Woman Dies Over Bibles

[Lillithspeak]

I was merely citing an example of someone outside of China. If this woman's beating was not just, as you just admitted, then how can it be acceptable? Just because China is a different country with different rules doesn't mean that we can be fine with something as horrid as people who never hurt anyone being beaten to death.

Sure, she's probably in Heaven now, and she may have known the dangers when she started. If she knew she might have become a martyr and was okay with that, fine, but that still doesn't erase the fact that a social injustice was committed here!

Also, remember that this woman was not a missionary. She was native to China.

You might re-read what I posted. I didn't say it was justice, I didn't say anyone had to accept it as okay. Where did I say it was acceptable? Where are you reading this stuff? Not in my post. I pointed out also that she was Chinese.

 

[Lillithspeak]

On the contrary, that in no way diminiishes the tragedy of what happened. Should we not care about anyone dying then, or being murdered? You still didn't address the prallel I made... if you were beaten to death over an unpiad parking tickets, that would not be a tragedy by your understanding then? We should just shrug and move on?

The tragedy is that she is one less child of God amongst us.... the tragedy is that God is against murder, the tragedy is that this was a sin in the eyes of God, the tragedy is that perhaps the message of God will not reach some people that she might have been been able to reach out to if her life had not been cut short, the tragedy is for any soul that might be lost because she can't reach out to them now, the tragedy is for a family that will never see their beloved one again in this life, the tragedy is that some people just shrug their shoulders over this.

Your question was baiting and bad baiting at that. You call it a tragedy, I don't see it that way. I said it was a sad loss for her loved ones. It's not a tragedy that she went home to God as that is your stated goal as a christian I do believe. Doesn't your faith say no soul is lost to God? Is her death not God's will? Why do you assume that not assigning it to tragic status means I just shrugged my shoulders when I've obviously not done so by noting her death here in this forum? Have you been up all night grieving? Pacing the floor in unrelenting sorrow? Have you been sitting around with friends telling stories of her life and how she affected yours? No, of course not, she's a stranger to you, why would you be doing these things. Stop being so phony in your pious response.

 

[Larry]

Your question was baiting and bad baiting at that. You call it a tragedy, I don't see it that way. I said it was a sad loss for her loved ones. It's not a tragedy that she went home to God as that is your stated goal as a christian I do believe. Doesn't your faith say no soul is lost to God? Is her death not God's will? Why do you assume that not assigning it to tragic status means I just shrugged my shoulders when I've obviously not done so by noting her death here in this forum? Have you been up all night grieving? Pacing the floor in unrelenting sorrow? Have you been sitting around with friends telling stories of her life and how she affected yours? No, of course not, she's a stranger to you, why would you be doing these things. Stop being so phony in your pious response.

Police brutallity leading to death is a tragic event, regardless of the overall circumstances - no matter how you slice it. And in the following definition of tragic, I don't see being 'up all night grieving', 'pacing the floor in unrelenting sorrow', or 'sitting around with friends telling stories of her life and how she affected yours', as qualifiers for something being tragic. And, just because it happened to someone far away from us, it does not diminish the tragic event one bit. Tragic is not relevant on how, how much, or for how long others react.

Main Entry: trag·ic
Pronunciation: 'tra-jik
Variant(s): also trag·i·cal /-ji-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin tragicus, from Greek tragikos, irregular from tragOidia tragedy
1 : of, marked by, or expressive of tragedy <the tragic significance of the atomic bomb -- H. S. Truman>
2 a : dealing with or treated in tragedy <the tragic hero> b : appropriate to or typical of tragedy
3 a : regrettably serious or unpleasant : DEPLORABLE, LAMENTABLE <a tragic mistake> b : marked by a sense of tragedy

 

[Blessed75]

It's okay Lillith - Some believers TOTALLY get your perspective. Keep up the good work mate!

Your question was baiting and bad baiting at that. You call it a tragedy, I don't see it that way. I said it was a sad loss for her loved ones. It's not a tragedy that she went home to God as that is your stated goal as a christian I do believe. Doesn't your faith say no soul is lost to God? Is her death not God's will? Why do you assume that not assigning it to tragic status means I just shrugged my shoulders when I've obviously not done so by noting her death here in this forum? Have you been up all night grieving? Pacing the floor in unrelenting sorrow? Have you been sitting around with friends telling stories of her life and how she affected yours? No, of course not, she's a stranger to you, why would you be doing these things. Stop being so phony in your pious response.

