Willie Nelson: Twin Towers Were Imploded On 9/11

[joebudda]

And what does any of that have to do with George W. Bush? Because I'm not aware of him doing any of the above either.

I would be wary of the main stream media if I were you, they lie too.

Didn't he say something about WMDs? Didn't he sign the patriot act, amongst others.

 

[oldbetang]

Didn't he say something about WMDs?

Yes he did. As did the US Intelligence community.

Didn't he sign the patriot act, amongst others.

He did sign the Patriot Act, yes. And your point is?

 

[joebudda]

Yes he did. As did the US Intelligence community.

He did sign the Patriot Act, yes. And your point is?

My point is he did lie and sign away our civil liberties. Thank you for supporting my point.

 

[oldbetang]

My point is he did lie and sign away our civil liberties. Thank you for supporting my point.

Could you please specify how I've supported either of your two points? Bush was merely using the information that the Intelligence community gave him. Hence, he was not lying when claiming that Iraq had WMDs and WMD programs. On your second point, what civil liberties have been signed away?

 

[joebudda]

Could you please specify how I've supported either of your two points?

According to two different CIA officers Bush did know there were no WMDs.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/index_np.html

And the Patriot act that he signed has robbed us of many of our civil liberties.
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Think i just realized why socks get used on certain subjects only. Hey, i wouldnt want anyone to know who i really am either given the absurd claims laid out as if this were february 03.

 

[oldbetang]

According to two different CIA officers Bush did know there were no WMDs.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/index_np.html

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/index_np.html


You warned me to be wary of the media and then you post an opinion piece by Sid Vicious? Give me a break!

And the Patriot act that he signed has robbed us of many of our civil liberties.
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html

How about some specifics please? I don't have the stomach to sift through ACLU propaganda.

 

[oldbetang]

Oh, and BTW, Drumheller was discredited by the bi-partisan Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

 

[joebudda]

You warned me to be wary of the media and then you post an opinion piece by Sid Vicious? Give me a break!

I was using it for the names of the former senior CIA officers that have confirmed Drumheller's account.

I do commend your taking my advice regarding the media though.

How about some specifics please? I don't have the stomach to sift through ACLU propaganda.

The Patriot Act gives the government the power to access to your medical records, tax records, information about the books you buy or borrow without probable cause, and the power to break into your home and conduct secret searches without telling you for weeks, months, or indefinitely.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

The same lame claim about drumheller? That senate report was self admittedly incomplete! They didnt discredit him in any way so give that crap a rest.

 

[oldbetang]

I was using it for the names of the former senior CIA officers that have confirmed Drumheller's account.

Well, that's rather odd. Since I can't seem to find the names of the "former senior CIA officers" in that article.

The Patriot Act gives the government the power to access to your medical records, tax records, information about the books you buy or borrow without probable cause, and the power to break into your home and conduct secret searches without telling you for weeks, months, or indefinitely.

Hmmm!

Access to Records

Probably the most hotly debated provision of the law, Section 215 has come to be known as the "libraries provision," even though it never mentions libraries or bookstores. Civil liberties groups attack the breadth of this section -- which allows investigators to obtain "any tangible thing (including books, records, papers, documents and other items)," as long as the records are sought "in connection with" a terror investigation.​

Library groups said the law could be used to demand the reading records of patrons. But the government points out that the First Amendment activities of Americans are specifically protected by the law. The Justice Department has released previously classified statistics to show the law has never been used against libraries or bookstores. But the act's critics argue that there's no protection against future abuse.

Civil liberties groups have proposed numerous amendments: special protections for libraries and bookstores; a requirement that investigators explain the reason the records are sought; and an end to the "gag rule" that prohibits people who receive a 215 order from talking about it with anyone. The Justice Department has agreed that recipients can consult with an attorney and is open to an amendment that specifies this right. But the government says the controversy over this provision is an overreaction, and that this section merely expands longstanding access to certain business records.
​

“Sneak & Peek” Warrants

This section allows for "delayed notice" of search warrants, which means the FBI can search a home or business without immediately notifying the target of the investigation. The Justice Department says this provision has already allowed investigators to search the houses of drug dealers and other criminals without providing notice that might have jeopardized an investigation. Investigators still have to explain why they want to delay notice, and must eventually tell the target about the search.

