Why have Liberal Westerners Turned Their Backs On The Jewish State?

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Israel is not America's friend

#1: How many Israeli spies have been caught in the US? Since September 11, 2001 the US government has detained 60 Israeli spies in the US. Fox News and CNN have both reported on this in the past. See Fox News special on Israeli spies in the US (on youtube).

#2: You ever wonder why the Chinese fighters are almost as good as the US? Because Israeli sold the Chinese the blueprints to the F-16 in the early 1990's. They saw the US as a declining power and tried to woo the Chinese. When that failed, they came back to us apologetically. With friends like those, who needs enemies? Again, this info is easily verifiable by very reliable sources (Look up the J10 Chinese fighter and Israel's involvement)

#3: JONATHAN JAY POLLARD:The worst breach of US national security occurred when this little scumbag spying for Israel stole some of our most important classified weapons information. The Israeli government and Israeli prime minister are putting great pressure on the US to release him, despite the damage he did to the US.

Everything I just mentioned can be easily verified by mainstream sources. Do your research.

Now, even though I stuck to facts, I will be accused of being an anti-Semite simply because I dared to question our "friendship" with Israel. This is why I hate talking about Israel, because the minute you dare to question the slightest thing about their foreign policy, espionage campaigns against the US, or their selling of our weapons technology to hostile nations, you know that pro-Israel supporters who can't articulate a valid response will just start to throw the anti-Semite card.

Personally, I don't hate any particular Jewish person. My only problem is with the actual government of Israel. It is a rotten government. Not to mention a racist government. Did you know that in Israel a non-Jew can't marry a Jew? It is against Israeli law.

 

[mindlight]

#2: You ever wonder why the Chinese fighters are almost as good as the US? Because Israeli sold the Chinese the blueprints to the F-16 in the early 1990's. They saw the US as a declining power and tried to woo the Chinese. When that failed, they came back to us apologetically. With friends like those, who needs enemies? Again, this info is easily verifiable by very reliable sources (Look up the J10 Chinese fighter and Israel's involvement)

Asia Times

This probably happened but is actually illustrative of the fact that China is still along way behind the US. The J10 is not even a good copy of the F16 with a poor saftey record for instance. It's rumoured that the Chinese got a F16 from Pakistan but it also seems clear that Israeli engineers were involved who had previously worked on the Lavi programme.

I think it is seriously careless of Israel to sell cutting edge technology to the USAs restricted list of countries as that is effectively biting the hand that feeds you. Also China has no interest or advantage in a relationship with Israel once it has no more American secrets to sell while America has deeper reasons to value the security of Israel e.g Nrs of Jews in USA, conservative evangelical views on Israel.

China has more long term interest in Arab oil in fact. So if this was an Israeli government decision it was a serious mistake by the person(s) who made it.

This was an old example so I am hoping Israel has learnt its lesson on this.

 

[Drunk On Love]

F-16 is old school for the Chinese now. They have a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter in flight testing . the J-20. Not bad for spending a pittance on defense compared with the US.

The Real Purpose of the J-20 Chinese Stealth Fighter - YouTube

J-20 high speed testing, April 2011 - YouTube
China Tests Stealth Fighter During U.S. Visit - YouTube

 

[mindlight]

#3: JONATHAN JAY POLLARD:The worst breach of US national security occurred when this little scumbag spying for Israel stole some of our most important classified weapons information. The Israeli government and Israeli prime minister are putting great pressure on the US to release him, despite the damage he did to the US.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

I am a little mystified by the political support in Israel for this spy. Does Netanyahu gain from appearing to be a strong man who will not kowtow to his strongest ally. If so then I think this is a failing in the Israeli political culture and deceived to a dangerous degree.

Pollard is an unattractive character from the info available who was paid for what he did and in that he gave or attempted to give secrets to other countries including South Africa and Pakistan it seems clear that his motives were not just about supporting Israel - indeed if the Pakistan angle is true they were probably counter to Israels interests.

I doubt if he remains a security threat as his secrets are out of date. He and other Israeli spies are eroding American trust. However if these secrets are used only for Israeli security that's one level - if they are passed on that is a totally different thing.

There are official channels of support where information crucial to Israels interests are passed on by the Americans. These seem to work as Israels security has been maintained. This spy game with the US is probably contrary to Israels national interest in my view.

 

[mindlight]

F-16 is old school for the Chinese now. They have a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter in flight testing . The J-20. Not bad for spending a pittance on defense compared with the US.

Agreed on the F16 even if the Israelis did sell the secrets it was a low tech version and old technology at that when they did. It is easier to spend less on technology when you steal the designs and when others have already demonstrated how it works.

The raptor has been used in combat. Chinese fighters are that only in name.

The rumours on the J-20 is that the design specs were stolen for this also. Given that the Raptor first flew in 1990 and has been in active service for 6 years the Chinese are beginners on this one. The US is already at work on 6th generation designs. The J20 reeks of politics and seems more like a technology demo to me for the Chinese defence industry. In terms of quality, the experience and handling of the Americans the Chinese are way behind.

The Americans should be more worried about the anticarrier missle technology the Chinese have been working with.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

However if these secrets are used only for Israeli security that's one level - if they are passed on that is a totally different thing.

