Why Obamacare is the best thing that's happened to this country in years

[AMDG]

I don't know about Warrior, but I missed one of your posts on the first page. The one that indicated that the Pope was for this (well he isn't and the Church had a campaign against it--still have a campaign against the HHS Mandate). The Bishops were against this because of the abortion, the rationing, and the lack of subsidiarity. (Bet it's still on their site, if you want to check.)

I also missed the one where polit-fact was used about death panels (even though I didn't mention them--only the rationing.) Well, *of course* it's not mentioned as "death panels". (You don't tell the rats that they are in a maze! Duh!) Instead there is a panel for cost effectiveness. It's the IPAB. And I believe that the Stimulus (the one we had to pass so that the unemployment rate would be below 7.8% (even though it has raised to higher amounts to come down to the 7.8% before the election to again skyrocket now) had another board for Obamacare about "cost effectiveness".

Now forget about the polti-fact "fact checking" and think--how do you add more patients, reduce the amount of doctors and still be "cost effective" without rationing? You can't. Rationing is going to be necessary. Oh, the premiums on my insurance have skyrocketed, co-pays are now more than an office visit, my doctor's hours are now limited so he can help at the hospital, my husband no longer has a doctor (he has a nurse--there *is* a reason that nurses aren't doctors), doctors have signs out saying that they aren't taking new patients--very few take Medicare patients to begin with and my doctor says that 40% will be leaving the profession anyway so the only way there's a chance of seeing a doctor is at the ER--oh, my insurance just told us that we will be allowed 5 ER visits each! Don't call that rationing? I sure do. (Of course, Cass Sustein might call that a "nudge".)

There are more problems with Obamacare because it was rammed down our throats so fast. I believe I mentioned it in my link. There are at least six major problems that will have to be dealt with according to the Cato Institute.

 

[Anna Scott]

I don't know about Warrior, but I missed one of your posts on the first page. The one that indicated that the Pope was for this (well he isn't and the Church had a campaign against it--still have a campaign against the HHS Mandate). The Bishops were against this because of the abortion, the rationing, and the lack of subsidiarity. (Bet it's still on their site, if you want to check.) . . .

AMDG,
I didn't say the Pope is for Obama's Affordable Care Act, I said he advocates Government healthcare---as in "justice in healthcare" as an "inalienable right," as in "the Government's obligation to adopt the proper legislative, administrative and financial measures to provide such care along with other basic conditions that promote good health."

I referenced this article: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone read the Pope's message. So, adding what the Pope said and what the Cardinal said: healthcare is one of the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]inalienable rights of man, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]justice in healthcare should be a priority of Governments and international institutions, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Governments should take care of all citizens, especially children, the elderly, the poor and immigrants, and [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Governments are obligated to adopt the proper legislative, administrative and financial measures to provide such care along with other basic conditions that promote good health, such as food security, water and housing.

____________________

So, how does the Government accomplish these things and take care of all citizens without Government involvement in healthcare? [/FONT][/FONT]

. . . .One thing that is often left out of the Affordable Care Act discussion is our moral obligation as Christians to provide for the needy and less fortunate.

Even the Pope advocates government healthcare. See: Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people By Sarah Delaney Catholic News Service
"VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay. . . . . The care of man, his transcendent dignity and his inalienable rights" are issues that should concern Christians, the pope said.

Because an individual's health is a "precious asset" to society as well as to himself, governments and other agencies should seek to protect it by "dedicating the equipment, resources and energy so that the greatest number of people can have access." . . .

Anna

 

[LoAmmi]

my doctor says that 40% will be leaving the profession

I mentioned this to a family friend who is a doctor and about ten minutes later, when he stopped laughing, he said that was one of the dumbest things he's heard all year. Even under your doomsday views, being a doctor is still one of the most profitable professions in the country and they have already put years and years of training into it.

 

[AMDG]

I mentioned this to a family friend who is a doctor and about ten minutes later, when he stopped laughing, he said that was one of the dumbest things he's heard all year.

My doctor wasn't laughing. (BTW the percentage was *his*. I was only mentioning the 30% Catholic hospitals, he said that doctors that he knows say the percentage is more like 40%.) Oh, since then, I've posted youtubes for you of *other* doctors who also claimed that 40%. And I posted one for you that actually claimed 60% because it was said that Obamacare will force doctors to violate their Hippocratic oathes.

