Why I Am A Continuationist

[Guojing]

That section of scripture is absolutely true.

That word "gift" is Charisma, the same Greek word used later on in chapter 12 about the Spiritual gifts. The idea that the compilation of NT writings of our early Christians thereby eliminates the church age and it's gifts is a bunch of made up junk.

In Greek, the same word can mean different things, depending on the context.

For example, covenant and testament both have the same Greek word.

 

[Guojing]

The "gift" referred to in the verse points to the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12.

So do you still agree with enoob that gifts mean sign gifts, or have I misunderstood your post, that you do not share his definition?

 

[swordsman1]

1 Cor 1:7 is no proof of continuationism. It says the Corinthians came behind in no gift, and they were waiting for the coming of Jesus. But there is no "until" between the two, which folk often insert themselves.

Nor is Eph 4:11-13. If is was then we would still have apostles. Even most continuists agree that apostles (in the biblical sense of the word) have ceased. "Apostles" in the NT always refers to the band of miracle-working, scripture-writing, eye-witness, authoritative spokesmen for Christ.

The thing to note about Eph 4 is that it is not the gifts listed in v11 that are said to continue, but rather the equipping of the church which will continue. The giving of the gifts in v11 is actually in the past tense so Paul is referring to people who had already been given those gifts, not those in the future. Equipping the church however is in the present tense. Even in the first century apostles were a rare breed, and most churches never had personal access to an apostle. They equipped the churches via their writings. And the church today is still being equipped by the past ministry of the apostles and prophets via their writings. This passage says nothing about the continuation of those gifts, only that equipping the church would continue.

 

[Guojing]

1 Cor 1:7 is no proof of continuationism. It says the Corinthians came behind in no gift, and they were waiting for the coming of Jesus. But there is no "until" between the two, which folk often insert themselves.

Nor is Eph 4:11-13. If is was then we would still have apostles. Even most continuists agree that apostles (in the biblical sense of the word) have ceased. "Apostles" in the NT always refers to the band of miracle-working, scripture-writing, eye-witness, authoritative spokesmen for Christ.

The thing to note about Eph 4 is that it is not the gifts listed in v11 that are said to continue, but rather the equipping of the church which will continue. The giving of the gifts in v11 is actually in the past tense so Paul is referring to people who had already been given those gifts, not those in the future. Equipping the church however is in the present tense. Even in the first century apostles were a rare breed, and most churches never had personal access to an apostle. They equipped the churches via their writings. And the church today is still being equipped by the past ministry of the apostles and prophets via their writings. This passage says nothing about the continuation of those gifts, only that equipping the church would continue.

When people use Romans 11:29 to argue for continuationism, you know they are clutching at straws

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So do you still agree with enoob that gifts mean sign gifts, or have I misunderstood your post, that you do not share his definition?

Paul does not describe any of the nine gifts of the Spirit as "sign gifts". He defines the gifts as those for the building up of the body of Christ. The gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 are directed to the body of Christ and not as signs to unbelievers. Because the body of Christ still needs building up, and that Christian believers still need to progress to maturity and the full knowledge of the Son of God, the gifts are still needed to equip them. Believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit and His gifts are included. To say that the gifts ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age, is to say that the Holy Spirit ceased working with the body of Christ to build it up and to work with believers to bring them to full maturity in Christ. We can't separate the Holy Spirit and His gifts. Those churches that a refusing to have anything to do with the gifts of the Spirit are also denying the participation of the Holy Spirit. They are merely pretending to have the Holy Spirit working with them, when in fact, they are operating in the flesh and doing things according to their own strengths. This is why true conversions to Christ as opposed to people 'getting religion" are rare. Because these church know that they are declining, they are using the world's methods to get backsides on seats in their meetings. But the Scripture says that the flesh profits nothing, and those who are friends of the world are no friends of God. Also, there is a serious Scripture that, speaking about having the Holy Spirit, says, "Those who have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His." That should take honest believers in tears of repentance to God's throne of grace.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In Greek, the same word can mean different things, depending on the context.