 

[Blessed-one]

*MOD HAT ON*

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

1) You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.

*point at several posts on this page*

Please people, keep to the RULES. I don't want to close this thread, and it's been going so nicely..

*MOD HAT OFF*

 

[jameseb]

Your question was baiting and bad baiting at that. You call it a tragedy, I don't see it that way.

Lilith, I wasn't trying to bait you, but I apologize if you perceived it as such. I was giving you a paralled example of how the punishement doesn't fit the crime.

I said it was a sad loss for her loved ones. It's not a tragedy that she went home to God as that is your stated goal as a christian I do believe. Doesn't your faith say no soul is lost to God? Is her death not God's will? Why do you assume that not assigning it to tragic status means I just shrugged my shoulders when I've obviously not done so by noting her death here in this forum?

Lillith, I listed several reasons as to why this was a terrible tragedy. However, you didn't address them, which is fine, but it prohibits a meaningful discussion if you simply ignore it and continue to claim its not a "tragedy" contrary to the truth. Placing even religion aside, assume an aethist was killed. Would that disqualify the death as a tragedy simply because there's no belief in eternity, that we're all going to die one day and there's nothing for us afterwards anyway so no big deal? That might not be a satisfactory example, but I hope that you do see the point I'm getting at.

Have you been up all night grieving? Pacing the floor in unrelenting sorrow? Have you been sitting around with friends telling stories of her life and how she affected yours? No, of course not, she's a stranger to you, why would you be doing these things.

Lilith, I prayed for her family, those she was trying to help and her soul last night. How does my familiarity with her have anything to do with my compassion for her?

Stop being so phony in your pious response.

I think that will conclude our conversation. I'm sorry a more meaningful discussion couldn't be had.

 

[Larry]

I think the tragedy lies in the fact that such an action can lead to one's arrest. Also, how can you say she justly suffered the consequences? Being beaten to death cannot possibly be the penalty for handing out Bibles in China. If Martin Luther King Jr. had been beaten to death in prison for practicing civil disobedience, would you say he had received what was coming to him?

Well said!

 

[BigToe]

Now the laws might have changed in the past couple of years, but you can't talk about God or Christ in public. So handing out Bibles is in fact against Chinese law. As a Chinese citizen this woman was aware of the possible consequences she would have to face. However, that does not make her beating any more or less morally ok. But at least she died fighting the fight and can now be seated with her Father in Heaven!

Anyway, I have several friends who have been in China for a couple of years now. They have to come up with code words for God and Christ and church and the like or they can get into HUGE trouble. They have to switch off their translators and such on a really regular basis so that those Chinese citizens will have a smaller chance of getting caught. If my friends get caught- they get deported, if the Chinese citizens helping get caught- they die.

They aren't even allowed to have an alter call in their church services. So while it isn't illegal to be a Christian per se- its basically illegal to practice it. So technically it might be a state-approved religion, but for all practical intents and purposes it's not.

 

[Blessed-one]

ok, somebody said a few pages ago that this was done by the police and had nothing to do with the authority. You'll be surprised by what the authority does. So called police in China is naturally, corrupted, and so is the authority. The Chinese government has tried to crack down on them, but how can you do it when the whole system is corrupted? short of sacking everybody leaving vacancies everywhere. (source: a chinese media report i watched in HK last year)

can't dismiss this one as false and 'because she didn't follow the rules of the country'. Let's reverse the roles and put all Americans on Chinese soil under Chinese rules.

torture in prisons in China is not surprising. But if you had money, you could ease the suffering..
so why is the media making a fuss about beating Iraq prisoners again?

 

[Larry]

She was doing God's work, which transcends man's laws. The tragedy of her death is those who are left behind and who mourne her.

Amen!!

 

[jameseb]

Police brutallity leading to death is a tragic event, regardless of the overall circumstances - no matter how you slice it. And in the following definition of tragic, I don't see being 'up all night grieving', 'pacing the floor in unrelenting sorrow', or 'sitting around with friends telling stories of her life and how she affected yours', as qualifiers for something being tragic. And, just because it happened to someone far away from us, it does not diminish the tragic event one bit. Tragic is not relevant on how, how much, or for how long others react.

****You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Larry again.


Larry, you're by far more articulate in your line of thought than I am, thank you.


Tragedy ~ regrettably serious or unpleasant : deplorable, lamentable.


I should have just gone straight to the dictionary in the first place.