 

[LoAmmi]

My doctor wasn't laughing. (BTW the percentage was *his*. I was only mentioning the 30% Catholic hospitals, he said that doctors that he knows say the percentage is more like 40%.) Oh, since then, I've posted youtubes for you of *other* doctors who also claimed that 40%. And I posted one for you that actually claimed 60% because it was said that Obamacare will force doctors to violate their Hippocratic oathes.

and yet the huge medical survey, the one you posted on a thread a long time ago, said that over the next three years something like 7% of doctors plan to leave the medical profession.

So, what should we trust? A survey that involved thousands of doctors, or your doctor and some random fear-mongering YouTube people who claim to be doctors?

What is Obamacare doing that is going to cause a doctor to violate his oath? You mean the fictional death squads you keep making up?

 

[Anna Scott]

I also missed the one where polit-fact was used about death panels (even though I didn't mention them--only the rationing.) Well, *of course* it's not mentioned as "death panels". (You don't tell the rats that they are in a maze! Duh!) Instead there is a panel for cost effectiveness. It's the IPAB. And I believe that the Stimulus (the one we had to pass so that the unemployment rate would be below 7.8% (even though it has raised to higher amounts to come down to the 7.8% before the election to again skyrocket now) had another board for Obamacare about "cost effectiveness."

AMDG,
Cost effectiveness and rationing of care have been part Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance company practice for years. Why do so few people know this?

In the private sector, there are people who review your healthcare case and decide, not simply the cost effectiveness of your care, but if you meet criteria for treatment or continued treatment. This often clashes with your physicians opinion in the matter of your treatment. When your appeals to your insurance company fail, you can request an IRO. They decide whether or not you meet criteria, not your physician. For most people, a denial of payment of services translates into a denial of access to services or a heavy financial burden.

An IRO in the Sate of Texas: Independent Review Organizations

I don't know where everyone has been for the last couple of decades.

Anna

 

[AMDG]

Snipped to

people who claim to be doctors?

Well, they were doctors--like Dr. Bellar, who was a lawyer, a doctor, and a nun, seems after the election she was fired and now has to put her "lawyers" hat to work on getting that overturned. Dr. Jindal was quitting anyway so I guess he can qualify for your "claim". Same with the other woman doctor that claimed the percentage was 60%. Think the three doctors on Doctors4Truth haven't quit yet.

What is Obamacare doing that is going to cause a doctor to violate his oath?

You know, that "one size fits all" where the doctor has to follow the regulations that the Federal government tells the doctor how to treat the patient instead of having the patient's best interest in mind. And don't tell me that's not happening because it is *right now*. Granddaughter needs a certain medicine--oh no that's not in the federal regulations, find another. It's happened to friend and to husband too. And don't forget all the women who are now told that they don't really need mammograms as often as they used to. Or the women with breast cancer who are told that the medicine that could help them is no longer allowed (government regulations.) Or the men who are told not to have certain tests (cost effective you know). It's been happening more and more. The treatments are "one size" and not tailored to the person anymore. You should have watched that youtube with the 60% percentage. It would have explained in the details you want.

You mean the fictional death squads you keep making up?

What are you making up now? I've never ever said that there are death squads. All that Obamacare has in it is the IPAB which is a 15 non-medical and non-elected group that is to decide if a treatment is "cost-effective". Also said that the Stimulus has another "cost-effective" board.

 

[AMDG]

See her post above.

I have said that there is rationing. I have noted that my insurance company has limited us to 5 ER visits each and I have noted that most doctors around here don't take Medicare (many don't take Medicaid either). Obamacare is going to make it so that ER visits are going to be the *only* way to see a doctor and yet there's a limitation? That in itself is rationing. If you can't see it, so be it. I do (and I daresay that most of America does too--since Obamacare is *very* unpopular and will become more so with the lack of doctors and the layoffs it causes and the cost.)

Enjoy it. You see I guess I'm luckier than most of you. Just like my elderly friend, a secular Carmelite said "I'm getting up in years." (Say, she's the one I was speaking about--the one whose treatment was changed by regulations.)

Not including the 40 some odd lawsuits against the HHS Mandate, there are six major probems with Obamacare that both the Dems and the Repubs are going to have to address whether they like it or not.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, they were doctors--like Dr. Bellar, who was a lawyer, a doctor, and a nun, seems after the election she was fired and now has to put her "lawyers" hat to work on getting that overturned. Dr. Jindal was quitting anyway so I guess he can qualify for your "claim". Same with the other woman doctor that claimed the percentage was 60%. Think the three doctors on Doctors4Truth haven't quit yet.