For example, covenant and testament both have the same Greek word.

Avoidance. Sidestepping what the Scripture is saying to support your own premise, which you have held to for some years without change.

 

[Guojing]

Paul does not describe any of the nine gifts of the Spirit as "sign gifts". He defines the gifts as those for the building up of the body of Christ. The gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 are directed to the body of Christ and not as signs to unbelievers. Because the body of Christ still needs building up, and that Christian believers still need to progress to maturity and the full knowledge of the Son of God, the gifts are still needed to equip them. Believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit and His gifts are included. To say that the gifts ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age, is to say that the Holy Spirit ceased working with the body of Christ to build it up and to work with believers to bring them to full maturity in Christ. We can't separate the Holy Spirit and His gifts. Those churches that a refusing to have anything to do with the gifts of the Spirit are also denying the participation of the Holy Spirit. They are merely pretending to have the Holy Spirit working with them, when in fact, they are operating in the flesh and doing things according to their own strengths. This is why true conversions to Christ as opposed to people 'getting religion" are rare. Because these church know that they are declining, they are using the world's methods to get backsides on seats in their meetings. But the Scripture says that the flesh profits nothing, and those who are friends of the world are no friends of God. Also, there is a serious Scripture that, speaking about having the Holy Spirit, says, "Those who have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His." That should take honest believers in tears of repentance to God's throne of grace.

I see, alright since you don't agree with his definition, I can understand the difference in interpretation.

 

[ARBITER01]

In Greek, the same word can mean different things, depending on the context.

For example, covenant and testament both have the same Greek word.

Are we deflecting?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm wondering if any of the participants in this thread believe that God is continuing to give new revelation that is intended to be normative for all Christians today? If you do not believe that, then some gifts have ceased. If you do believe it, then all the gifts have continued. And we really should have apostles and prophets and seers and teachers who are inspired by God and whose words should be added to Holy Scripture. If you believe it, how do you close the door on a Joseph Smith, or a Mary Baker Eddie, or an Ellen White. These were all people who claimed to receive revelation from God that is normative, that Christians should follow, and that Christians ought to believe.

 

[Guojing]

Are we deflecting?

I am stating a fact.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm wondering if any of the participants in this thread believe that God is continuing to give new revelation that is intended to be normative for all Christians today? If you do not believe that, then some gifts have ceased. If you do believe it, then all the gifts have continued. And we really should have apostles and prophets and seers and teachers who are inspired by God and whose words should be added to Holy Scripture. If you believe it, how do you close the door on a Joseph Smith, or a Mary Baker Eddie, or an Ellen White. These were all people who claimed to receive revelation from God that is normative, that Christians should follow, and that Christians ought to believe.

That's a very good question from someone who doesn't really believe in their continuation, so let me try to answer that for you,....

When you say revelation, I'm going to assume that you mean predicative scripture/writings. If that is what we are talking about (correct me if I'm wrong), then the gift that was utilized by GOD for that through prophets was the revelation gift called the word of wisdom. After some experience over the years from The Holy Spirit and study of this gift, this is my definition of it,....


4. THE WORD OF WISDOM

A. DEFINITION - The gift of the word of wisdom is a Spiritual revelation of a small measure of GOD’s infinite wisdom or purpose and will into the believer’s spirit by The Holy Spirit. It is a “word” of wisdom, not the gift of wisdom.

B. APPLICATION - The gift can operate in 3 areas through a believer:

1) By what GOD has said - In this capacity, The Holy Spirit utters passages of scripture from GOD for a particular circumstance or event. We can see the specific application of this gift in operation when satan tried to tempt Jesus by using the word of GOD against Him. The Holy Spirit uttered specific passages of scripture through Him, and Jesus easily defeated satan and his lies.

