Wormhole Theology (wormholus Doctrinus) - How does it relate to our salvation?

Brother Chris

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Think about like this, we have shown, over the last 100 years, time to be relative, so God way off in human future has recorded all the free will choices man “made”. The God of our future then sends (through some wormhole type system) that information back to himself at the beginning of our time, so the God at the beginning of our time has all the information on what “did” happen in our future in a “book”. The God of our future is also the same God of our past.

Can anyone explain this new doctrine that I've been reading about on other threads?
Wormhole Theology (Wormholus Doctrinus)





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Let's have fun with this thread!
 
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Hammster

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Think about like this, we have shown, over the last 100 years, time to be relative, so God way off in human future has recorded all the free will choices man “made”. The God of our future then sends (through some wormhole type system) that information back to himself at the beginning of our time, so the God at the beginning of our time has all the information on what “did” happen in our future in a “book”. The God of our future is also the same God of our past.

Can anyone explain this new doctrine that I've been reading about on other threads?
Wormhole Theology (Wormholus Doctrinus)





^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^
Let's have fun with this thread!

I think Captain Sisko was a proponent.
 
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Clare73

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Think about like this, we have shown, over the last 100 years, time to be relative, so God way off in human future has recorded all the free will choices man “made”. The God of our future then sends (through some wormhole type system) that information back to himself at the beginning of our time, so the God at the beginning of our time has all the information on what “did” happen in our future in a “book”. The God of our future is also the same God of our past.

Can anyone explain this new doctrine that I've been reading about on other threads?
Wormhole Theology (Wormholus Doctrinus)
Sounds like it came from a wormhole.

Make that Wormholum Doctrinus.
 
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bling

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Bling, do you still believe in the wormhole doctrine?

First off: We do not know if wormholes even exist, but we do know over the last 100 years Einstein’s “Theory of Relativity” has not been disproven after many attempts and there have been lots of experiments that support it.

I never called my ideas a “Wormhole Theology”, but only used the concept of a wormhole type system to explain: “How God could know our future perfectly and yet allow us to make truly free will choices.”

The God at the beginning of time knows all man’s free will choices that man will make down through time, but this is done by the God of the future (who is also the God at the beginning) sending at least information about all man’s choices throughout time back to Himself at the beginning of time.

God at the beginning of time know what each of us “did” throughout our life the same as you can know the history of a past individual, but not be able to change what that person did in the past.

This also explains: “Why did God just not make a person that He knows will go to hell?” The reason is simple: “If God is not ever going to make a person He would not know what that person would do other than He would know all the options that person could chose to do.” At the “moment” God decides to create a person that person has lived in our future and God knows what he has chosen to do, so there is already history created (it is future history for humans) and it is not possible to change history. God could loop back and continue again from an earlier point, but the “history” would also include the loop.

Bottom line is: you do not have to have faith in some unproven theory of wormholes, but it could explain how a God outside of time could operate.
 
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Brother Chris

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First off: We do not know if wormholes even exist, but we do know over the last 100 years Einstein’s “Theory of Relativity” has not been disproven after many attempts and there have been lots of experiments that support it.

I never called my ideas a “Wormhole Theology”, but only used the concept of a wormhole type system to explain: “How God could know our future perfectly and yet allow us to make truly free will choices.”

The God at the beginning of time knows all man’s free will choices that man will make down through time, but this is done by the God of the future (who is also the God at the beginning) sending at least information about all man’s choices throughout time back to Himself at the beginning of time.

God at the beginning of time know what each of us “did” throughout our life the same as you can know the history of a past individual, but not be able to change what that person did in the past.


This also explains: “Why did God just not make a person that He knows will go to hell?” The reason is simple: “If God is not ever going to make a person He would not know what that person would do other than He would know all the options that person could chose to do.” At the “moment” God decides to create a person that person has lived in our future and God knows what he has chosen to do, so there is already history created (it is future history for humans) and it is not possible to change history. God could loop back and continue again from an earlier point, but the “history” would also include the loop.

Bottom line is: you do not have to have faith in some unproven theory of wormholes, but it could explain how a God outside of time could operate.

Bling, do you know how silly this sounds? You can't be serious.
 
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Gottservant

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The difficulty comes when you try to decide who someone will worship on the basis of the wormhole alone, the God of the future or the God of the past.

Basically you get a whole lot of possibility and only one way to work out how much is falsified, ie. continue to the future, with as much of the past as makes sense to remember.

When it becomes clear that some people are committed to what is falsified for the wrong reasons, then you get Hell (which on the basis of the fact that proceeding to the future was already wise, means a) people are satisfied with Hell b) people stay there c) they realise too late that it really is Hell)

Whether this means God didn't do enough, is up to the people who get there, but of course, once you get to Hell, God's hands are tied - because to get there you have already admitted God couldn't do any better, which in turn means you knew that was where you were going to end up.
 