Critics say that investigators already had the power to conduct secret searches in counterterror and counterespionage probes. The Patriot Act, they say, authorized the use of this technique for any crime, no matter how minor. They say that "sneak and peek" searches should be narrowly limited to cases in which an investigation would be seriously jeopardized by immediate notice. Legislation to cut off funding for such searches passed the House in 2003. However, this provision does not face a sunset as other controversial provisions do, so it may be harder for opponents to amend it.


​

From NPR, of all places.

 

[oldbetang]

The same lame claim about drumheller? That senate report was self admittedly incomplete! They didnt discredit him in any way so give that crap a rest.

According to the report , the information provided by Naji Sabri to the CIA included the following main points:

• Although Iraq was aggressively and covertly attempting to develop nuclear weapons, they were not in possession of such a weapon at the time.
• Saddam's Nuclear Weapons Committee informed him that a Nuclear Weapon would be ready within 18-24 months of acquiring the fissile material. The return of UN inspectors would cause minimal disruption because Iraq was expert at denial and deception.
• Iraq was currently producing and stockpiling chemical weapons.
• Iraqi scientists were dabbling with biological weapons with limited success, but the quantities were not sufficient to constitute a real weapons program.
• Iraq's weapon of last resort were mobile launchers armed with chemical weapons which would be fired at enemy forces and Israel

From pages 146 and 147 of the PDF:

The 60 minutes story focused on the account of the former Chief of CIA’s Europe Division(Chief/EUR) who claimed that the source described above “told us that [Iraq] had no active weapons of mass destruction program”. This story was followed by numerous other media appearances by the former Chief/EUR such as, CNN’s Lou Dobbs Tonight and Anderson Cooper 360 degrees, and MSNBC’s Hardball, in which he claimed that the source said Iraq had no WMD programs.

Concerned that something might have been missed in our first Iraq review, the Committee began to request additional information from the Intelligence community and to question current and former CIA officers who were involved in this issue. As noted above, the Committee has not completed this inquiry, but we have seen the operational documentation pertaining to this case. We can say that there is not a single document related to this case which indicates that the source said Iraq had no WMD programs. Both the operations cable and the intelligence report prepared for high-level policymakers said that while Saddam Hussein did not have a nuclear weapon “he was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon”. Both documents said that ‘Iraq was producing and stockpiling chemical weapons” and they both said Iraq’s weapon of last resort was mobile launched chemical weapons , which would be fired at enemy forces and Israel. The sources comments were consistent with the nuclear, chemical and missile assessments in the October 2002 WMD NIE. The only program not described as fully active was the biological weapons program which the source described as “amateur”, and not constituting a real weapons program.

The former Director of Central Intelligence testified before the Committee in July 2006 that the former Chief/EUR “had mischaracterized [the source’s] information” and said the former Chief/EUR never expressed a view to him, as the former Chief/EUR has claimed publicly, that the source’s information meant Iraq did not have WMD programs. The Committee is still exploring why the former Chief/EUR’s public remarks differ so markedly from the documentation.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

That npr piece only reinforced Joe's position. It basically says the bill of rights are inapplicable to americans simply on the grounds of 'in connection' with a terrorism investigation.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

As stated, the report is self admittedly incomplete. Nothing there discredits drumheller. Saying the documents they have looked at dont match drumheller is a false dilemma.

 

[joebudda]

Well, that's rather odd. Since I can't seem to find the names of the "former senior CIA officers" in that article.

I admit, that was unfair of me to not dig them out for you.

Here they are.
CIA director George Tenet and CIA deputy director John McLaughlin.

 

[oldbetang]

That npr piece only reinforced Joe's position. It basically says the bill of rights are inapplicable to americans simply on the grounds of 'in connection' with a terrorism investigation.

It doesn't say that the Bill of Rights are inapplicable to Americans. In fact, the type of searches referred to in the original Section 215 were allowed, provided the investigation didn't violate the First Amendment rights of an American citizen.


Even the ACLU has dropped its objections to the Patriot Act, including the section in question:

The American Civil Liberties Union has dropped a three-year-old lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the USA Patriot Act, months after Congress rewrote parts of the law.


The ACLU said Friday it is withdrawing the lawsuit because of "improvements to the law."

The Justice Department argued last month that amendments approved by Congress in March had corrected any constitutional flaws in the Patriot Act.


The lawsuit, filed in July 2003 on behalf of the Muslim Community Association of Ann Arbor, Mich., and five other nonprofit groups, was the first legal challenge to Section 215. That part of the Patriot Act lets federal agents obtain such things as library records and medical information.


The ACLU said the revisions allow people receiving demands for records to consult with a lawyer and challenge the demands in court.