2) By what GOD says - In this capacity, The Holy Spirit utters distinct wisdom and truth into a given situation. We see a definitive moment of this when Jesus said: “Render the things of Caesar unto Caesar, and the things of GOD unto GOD.” The divine wisdom and truth uttered by The Holy Spirit instantly broke the trap that had been set for Him by the questioners.

3) By what GOD says will be - In this capacity, the gift of the word of wisdom is utilized by The Holy Spirit to speak forth predictive utterance of GOD's divine will in futuristic events. It will be a revelation of the purpose of GOD concerning people, things, or events in the future. This predictive portion of the gift is very specific to a prophet’s office.

C. METHODS - It is seen in operation during inspired utterance of The Holy Spirit through our spirit in human languages, and by revelation through a believer by audible voice from GOD within our spirit. It was specifically used by GOD to inspire scripture written by the OT Prophets. This gift is always operated by the will of The Holy Spirit, and cannot be activated by the believer's will or personal faith.


Since I'm being particular about scripture writing, this gift was limited to just the office of a prophet/prophetess for that purpose. There were different prophets in the OT, ones that operated more in the power gifts that we read about, ones that operated more in the revelation gifts, ie letting kings know what their enemies were doing, etc. But some prophets were called just for scripture writing by GOD utilizing this particular gift.

I would consider such a person absolutely rare nowadays. There can be prophets in the body of Christ, but one that GOD would use to give out new scripture revelation??? Very, very rare, if it's even possible. To be honest, I'm not sure GOD has any plans on giving out any new revelation, but the office is listed amongst the other offices that are available to the body.

How would I know if we had such a prophet giving out new revelation nowadays? There writings would have the quickening of The Holy Spirit in them, but mostly they would find agreement in many areas with the other sections of known scripture. There wouldn't be any contradictions or conflict with other scripture writings.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That's a very good question from someone who doesn't really believe in their continuation, so let me try to answer that for you,....

When you say revelation, I'm going to assume that you mean predicative scripture/writings. If that is what we are talking about (correct me if I'm wrong), then the gift that was utilized by GOD for that through prophets was the revelation gift called the word of wisdom. After some experience over the years from The Holy Spirit and study of this gift, this is my definition of it,....


4. THE WORD OF WISDOM

A. DEFINITION - The gift of the word of wisdom is a Spiritual revelation of a small measure of GOD’s infinite wisdom or purpose and will into the believer’s spirit by The Holy Spirit. It is a “word” of wisdom, not the gift of wisdom.

B. APPLICATION - The gift can operate in 3 areas through a believer:

1) By what GOD has said - In this capacity, The Holy Spirit utters passages of scripture from GOD for a particular circumstance or event. We can see the specific application of this gift in operation when satan tried to tempt Jesus by using the word of GOD against Him. The Holy Spirit uttered specific passages of scripture through Him, and Jesus easily defeated satan and his lies.

2) By what GOD says - In this capacity, The Holy Spirit utters distinct wisdom and truth into a given situation. We see a definitive moment of this when Jesus said: “Render the things of Caesar unto Caesar, and the things of GOD unto GOD.” The divine wisdom and truth uttered by The Holy Spirit instantly broke the trap that had been set for Him by the questioners.

3) By what GOD says will be - In this capacity, the gift of the word of wisdom is utilized by The Holy Spirit to speak forth predictive utterance of GOD's divine will in futuristic events. It will be a revelation of the purpose of GOD concerning people, things, or events in the future. This predictive portion of the gift is very specific to a prophet’s office.

C. METHODS - It is seen in operation during inspired utterance of The Holy Spirit through our spirit in human languages, and by revelation through a believer by audible voice from GOD within our spirit. It was specifically used by GOD to inspire scripture written by the OT Prophets. This gift is always operated by the will of The Holy Spirit, and cannot be activated by the believer's will or personal faith.


Since I'm being particular about scripture writing, this gift was limited to just the office of a prophet/prophetess for that purpose. There were different prophets in the OT, ones that operated more in the power gifts that we read about, ones that operated more in the revelation gifts, ie letting kings know what their enemies were doing, etc. But some prophets were called just for scripture writing by GOD utilizing this particular gift.

