Women

[now faith]

To paraphrase , Paul in 1st Timothy speaking of women. I suffer a woman not to teach or usurp authority ,over man. Now we are all aware of Phillips daughters, Priscilla who mentored Apollos with Aquilla. High priestess over Isreal and the list goes on. These women had authority over men, or they would have been silent as Timothy refers. This is my theory, Paul was speaking to Churches whom had been established. In other words he was referring to let's say Decon wives, not women of who had established there minsteries. I belive Paul was teaching order in church. I belive this text being misunderstood causes a lot of bitterness toward women Prechers today, so much they will not even consider what is being taught. Gossip today in church is a fire that burns everyone in church. Churches with a hardcore stance on women preachers seem to have more women in control than men behind the scenes. In logic they are in contradiction of the schripture they use to condem others. But I look forward to my WOF elders to teach me WOF view on this. Ladies first!

 

[charityagape]

Me too.

 

[Johnnz]

Paul uses a special word in that verse that means 'usurp authority'. Read through both Timothy letters and note carefully the problems Paul specified in the Ephesian church and you will get a better idea why he wrote those words.

John
NZ

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

To paraphrase , Paul in 1st Timothy speaking of women. I suffer a woman not to teach or usurp authority ,over man. Now we are all aware of Phillips daughters, Priscilla who mentored Apollos with Aquilla. High priestess over Isreal and the list goes on. These women had authority over men, or they would have been silent as Timothy refers. This is my theory, Paul was speaking to Churches whom had been established. In other words he was referring to let's say Decon wives, not women of who had established there minsteries. I belive Paul was teaching order in church. I belive this text being misunderstood causes a lot of bitterness toward women Prechers today, so much they will not even consider what is being taught. Gossip today in church is a fire that burns everyone in church. Churches with a hardcore stance on women preachers seem to have more women in control than men behind the scenes. In logic they are in contradiction of the schripture they use to condem others. But I look forward to my WOF elders to teach me WOF view on this. Ladies first!

many languages ancient and modern don't have a word for wife and husband. the only word they use is man and woman. if you read that passage (1tim2:12) in the original greek you will see that paul was really saying that a woman (wife) is not to lecture or domineer her man (husband).

in another place it says that women (wives) are to respect and honor their men (husbands) as they would honor the LORD. and men (husbands) are to love and care for their women (wives) as CHRIST takes care of the church.

there is a real blessing when women treat their husbands properly with respect and honor. there is also a real blessing when men treat their wives properly and take care of them lovingly and gently.

when translating the original greek and hebrew, scholars who are ignorant of our wise and wonderful GOD'S will/ways choose an english word that seems best to them. but ends up being wrong/inaccurate.

the NT has instructions on the marriage relationship - like the one you quoted. and then there are different scriptures that talk about spiritual anointings for service. women can be anointed by GOD for spiritual service just the same/equal to a man.

 

[tturt]

I know that some people interpret that Scripture to mean that women shouldn't teach males at all - in the home as mothers, in schools as formal educators, or Sunday School teachers, etc.

So if we don't agree with that idea but we have the position that women shouldn't teach in the church but it's ok for them to be in the back in the Sunday School area teaching children. Then at what age is she suppose to stop communicating with her male students? She was valuable, of service, to him earlier but now she isn't? Of course, the same applies to mothers, school teachers, etc.

Agree with Johnnz.

just a note - I laugh every time I read Paul's writing about women in I Cor 7:30 "And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;” Paul must have been perplexed.

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

I know that some people interpret that Scripture to mean that women shouldn't teach males at all - in the home as mothers, in schools as formal educators, or Sunday School teachers, etc.

So if we don't agree with that idea but we have the position that women shouldn't teach in the church but it's ok for them to be in the back in the Sunday School area teaching children. Then at what age is she suppose to stop communicating with her male students? She was valuable, of service, to him earlier but now she isn't?

Agree with Johnnz.

just a note - I laugh every time I read Paul's writing about women in I Cor 7:30 "And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;” Paul must have been perplexed.

exactly. GOD DIDN'T mean that women cannot teach boys and men, using their GOD-given teaching ability.

debra was a judge in the land and prophetess.
phillip's 7 daughters were prophetesses.
priscilla was ministering and teaching apollo.
mary magdelene was the first preacher of the resurrection to the men.
paul told the roman church to receive phoebe and her ministry.
paul commended other women as ministers of the LORD. philippians 4, romans 16

 

[andreha]

exactly. GOD DIDN'T mean that women cannot teach boys and men, using their GOD-given teaching ability.

debra was a judge in the land and prophetess.
phillip's 7 daughters were prophetesses.
priscilla was ministering and teaching apollo.
mary magdelene was the first preacher of the resurrection to the men.
paul told the roman church to receive phoebe and her ministry.
paul commended other women as ministers of the LORD.