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hedrick

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The problem with the doctrine as explained in the OP is that it makes a particular combination of assumptions about God that seems odd.

I think the most natural assumption is that God is outside time. If he created the universe, then he created space-time. It’s hard to see how he could do that if he were bound by time himself. Indeed as far as I know, our timeline doesn’t exist outside our space-time continuum so until he created the universe, our timeline wouldn’t even have existed (speaking somewhat imprecisely, since we don’t know whether “until” would even apply in that situation).

But the wormhole only makes sense if God doesn’t know what is future. That means he’s limited to a specific point in the timeline. That seems inconsistent with the doctrine of God as creator.

But forgetting this issue, it still seems odd. God is normally assumed to be outside the physical universe. Even if he is somehow limited by time (which open theism seems to imply), it would seem weird that he’d have to use a physical mechanism like a wormhole to send messages to himself.
 
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Marvin Knox

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“Do I not fill the heavens and the earth? declares the Lord." Jeremiah 23:24

According to what He has told us, God exists on both sides of the wormhole and in the wormhole.

He is everywhere present at all times and without division.

He knows and always has known everything past, present, future, real and possible.

The idea of a God far off who observes things happening in His creation while He listens and peeks through a wormhole is quite clearly a position coming from Biblical illiteracy.

The "wormhole" idea makes for a unique way of discussing exactly the concepts apparently believed by the majority of Christians.

Namely that God does not create and inhabit all things. According to popular theology (including evangelical theology) - He is not in complete control of every single thing that has happened, is happening, or ever will happen in His creation .

Apparently the majority believe that we do not live and move and have our being in Him.

The Lord told us that the time would come when men would not endure sound doctrine but would be drawn aside by fables and talk of wormholes.
 
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Epiphoskei

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Sounds like middle knowledge trying to not go full blown open-theist and simultaneously avoid the pseudo-determination that makes Molinism useless as a freewill theodicy.

The proposition that God knows the future is problematic for some libertarians who believe that if God knows you will do X it precludes the possibility of doing !X which makes X non-libertarian free.

The Molinists retort that God knows the future by knowing all possible futures of all possible actions a free agent can take.

The problem arises that if God possesses the knowledge of all possible contingent universes prior to choosing to creating one specific universe, he still basically determined everything in the universe. Consider: let's compare two hypothetical ways of creating the universe. One is our universe exactly as it was created, and another is an exact duplicate, except God left out a stray hydrogen atom somewhere in the deep recesses of the Triangulum Galaxy. These are different existences, therefore free will, random chance, and dumb luck should (in a libertarian worldview) cause different people to be saved (inasmuch as we cannot say that our choices are in any way determined by our material circumstances, which are, after all, identical to a distance of 2.5 million light years). If, again, by free will and dumb luck it happens that exactly everyone in these two contingent realities will be saved but for one man, let's call him Steve, who would be saved in the variant universe, is not saved in ours, and that is the only meaningful distinction between the two, then God still basically predestined Steve unto damnation in a basically Calvinist sense while maintaining absolute libertarian freedom. He accomplished this merely because he foreknew. Therefore, divine foreknowledge is useless as a libertarian theodicy.

(I have heard and therefore will anticipate the objection that there aren't enough alternate possible universes for Him to get everything exactly as he wants it by changing minutiae. As it happens, due to the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, statisticians actually are quite interested in quantifying the number of possible universes. I have heard figures anywhere between 10^10^80 to 10^10^200 possible configurations of universes roughly the same size as ours. Then, keep in mind, God can increase the size of the universe at the point of creation by one plank-unit, and keep doing that infinitely. There are, accordingly, an infinite number of possible worlds. God can absolutely keep sitting around, under molinism, removing stray ions from quasars until he gets everything the way he wants it, just like I can keep reloading my saved games until the random number generator gives me what I want.)

Open Theism, of course, just denies that God has actual foreknowledge of which contingent path men will actually take because they recognize that even simple foreknowledge applied to middle knowledge may as well amount to a functional libertarian Calvinism. Unfortunately, Open Theism is a bridge too far for the typical libertarian. It's also generally recognized as a contrivance with no scriptural basis designed exclusively to avoid an undesirable logical consequence of biblical theism.

So we have ideas like these in which the temporally bound God of Open-Theism-before-the-fact talks to the temporally bound God of Open-Theism-after-the-fact to get clued in to what's going to happen now that's He's done something. That's completely unexpositable and pretty clearly just an ad-hoc way to reinsert foreknowledge into the Open Theist's theodicy. If that's what you're looking for, then I suppose you'd find this to be clever thinking.

For the rest of us, it's an ad hoc rehabilitation of a contrivance designed to avoid the logical consequences of a doctrine so ancient and central to theology that every five year old in every denomination knows it. Which is wholly unimpressive.
 
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