I would consider such a person absolutely rare nowadays. There can be prophets in the body of Christ, but one that GOD would use to give out new scripture revelation??? Very, very rare, if it's even possible. To be honest, I'm not sure GOD has any plans on giving out any new revelation, but the office is listed amongst the other offices that are available to the body.

How would I know if we had such a prophet giving out new revelation nowadays? There writings would have the quickening of The Holy Spirit in them, but mostly they would find agreement in many areas with the other sections of known scripture. There wouldn't be any contradictions or conflict with other scripture writings.

If I may put a hypothetical in front of you.

"I am Phillip, the Lord has spoken to me. He gave to me this message to say to you, 'This is the word of the Lord' It is I, the Lord who speak. The day is coming, and it will come soon when I judge the Earth and all who are in it. I will judge with truth and integrity. I will weigh in the balance the things that men have done. I will judge how men have treated the poor among them. I will judge the Earth for the way men have handled the land and the creatures that live upon it, for these too are my creations, and I will have them protected and preserved as my creations. I will judge men for their cruelty. I will judge the world for its implacability. My judgement is swift and true, like an arrow from the bow. But my mercy endures forever. Turn from wickedness and do good, ask me and I shall heal your lands, seek me and I shall be found. It is the Lord who speaks'".​

This is only a hypothetical I make no claim to any inspiration of any kind. Treated as a sample a warning sample. Think also that there are messages of encouragement and there are messages of teaching. All of them coming from the same hand. What do you think is a proper response to a message like that? If you heard it spoken in one of your churches, would you accept it?

 

[ARBITER01]

If I may put a hypothetical in front of you.

"I am Phillip, the Lord has spoken to me. He gave to me this message to say to you, 'This is the word of the Lord' It is I, the Lord who speak. The day is coming, and it will come soon when I judge the Earth and all who are in it. I will judge with truth and integrity. I will weigh in the balance the things that men have done. I will judge how men have treated the poor among them. I will judge the Earth for the way men have handled the land and the creatures that live upon it, for these too are my creations, and I will have them protected and preserved as my creations. I will judge men for their cruelty. I will judge the world for its implacability. My judgement is swift and true, like an arrow from the bow. But my mercy endures forever. Turn from wickedness and do good, ask me and I shall heal your lands, seek me and I shall be found. It is the Lord who speaks'".​

This is only a hypothetical I make no claim to any inspiration of any kind. Treated as a sample a warning sample. Think also that there are messages of encouragement and there are messages of teaching. All of them coming from the same hand. What do you think is a proper response to a message like that? If you heard it spoken in one of your churches, would you accept it?

I like that hypothetical.

I'm assuming that you mean a corporate message that was spoken to an assembly? If so, it would be rejected by my church,.... and here is the reason why,....

Corporate speaking is pretty much for known members in our church. We know who normally gives a tongues message and who gives an interpretation of that message. They are known church members of our body of believers. Their messages they give tend to provide the Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort that we expect to be in the message from The Holy Spirit according to scripture.

If GOD was to provide a prophet/prophetess to our body, any of their messages would be subject to corporate judging by the rest of the assembly. It wouldn't take very long to weed out the false, and it wouldn't take very long to know the real.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I like that hypothetical.

I'm assuming that you mean a corporate message that was spoken to an assembly? If so, it would be rejected by my church,.... and here is the reason why,....

Corporate speaking is pretty much for known members in our church. We know who normally gives a tongues message and who gives an interpretation of that message. They are known church members of our body of believers. Their messages they give tend to provide the Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort that we expect to be in the message from The Holy Spirit according to scripture.

If GOD was to provide a prophet/prophetess to our body, any of their messages would be subject to corporate judging by the rest of the assembly. It wouldn't take very long to weed out the false, and it wouldn't take very long to know the real.