Yes, this makes sense.

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

here is the link to the original greek of 1 timothy 2. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti2.pdf

quite different from the english version.

it appears from reading the greek that:

1. paul starts out asking that we pray for governmental leaders so that WE believers would all be ALLOWED to live a life of quietness - behaving/living mild devout sincere earnest - fitting behaviour for believers

2. he then asks that men gather in peaceful prayer vs 8

3. and women be modest vs 9

4. and women learn in quietness and humbly vs 11

5. and a wife is not to be instructing or domineering her man vs 12

6. but to be in quietness vs 12
just as vs 2 told EVERYONE to be in quietness. it is the same word to men and women

7. then he speaks about the place of husbands and wives vs 13-14

8. and tells women to be holy vs 15


so from all this it appears that SOME women were noticably disrespectful to their husbands AND were also causing the same kind of disrespectful trouble in the church timothy was pastoring.

timothy was young and i believe unmarried. so paul was trying to sort out a specific situation in timothy's church.

the greek word hesuchia used in vs 2 and vs 11 & 12 means to be in prayerful respectful quietness - not silence. so paul was trying to tell EVERYONE in timothy's church to live/behave in quietness. women and men.

 

[now faith]

Wonderful responses to a sensitive issue, in bible study there are common grounds that most agree up on in some areas. Some of the teaching of Paul was to correct issues in the churches that he had founded. I believe that teaching on conduct often times was proprietary to each church. Most pastors look to Corinthians, before the communion is held. This teaching was due to the church having somewhat of a party atmosphere during this holy time. Other things had happened as well in the churches and Paul had taught on them also. We need to discern the teaching and rightly divide it. One of my desires would be to learn Greek , it is amazing how some of the word is so profound in Greek, and Hebrew. I enjoy great teaching by pastor Prince and others. I do not believe in contradiction in the Bible only our lack of understanding.

 

[hislegacy]

Recommend reading "The Woman Question" by Kenneth Hagin

 

[tturt]

Thank YOU HolySpiritWOF2 - what a difference!

 

[PastorMike]

exactly. GOD DIDN'T mean that women cannot teach boys and men, using their GOD-given teaching ability.

debra was a judge in the land and prophetess.
phillip's 7 daughters were prophetesses.
priscilla was ministering and teaching apollo.
mary magdelene was the first preacher of the resurrection to the men.
paul told the roman church to receive phoebe and her ministry.
paul commended other women as ministers of the LORD. philippians 4, romans 16

I think the key is to look at all the plain passages of scripture as quoted above and not just take one verse out of context and try to disprove all the others with this one verse...

Women are necessary in the church otherwise we would have a complete male perspective... we need balance...

 

[CindyisHis]

I agree with this perspective of women in ministry. It's founded in scripture as already pointed out.

Women in the home is different. Let's take a real scenario. A man and his wife discuss whether or not to do such and such, a family matter, could be anything to purchasing something, where to live, who is responsible for this chore or that, etc. Let's say they do not see eye to eye....imagine that! However, does the Lord not have a plan for them? Will He not reveal the best choices to make? Could they not come together as one and see it the same way? What happens if after prayer they do not? Or if the man is not a believer and dominating the situation? As we know with relationships there are many variables influenced by personality, background, teaching, and real life situations they are in.

What does a woman do here? Should she always submit to the husband? What if she has a knowing on the inside? Should she just say, "Yes, dear?"

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

I agree with this perspective of women in ministry. It's founded in scripture as already pointed out.

Women in the home is different. Let's take a real scenario. A man and his wife discuss whether or not to do such and such, a family matter, could be anything to purchasing something, where to live, who is responsible for this chore or that, etc. Let's say they do not see eye to eye....imagine that! However, does the Lord not have a plan for them? Will He not reveal the best choices to make? Could they not come together as one and see it the same way? What happens if after prayer they do not? Or if the man is not a believer and dominating the situation? As we know with relationships there are many variables influenced by personality, background, teaching, and real life situations they are in.

What does a woman do here? Should she always submit to the husband? What if she has a knowing on the inside? Should she just say, "Yes, dear?"

love your post... the questions you raise are real and need real answers.... too important to give pat "religious" answers....

i remember reading about polly wigglesworth and smith. when he was going through a rebellious period.... rebellion to the LORD..... he was a saved man under conviction..... he told polly that she was not allowed to go to church as often as she was doing.... he wanted her to cut it out....

she told him no.... she said you are my lord smith but JESUS is my LORD.... so i will have to obey HIM when you and HIM disagree.... smith hated that but polly was determined. he treated her really badly trying to get her to cave..... she wouldn't....

she kept going to church and smith got increasingly upset and meaner.... he started locking her out of the house at night.... she would come home after evening services.... find the door locked.... and end up sleeping outside leaning against the locked door.... smith would open the door in the morning.... polly would fall in the door she was leaning on.... hop up and CHEERFULLY make smith and the children breakfast....

she kept it up until smith got right with the LORD and stopped his mistreatment of her.... and then we know the kind of GOD-fearing man smith wigglesworth became....

many attribute his success to the amazingly GODLY person polly was....