7 percent over the next 3 years and this was after Obamacare passed. A neutral survey or Doctors4Agenda? Hmm...

You know, that "one size fits all" where the doctor has to follow the regulations that the Federal government tells the doctor how to treat the patient instead of having the patient's best interest in mind. And don't tell me that's not happening because it is *right now*. Granddaughter needs a certain medicine--oh no that's not in the federal regulations, find another. It's happened to friend and to husband too. And don't forget all the women who are now told that they don't really need mammograms as often as they used to. Or the women with breast cancer who are told that the medicine that could help them is no longer allowed (government regulations.) Or the men who are told not to have certain tests (cost effective you know). It's been happening more and more. The treatments are "one size" and not tailored to the person anymore. You should have watched that youtube with the 60% percentage. It would have explained in the details you want.

I thought that it was all about insurance and not about care. Are you backing off that now and it is about care and not about insurance? I mean, if Obamacare refuses to fund, can't they just pay out of pocket in the glorious free market?

What are you making up now? I've never ever said that there are death squads. All that Obamacare has in it is the IPAB which is a 15 non-medical and non-elected group that is to decide if a treatment is "cost-effective". Also said that the Stimulus has another "cost-effective" board.

Oh, right the death panel that is restricted from rationing care, making them not a death panel. It's like calling a donut a doomsday machine.

 

[Anna Scott]

. . .

I have said that there is rationing. I have noted that my insurance company has limited us to 5 ER visits each and I have noted that most doctors around here don't take Medicare (many don't take Medicaid either). Obamacare is going to make it so that ER visits are going to be the *only* way to see a doctor and yet there's a limitation? That in itself is rationing. If you can't see it, so be it. I do (and I daresay that most of America does too--since Obamacare is *very* unpopular and will become more so with the lack of doctors and the layoffs it causes and the cost.)

Enjoy it. You see I guess I'm luckier than most of you. Just like my elderly friend, a secular Carmelite said "I'm getting up in years." (Say, she's the one I was speaking about--the one whose treatment was changed by regulations.)

I'm not saying there is no rationing in the ACA. I'm saying rationing has existed for a long time. I realize the future of Medicare is uncertain. The limited funds will cause a problem regardless of the person who holds the office of President.

I have Medicare. I know doctors have been dropping Medicare patients for years and will continue to do so. I am also disabled. That combination puts me in a very vulnerable group.

My whole point is that people are making claims about the ACA and care rationing, as if they are new issues and everyone is suddenly upset.

Where is the outrage over what has been happening for years?

I'm also a retired healthcare professional. Do you have any idea how disturbing it is to have a private insurance company's onsite reviewer push for a termination of a patient's acute care and a move to hospice? It is one of the most appalling things I've encountered in my healthcare career--but ranks second to the fact that there are physicians who are their "gatekeepers."

Remember this link?

Hospice Patients Alliance “Lynching the Elderly and Disabled” Why We Need an Elder Justice Act
“Charles Phillips, MD reveals that large HMOs such as Kaiser and others are training their physicians as "gatekeepers" who deny effective treatment to patients in order to increase the corporation's and the physicians' income.”

Rationing care can be a result of limited funds, which is the case with Medicare and Medicaid, or it can be the result of greed and profit, as is so predominant in the private sector.

Anna

 

[AMDG]

Look Anna--I'm poor, elderly, (I guess I too could claim disabled--afterall just about everyone who no longer gets unemployment can and I *am* being treated for a chronic condition), I have one daughter on SSI, and another who is struggling to make ends meet (her husband is union and the union hurts them every step of the way) my veteran husband is older than 65 so the military medical care (he was promised for life) disappeared with that birthday, and in 2007, my Catholic mother in a Catholic hospice was "helped" to meet her maker when they chose to give her morphine without an IV. You don't have to show me links. I *know* we have lost our soul. I *know* that our problem has been our separation from our Creator. And that our problems with not caring, and breaking promises are all due to that.

You don't need to argue with me. I *know* this Obamacare is not helpful. I *know* this Obamacare will only be helpful for the young adults who are not sick. The elderly will simply be told "to take a pill". Obama doesn't think that's wrong. I *know* that Obamacare is *very* unpopular. And I *know* it will only make things worse. And that there are still six major problems with the program (besides the HHS lawsuits) If you want to argue, argue with the Cato Institute.