It's odd that you say, your church would reject such a message. Because nearly every word of it is taken from scripture. Of course, I took the Liberty of rearranging things. but the idea of a judgement coming from God for the unrighteous deeds of men for the destruction of the land, for their cruelty to the poor and for all the other things that people do in greed and selfishness, is a theme that is often repeated in both Testaments.

 

[ARBITER01]

It's odd that you say, your church would reject such a message. Because nearly every word of it is taken from scripture. Of course, I took the Liberty of rearranging things. but the idea of a judgement coming from God for the unrighteous deeds of men for the destruction of the land, for their cruelty to the poor and for all the other things that people do in greed and selfishness, is a theme that is often repeated in both Testaments.

Messages by The Holy Spirit in the corporate assembly normally revolve around Edification, Exhortation (Encouragement), and Comfort nowadays, like scripture says they should be.

We are a little bit more careful about allowing anyone just to come into our assembly trying to speak some made up nonsense that isn't inspired by The Holy Spirit at that moment. Any assembly should be careful if they are really operating with The Holy Spirit.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Messages by The Holy Spirit in the corporate assembly normally revolve around Edification, Exhortation (Encouragement), and Comfort nowadays, like scripture says they should be.

We are a little bit more careful about allowing anyone just to come into our assembly trying to speak some made up nonsense that isn't inspired by The Holy Spirit at that moment. Any assembly should be careful if they are really operating with The Holy Spirit.

So you're really careful to exclude any messages that don't conform to edification, exhortation and comfort. And you base that on a verse in first Corinthians. Even a message that is taken from scripture that uses the words of Scripture and is not conformant to the formula that you've given would be rejected? I don't know what to think about that. It is as if you're implying that your particular church is wiser than the Scriptures, that your leaders know better than the scriptures what should be said. I'm sure you don't intend that. But it does sound that way.

In my parish church that message would not be accepted as a revelation from God. But the words would be sifted and where they are conformant to scripture, they would be praised as accurate. It would be the claim that "Philip" made, namely, that he was not speaking on his own authority, but it was the Lord who was speaking. That is what would be questioned.

As controversial as this may sound, even if Satan himself were to say something using exactly the words of Jesus spoke on some specific occasion, then even Satan's words would still be as true as Jesus words. It is, the content that matters the delivery has connotations, and that Satan would deliver anything has the connotation that you ought to be very, very careful about what he is implying with the words he is using. So the hypothetical Philip used the phrase that "it is the Lord who speaks". That would make people take a step back, because that claim is very grand.

Had the hypothetical "Philip" simply said, "I have read the scriptures, and the Lord has placed on my heart, by means that I do not fully understand, this warning message". Then the message would be better received.

 

[enoob57]

We are a little bit more careful about allowing anyone just to come into our assembly trying to speak some made up nonsense that isn't inspired by The Holy Spirit at that moment.

How is this determined?

 

[ARBITER01]

So you're really careful to exclude any messages that don't conform to edification, exhortation and comfort. And you base that on a verse in first Corinthians. Even a message that is taken from scripture that uses the words of Scripture and is not conformant to the formula that you've given would be rejected?

Yes.

Messages by The Holy Spirit in the assembly are on the spot inspirational, not piecemealed together like a wannabe sermon. A message like that would not be edifying to our human spirit either since it would not be The Holy Spirit speaking it by inspiration through that person. We don't have people preparing prophesying type messages during the week from scripture to be spoken in the assembly claiming them to be new revelation from The Holy Spirit.

I don't know what to think about that. It is as if you're implying that your particular church is wiser than the Scriptures, that your leaders know better than the scriptures what should be said. I'm sure you don't intend that. But it does sound that way.

I guess you wouldn't find our church on youtube doing unscriptural things, huh?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So you're really careful to exclude any messages that don't conform to edification, exhortation and comfort. And you base that on a verse in first Corinthians. Even a message that is taken from scripture that uses the words of Scripture and is not conformant to the formula that you've given would be rejected? I don't know what to think about that. It is as if you're implying that your particular church is wiser than the Scriptures, that your leaders know better than the scriptures what should be said. I'm sure you don't intend that. But it does sound that way.