 

[BigToe]

But if you had money, you could ease the suffering..
so why is the media making a fuss about beating Iraq prisoners again?

because that is an entirely different issue. both are deplorable. at least the chinese police don't try to pull the morally superior card like the american government does. but comparing the two is really pointless.

someone was beaten to death for breaking a law. did they have the right to do that? they thought they did. does that mean we should be ok with it? of course not. but you already mentioned how things get corrupted. people abuse power everywhere. its a rather unfortunate fact of life that we should all promise we won't add to.

But again, while we think this action is quite disgusting- I think we should be glad that this needless death resulted in someone going to Heaven.

 

[jameseb]

ok, somebody said a few pages ago that this was done by the police and had nothing to do with the authority. You'll be surprised by what the authority does. So called police in China is naturally, corrupted, and so is the authority. The Chinese government has tried to crack down on them, but how can you do it when the whole system is corrupted? short of sacking everybody leaving vacancies everywhere. (source: a chinese media report i watched in HK last year)

can't dismiss this one as false and 'because she didn't follow the rules of the country'. Let's reverse the roles and put all Americans on Chinese soil under Chinese rules.

torture in prisons in China is not surprising. But if you had money, you could ease the suffering..
so why is the media making a fuss about beating Iraq prisoners again?

Hey you! Don't run off so fast!


Maybe you can help us clarify this.... is Christianity legal in China? Missionaries are allowed, they just can't seek converts, correct?

Thanks in advance, the clarity will help!

 

[Larry]

Lilith, I wasn't trying to bait you, but I apologize if you perceived it as such. I was giving you a paralled example of how the punishement doesn't fit the crime.





Lillith, I listed several reasons as to why this was a terrible tragedy. However, you didn't address them, which is fine, but it prohibits a meaningful discussion if you simply ignore it and continue to claim its not a "tragedy" contrary to the truth. Placing even religion aside, assume an aethist was killed. Would that disqualify the death as a tragedy simply because there's no belief in eternity, that we're all going to die one day and there's nothing for us afterwards anyway so no big deal? That might not be a satisfactory example, but I hope that you do see the point I'm getting at.






Lilith, I prayed for her family, those she was trying to help and her soul last night. How does my familiarity with her have anything to do with my compassion for her?





I think that will conclude our conversation. I'm sorry a more meaningful discussion couldn't be had.

I understood you completely. And as far as I'm concerned, you are one of the few people on this board who are not phony by any stretch of the imagination.

Keep up the good work, brother!!

 

[Larry]

Given the possibility that prosteletizing Christianity may be against the law in China, is the penalty death? Was her death a state-ordered execution? Was there an official judgment and penalty carried out in that jail?

 

[jameseb]

I understood you completely. And as far as I'm concerned, you are one of the few people on this board who are not phony by any stretch of the imagination.

Keep up the good work, brother!!

You're making my inner-child blush..


But seriously, thank you, brother. After the questioning I was getting I was starting to wonder if I was making any sense at all. Heck, I haven't even started on my pain killers for the oral surgery I'm getting.... can't wait to see how much sense I making then...

 

[jameseb]

Given the possibility that prosteletizing Christianity may be against the law in China, is the penalty death? Was her death a state-ordered execution? Was there an official judgment and penalty carried out in that jail?

Last night I was searching the web to see if I could find any information of that sort, but no luck. However, I was quiet tired and might have missed something.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

i've a friend who's in china now doing missionary work. he's with the english language institute, teaching locals english and learning some cantonese on his own time. from what he's said (and it's been a year or so since i've heard from him actually, now i'm a little concerned after reading all this...) he is not allowed to bring up Christianity or anything but if a student asks HIM a question he is free to answer.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

I understood you completely. And as far as I'm concerned, you are one of the few people on this board who are not phony by any stretch of the imagination.

Keep up the good work, brother!!

at the risk of breaking forum rules, i must concur with Larry. i felt what lillith was driving at but it was off the mark and unfortunately the whole communication broke down

 

[TriptychR]

You might re-read what I posted. I didn't say it was justice, I didn't say anyone had to accept it as okay. Where did I say it was acceptable? Where are you reading this stuff? Not in my post. I pointed out also that she was Chinese.

You argued that Dr. King was not a missionary, so what did that have to do with this argument?

I have reread your posts, but I am still confused. You're not saying it's justice, you're not saying people should accept it as okay or not. Just what exactly is the point you are trying to make, then? I think things might've become have become muddled; that some of us are talking about different parts of this story without knowing it. I would greatly appreciate it if you laid down your complete and final view on this matter in your next post.