Enjoy your Obamacare. Of course your world will suddenly be gray (lack of doctors, insurance premiums skyrocketing, lack of employment but prices going out of sight to help pay for Obamacare, economy tanking but taxes raising astronomically, the IRS at your door, etc.)

 

[LoAmmi]

The elderly will simply be told "to take a pill". Obama doesn't think that's wrong.

Say the big lie over and over again. I'm sure it will make it true at some point.

 

[Anna Scott]

. . . .What are you making up now? I've never ever said that there are death squads. All that Obamacare has in it is the IPAB which is a 15 non-medical and non-elected group that is to decide if a treatment is "cost-effective". Also said that the Stimulus has another "cost-effective" board.

AMDG,

Where is your source?

From CMS:
The Affordable Care Act: Lowering Medicare Costs by Improving Care
Efforts Will Save Over $200 Billion for Taxpayers Through 2016, Nearly $60 Billion for Beneficiaries in traditional Medicare, Page 13

Controlling Costs and Reducing Red Tape in the Health Care System
Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB)

"Under the Affordable Care Act, IPAB is a fallback to Congress in ensuring Medicare remains solvent without shifting costs to beneficiaries or reducing the level of care that they receive. When Medicare growth per beneficiary exceeds a target (e.g., growth in nominal GDP per capita plus 1 percent starting in 2020), IPAB − an independent group of doctors, nurses, patients, and health care experts − will recommend to Congress policies to reduce the rate of growth to meet specified savings, while not harming beneficiaries’ access to needed services. Congress would consider IPAB’s recommendations or, if it disagrees, enact policies that achieve savings to hit the target. IPAB’s policies are only a backstop if Congress fails to control high Medicare cost growth. IPAB is prohibited from recommending changes that would ration care or increase costs for beneficiaries."
_________________________

Or you can read the ACA:
ACA:16 SEC. 3403. INDEPENDENT MEDICARE ADVISORY BOARD, Page 982

Page 986
‘‘(ii) The proposal shall not include
22 any recommendation to ration health care,
23 raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary pre24
miums under section 1818, 1818A, or 1839,
25 increase Medicare beneficiary cost-sharing
986
HR 3590 EAS/PP
1 (including deductibles, coinsurance, and co2
payments), or otherwise restrict benefits or
3 modify eligibility criteria.
4 ‘‘(iii) In the case of proposals

 

[Anna Scott]

Look Anna--I'm poor, elderly, (I guess I too could claim disabled--afterall just about everyone who no longer gets unemployment can and I *am* being treated for a chronic condition), I have one daughter on SSI, and another who is struggling to make ends meet (her husband is union and the union hurts them every step of the way) my veteran husband is older than 65 so the military medical care (he was promised for life) disappeared with that birthday, and in 2007, my Catholic mother in a Catholic hospice was "helped" to meet her maker when they chose to give her morphine without an IV. You don't have to show me links. I *know* we have lost our soul. I *know* that our problem has been our separation from our Creator. And that our problems with not caring, and breaking promises are all due to that.

You don't need to argue with me. I *know* this Obamacare is not helpful. I *know* this Obamacare will only be helpful for the young adults who are not sick. The elderly will simply be told "to take a pill". Obama doesn't think that's wrong. I *know* that Obamacare is *very* unpopular. And I *know* it will only make things worse. And that there are still six major problems with the program (besides the HHS lawsuits) If you want to argue, argue with the Cato Institute.

Enjoy your Obamacare. Of course your world will suddenly be gray (lack of doctors, insurance premiums skyrocketing, lack of employment but prices going out of sight to help pay for Obamacare, economy tanking but taxes raising astronomically, the IRS at your door, etc.)

AMDG,
I feel for you! Healthcare in this country is a mess. I agree that our problem is separation from our Creator. I applaud the Pope's call to ensure adequate healthcare, not only in this country, but around the world.

I just want to separate fact from fiction.

I'm not claiming ACA is the solution to all our problems. It may lead to our downfall. I can't see into the future, and I'm certainly not qualified to assess the economic impact of the Bill.