​

 

[oldbetang]

As stated, the report is self admittedly incomplete.

That was of two years ago. Can you show me where there is still an ongoing investigation by the Committee on this matter?

Nothing there discredits drumheller. Saying the documents they have looked at dont match drumheller is a false dilemma.

It's not just the documentation, or lack thereof (on Drumheller's part), that raises doubt about Drumheller. Former CIA director George Tenet and CIA deputy director John McLaughlin have both contradicted him.

 

[oldbetang]

I admit, that was unfair of me to not dig them out for you.

Here they are.
CIA director George Tenet and CIA deputy director John McLaughlin.

. Substantiation please!

 

[WayWord]

Ahhhhhhhhh.........popular mechanics is owned by Hearst.


[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]........he is actually saying that DNA of the hijackers was pulled from the rubble ("all over the place"), and where was the original DNA from that they compared it to??!


And he claims that the term "pull it" has never been used in terms of demolition.

Hijack 'suspect' alive in Morocco - BBC News

Sunday, 23 September, 2001, 12:30 GMT 13:30 UK
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well

Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.

The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.

Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.

His photograph was released, and has since appeared in newspapers and on television around the world.

Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.

He told journalists there that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco when they happened. He has contacted both the Saudi and American authorities, according to Saudi press reports.

He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Daytona Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.

But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.

Mistaken identity

Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports.

He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.

Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News.

The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.

Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi.

He was listed by the FBI as a hijacker in the United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.

And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.

FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.

from BBC News

How in the world could they possibly have recovered DNA from any of the alleged hijackers who crashed the planes into WTC 1 & 2?

And where'd they get the DNA samples to test against in order to verify their identities?

At least four of the hijacker names the FBI released have beenchallenged by Saudi Arabians with the same or similar names who saytheir identities were stolen. Saudi officials claim, for instance, thatan electrical engineer called Abdul Aziz al-Omari - the same name asone of the hijackers on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon - hadhis passport stolen in 1996 in Denver.

from www.guardian.co.uk - Sunday September 30 2001

By the way, how does this happen?

It is reported that the passport of hijacker Satam Al Suqami has been found a few blocks from the World Trade Center.

from www.cooperativeresearch.org

Last week, a passport belonging to one of the hijackers was found in the vicinity of Vesey Street, near the World Trade Center. "It was a significant piece of evidence for us," Mawn said.

from Ashcroft says more attacks may be planned - CNN, September 18, 2001 Posted: 9:24 AM EDT (1324 GMT)

In less than a week came another find, two blocks away from the twin towers, in the shape of Atta's passport. We had all seen the blizzard of paper rain down from the towers, but the idea that Atta's passport had escaped from that inferno unsinged would have tested the credulity of the staunchest supporter of the FBI's crackdown on terrorism.

from Uncle Sam's lucky finds - The Guardian, Tuesday March 19 2002

In addition, a damaged passport bearing the last name of one of the hijackers, Nawaf al Hazmi, was found at the crash scene.

from usinfo.state.gov

I suppose those passports were dipped in the River Styx.

 

[oldbetang]

From the BBC:

A five-year-old story from our archive has been the subject of some recent editorial discussion here. The story, written in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, was about confusion at the time surrounding the names and identities of some of the hijackers. This confusion was widely reported and was also acknowledged by the FBI. The story has been cited ever since by some as evidence that the 9/11 attacks were part of a US government conspiracy.

We later reported on the list of hijackers, thereby superseding the earlier report. In the intervening years we have also reported in detail on the investigation into the attacks, the 9/11 commission and its report.

We’ve carried the full report, executive summary and main findingsa detailed guide to what’s known about what happened on the day. But conspiracy theories have persisted. The confusion over names and identities we reported back in 2001 may have arisen because these were common Arabic and Islamic names. and, as part of the recent fifth anniversary coverage,


In an effort to make this clearer, we have made one small change to the original story. Under the FBI picture of Waleed al Shehri we have added the words "A man called Waleed Al Shehri..." to make it as clear as possible that there was confusion over the identity. The rest of the story remains as it was in the archive as a record of the situation at the time.
We recently asked the FBI for a statement, and this is, as things stand, the closest thing we have to a definitive view: The FBI is confident that it has positively identified the nineteen hijackers responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Also, the 9/11 investigation was thoroughly reviewed by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States and the House and Senate Joint Inquiry. Neither of these reviews ever raised the issue of doubt about the identity of the nineteen hijackers.
​