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

I think the key is to look at all the plain passages of scripture as quoted above and not just take one verse out of context and try to disprove all the others with this one verse...

Women are necessary in the church otherwise we would have a complete male perspective... we need balance...

amen...

 

[CindyisHis]

love your post... the questions you raise are real and need real answers.... too important to give pat "religious" answers....

i remember reading about polly wigglesworth and smith. when he was going through a rebellious period.... rebellion to the LORD..... he was a saved man under conviction..... he told polly that she was not allowed to go to church as often as she was doing.... he wanted her to cut it out....

she told him no.... she said you are my lord smith but JESUS is my LORD.... so i will have to obey HIM when you and HIM disagree.... smith hated that but polly was determined. he treated her really badly trying to get her to cave..... she wouldn't....

she kept going to church and smith got increasingly upset and meaner.... he started locking her out of the house at night.... she would come home after evening services.... find the door locked.... and end up sleeping outside leaning against the locked door.... smith would open the door in the morning.... polly would fall in the door she was leaning on.... hop up and CHEERFULLY make smith and the children breakfast....

she kept it up until smith got right with the LORD and stopped his mistreatment of her.... and then we know the kind of GOD-fearing man smith wigglesworth became....

many attribute his success to the amazingly GODLY person polly was....

Love this story, never tire of it.

Personally, if a husband and wife disagree I think she has to say what she thinks, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT. This is not to be an argument in which one comes out a winner. The only win situation in a marriage is when BOTH win. Therefore prayer is essential. If both will bow their knee to Jesus lordship they will both have the same mind, ideally. However, one may have a keener ear to the things of God. If it is the wife, she MUST speak up. Hopefully hubby will listen. If not, leave it be, rather to be a pest. But then there are times the Lord may prompt one to repeat. Repeat is the same as harping. Let's not forget about the leaking faucet, or the continual drip. A wife can be that and we don't want our men living on the corner of the roof.

If they do not see eye to eye even after prayer, is this the place when the wife is to submit to the husband?

 

[tturt]

CindyIsHis, Yes Scripture says husbands love wives while wives respect husbands. Isn't that great martial advice? I think we understand husbands loving wives but lack understanding what respect means to our husbands - just mo.

Very interesting Scripture to me is 1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.” KJV This doesn't address wives' prayers in this verse.

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

Love this story, never tire of it.

Personally, if a husband and wife disagree I think she has to say what she thinks, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT. This is not to be an argument in which one comes out a winner. The only win situation in a marriage is when BOTH win. Therefore prayer is essential. If both will bow their knee to Jesus lordship they will both have the same mind, ideally. However, one may have a keener ear to the things of God. If it is the wife, she MUST speak up. Hopefully hubby will listen. If not, leave it be, rather to be a pest. But then there are times the Lord may prompt one to repeat. Repeat is the same as harping. Let's not forget about the leaking faucet, or the continual drip. A wife can be that and we don't want our men living on the corner of the roof.

If they do not see eye to eye even after prayer, is this the place when the wife is to submit to the husband?

i know this pastor and his wife..... they told me one time how they deal with their "difference of opinion".... they try to sort it out without getting angry..... and if they cannot then they agree to go to bed praying.... and in the morning share what the LORD told each of them.... they declared that in their entire marriage they NEVER woke up still disagreeing in the morning.... one or both had a change of mind from the LORD speaking to them....

their story inspired me and i have used that principle many times.... and it ALWAYS works.... at least with anyone willing to pray overnight and then share the next day what they were told....

and the interesting thing is that people who don't normally hear from the LORD directly still agree to this solution to disagreements.... and the next day they are amazingly blessed to have had their first clear encounter of the LORD speaking to them....

GOD is soooooo good....

ps... i did this once with a group of 5 people who could not agree on a serious issue.... all 5 of us prayed and the next morning we had perfect agreement in the funniest way.... 1 person was told that what ever mrs x said that they were to agree with mrs x..... mrs x had a change of mind from the LORD.... and so all 5 of us were NOW in blessed agreement.....

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

Recommend reading "The Woman Question" by Kenneth Hagin

amen.... good book....

 

[tturt]

Thanks HolySpiritWOF2 for that strategy.