However, if you, or any of us, are going to criticize the Affordable Care Act, criticize it using facts from the Bill--not scare tactics that are made of fiction. I think that is a reasonable thing to ask.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

 

[AMDG]

For Pete's sake, I have been studying the awful, awful Obamacare since before it was passed and been with the Catholic campaigns against it too! I have been posting links (I guess y'all never read the blame things, because that's how y'all are acting now) from the Bishops, from the Cato Institute, from Heritage, from Red State, from Patriot.com, from the Hill, from the Beltway, from the National Center for Anaylisis and more. (You know it's not all that easy, I don't have the luxory of the easy "talking points" from Obama and his crew or the comedians too. Google and Yahoo are left leaning search engines and are known to even change words in a search for a particular article so only one point of view is given.)

I'll see if I still have a couple of articles for you. Of course, the major one that means the most to me is the fact that the Bishops are against this.

Oh and LoAmmi, I have posted the youtube of Obama saying "take a pill" once before, twice before, three times before. If you refuse to look, I surely can't help you but if you want to see it for real now you'll have to look it up yourself, because I feel that I have posted it enough times for you and now I think you don't really want to view it.

 

[AMDG]

Obamacare--Shortage of Doctors

Health Reform's Doctor Depression

BTW, the NCPA have a number of articles about healthcare and Obamacare particularly


Full List of Obamacare taxes

http://www.atr.org/full-list-obamacare-tax-hikes-a6996


Medical giant with dem ties terminates workers and cites obamacare

http://patriotupdate.com/32663/medical-giant-with-democrat-ties-terminates-workers-cites-obamacare

 

[dollarsbill]

Any more info on mandatory microchipping in the Health Care Bill?

 

[AMDG]

Any more info on mandatory microchipping in the Health Care Bill?

Have no idea (actually haven't read anything about it--but you seem to have.) The CBO (Congressional Budget Office--and I believe you can check that out at a .gov address) that said that Obamacare is going to cost 2.6 trillion, that 20 million will lose insurance because of Obamacare and all the articles citing the IPAB as a cost effective board haven't mentioned it. Perhaps you might enlighten the rest of us?

Of course the many times I've posted from http://americandoctors4truth.org/ have mentioned the CBO report as well as the looting of Medicare to the tune now of over 700 billion (great thinking Obama--rob Medicare when it's already going under, but then again Obama is also robbing the military healthcare insurance, Tricare.)

 

[dollarsbill]

Have no idea (actually haven't read anything about it--but you seem to have.) The CBO (Congressional Budget Office--and I believe you can check that out at a .gov address) that said that Obamacare is going to cost 2.6 trillion, that 20 million will lose insurance because of Obamacare and all the articles citing the IPAB as a cost effective board haven't mentioned it. Perhaps you might enlighten the rest of us?

Of course the many times I've posted from www.doctor4truth.com have mentioned the CBO report as well as the looting of Medicare to the tune now of over 700 million (great thinking Obama--rob Medicare when it's already going under, but then again Obama is also robbing the military healthcare insurance, Tricare.)

Some in CF have said it is included in the HCB. And rumors were all over the internet so it must be true

 

[Anna Scott]

For Pete's sake, I have been studying the awful, awful Obamacare since before it was passed and been with the Catholic campaigns against it too! I have been posting links (I guess y'all never read the blame things, because that's how y'all are acting now) from the Bishops, from the Cato Institute, from Heritage, from Red State, from Patriot.com, from the Hill, from the Beltway, from the National Center for Anaylisis and more. (You know it's not all that easy, I don't have the luxory of the easy "talking points" from Obama and his crew or the comedians too. Google and Yahoo are left leaning search engines and are known to even change words in a search for a particular article so only one point of view is given.)

I'll see if I still have a couple of articles for you. Of course, the major one that means the most to me is the fact that the Bishops are against this.

Oh and LoAmmi, I have posted the youtube of Obama saying "take a pill" once before, twice before, three times before. If you refuse to look, I surely can't help you but if you want to see it for real now you'll have to look it up yourself, because I feel that I have posted it enough times for you and now I think you don't really want to view it.

AMDG,

If you are rejecting the Affordable Care Act, because the Catholic Church is against it; then I understand that you must, as a Catholic, submit to your Church. I respect that.

So, how do Catholics believe our Government can accomplish what the Catholic Church has called governments to do?

Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people
Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone read the Pope's message. So, adding what the Pope said and what the Cardinal said: healthcare is one of the inalienable rights of man, justice in healthcare should be a priority of Governments and international institutions, Governments should take care of all citizens, especially children, the elderly, the poor and immigrants, and Governments are obligated to adopt the proper legislative, administrative and financial measures to provide such care along with other basic conditions that promote good health, such as food security, water and housing.

Just wondering.

Anna