than let someone die

OK ignore that, it was WAY out of date and I KNOW that my comp wasnt displaying beyond the first page. Sorry all.