In my parish church that message would not be accepted as a revelation from God. But the words would be sifted and where they are conformant to scripture, they would be praised as accurate. It would be the claim that "Philip" made, namely, that he was not speaking on his own authority, but it was the Lord who was speaking. That is what would be questioned.

As controversial as this may sound, even if Satan himself were to say something using exactly the words of Jesus spoke on some specific occasion, then even Satan's words would still be as true as Jesus words. It is, the content that matters the delivery has connotations, and that Satan would deliver anything has the connotation that you ought to be very, very careful about what he is implying with the words he is using. So the hypothetical Philip used the phrase that "it is the Lord who speaks". That would make people take a step back, because that claim is very grand.

Had the hypothetical "Philip" simply said, "I have read the scriptures, and the Lord has placed on my heart, by means that I do not fully understand, this warning message". Then the message would be better received.

During the 1980s -90s a NAR prophet named Bob Jones went into different churches without invitation and gave prophecies and shared revelations that turned out to be false and caused churches to be seriously harmed and in some cases destroyed. Eventually he was discredited because it was discovered that he was sexually inappropriate with young women whom he invited into his counselling room. The tragedy was that these churches really thought he was a man of God and his prophecies and revelations were from God. This is the danger of accepting prophetic words and revelations from someone we don't know, and not searching the Scriptures whether they are of God or not. We now have another scandal with a prominent ministry in Kansas City where a leader leader, preacher and prophet has been discovered leading a double life for decades, grooming young women for sexual purposes, thus making all his prophecies and revelations tainted and therefore false. Imagine the shock of finding that three decades of prophecy and revelation was nothing but fiction and lies, coming from a fellow's sinful flesh and not from God at all. We would feel sorry for those godly people who thought he was of God and willingly obeyed the directive prophecies, when all the time they were following lies and deceit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Messages by The Holy Spirit in the corporate assembly normally revolve around Edification, Exhortation (Encouragement), and Comfort nowadays, like scripture says they should be.

We are a little bit more careful about allowing anyone just to come into our assembly trying to speak some made up nonsense that isn't inspired by The Holy Spirit at that moment. Any assembly should be careful if they are really operating with The Holy Spirit.

I woke up in the early hours and couldn't get back to sleep again, so I turned on my Voice Speak software and listening to a bit of "The Christian in Complete Armour" by William Gurnall. He was speaking about pride of gifts and pride of grace. He says that when someone is gifted and proud of it, the exercise of the gift [whatever it is] is tainted through the person's pride. As soon as a person announces, "I have a gift and you should listen to me", it should be seen as false, because it is pointing back to the gifted person and not to Christ. He said that the gifts are not for the self-grandizement of the gifted person, but for the building up of believers through faith in Christ. In other words the exercise of the gifts is not to build up our reputation of being at the cutting edge of what God is doing, but to bring us in humility to Christ. He said that a lesser gifted believer who is humble before God is much more acceptable to God than a highly gifted person who is proud of his gifting.

we can see this on Youtube where people give meaningless word salad prophecies to give the impression that they are favoured of God and point to themselves as prophets with an ear to His voice; and when they are corrected, they accuse the person correcting them of being either not hearing God's voice, being cessationist, or even having a demon (which actually happened in a meeting when a godly pastor tried to correct the false teacher). Pride of gift, especially with prophecy is shown when the person prophesying refuses to allow his prophetic words to be judged by others, and say that his prophecies are so clearly the voice of God that they don't need to be judged. Pride makes a person believe that they are so close to God, hearing His voice, that others must accept his authority, submit to him, and risk God's judgment on them if they dare "touch God's anointed" by criticising him. That is, "I have the anointing, therefore obey what I say". As soon as you hear this, avoid him because he has pride of gifts. There is no such thing as "an anointing" on any specific person. The real anointing is the indwelling Holy Spirit which we all received when we received Christ as our Saviour.