Nope - to share any classified information with anybody who isn't authorized access to it is a threat to national security. Unless someone needs to know it in order to perform their duties, they don't get to know. Even the President of the United States is not allowed access to any military secret simply because he's the President.

 

[Dale]

Daniel25 in post #2:
"This guy has been smoking too much rand. Israel is pretty much the worst american ally in the history of our nation. They make pakistan seem useful."

Really? Are you saying that Israel is a worse ally than South Vietnam?

I assume that you don't realize that Israeli intelligence has been extremely useful to the U.S. They provided a great deal of help after the September 11 attacks, for instance.

Maybe you could explain how an ally that requires ZERO American troops to defend it is our worst ally. That sounds like out best ally to me.

We have troops in Germany, in Japan, in South Korea, and numerous other places in the world. Israel has been through several wars and been attacked many times since 1948. They've never needed one platoon of Marines or one platoon of Green Berets to help them through it. Doesn't that count for something?

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[Drunk On Love]

It's not going into service until 2018. I wouldn't want to get in a dog fight against a f-22 in one of them either. An f-16, f-18, ... though? Sure.

 

[Dale]

Miami Marlins 2012 in post #21:
<<Israel is not America's friend

#1: How many Israeli spies have been caught in the US? Since September 11, 2001 the US government has detained 60 Israeli spies in the US. Fox News and CNN have both reported on this in the past. See Fox News special on Israeli spies in the US (on youtube).>>

also: "Everything I just mentioned can be easily verified by mainstream sources. Do your research."




December 12, 2001

Fox News Recycles Bogus anti-Israel Story




&#8220;In a deeply flawed report aired December 11th on Brit Hume&#8217;s Special Report, Fox News correspondent Carl Cameron alleged, without naming a single source, that some of the roughly 60 Israelis arrested in law enforcement sweeps since the September terror attacks are suspected of being intelligence operatives engaged, among other things, in spying on Arabs living in the United States. &#8221;


Also,
&#8220;These charges are arrant nonsense unworthy of the usually reliable Fox News. This is especially true because Cameron was well aware that similar allegations against detained Israelis have been shot down as baseless by no less an authority than Attorney General John Ashcroft. &#8221;




A Federal Judge sound no evidence of any danger to national securtiy.


&#8220;In another deceptive omission, Cameron neglected to mention the judge&#8217;s finding, instead portraying the young Israelis &#8211; who were working in mall kiosks selling cheap wind-up helicopter toys &#8211; as nefarious Mossad spies.&#8221;


Link
CAMERA: Fox News Recycles Bogus anti-Israel Story




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[Drunk On Love]

Camera is even less trustworthy than FOX news so I'm really in a pickle as to which to believe.

 

[Miami Marlins 2012]

Maybe you could explain how an ally that requires ZERO American troops to defend it is our worst ally. That sounds like out best ally to me.

Not if the war hawks get their way. We will be spending a Trillion Dollars and thousands of American lives in another pointless war in the Middle East when Israel pushes us to war with Iran.

And just because we don't have an official military presence in Israel, do not kid yourself into believing that they require nothing from us.

Not content with spying on us constantly, they also extract Billions of US Dollars in "foreign aid" from us every year. Never mind the fact that Israel is a rich and developed country, we must still send them Billions of those Dollars that we do not have, and thus must borrow from China and others.

 

[mindlight]

Nope - to share any classified information with anybody who isn't authorized access to it is a threat to national security. Unless someone needs to know it in order to perform their duties, they don't get to know. Even the President of the United States is not allowed access to any military secret simply because he's the President.

It is not in Israels interest to spy on the USA in my view but there are different levels of seriousness to disclosures depending on who knows what. Its better Israel knows something than Iran for instance.

 

[Dale]

Not if the war hawks get their way. We will be spending a Trillion Dollars and thousands of American lives in another pointless war in the Middle East when Israel pushes us to war with Iran.

And just because we don't have an official military presence in Israel, do not kid yourself into believing that they require nothing from us.

Not content with spying on us constantly, they also extract Billions of US Dollars in "foreign aid" from us every year. Never mind the fact that Israel is a rich and developed country, we must still send them Billions of those Dollars that we do not have, and thus must borrow from China and others.

You're repeating the lie that I just disproved.

Apparently you hate Israel because of wild speculation that our alliance with Israel might get us into a war.

Does it occur to you that a nuclear-armed Iran is a serious menace, with or without Israel?


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[Dale]

Still on the subject of alleged &#8220;Israeli spies&#8221; during the 9/11 time period ...
The following comment is from a different source and discusses a story that overlaps the one I passed on earlier.


This source simply finds that the story of Israeli students being spies in the US simply makes no sense. In addition, a figure connected with Israeli intelligence warned the US about some of the activities of these student-age tourists.




&#8220;Carrying drugs. Passport irregularities. Pestering DEA agents. Perhaps &#8220;diagramming the layout of a federal facility&#8221;. How does any of this relate to an attempt to monitor Al Qaeda agents? It makes little sense to us.&#8221;
&#8220;As reported by I&NS Intelligence officer Omar N. Nuri, ASHKENAZI stated he was a former Israeli intelligence officer, and was now traveling to "enjoy life". He claimed to have been in the U.S. in April 2000, when he was involved in a car accident in South Carolina. The purpose of this trip was to finalize the case with his attorney and to receive medical treatment. ASHKEHAZI volunteered information that a fraud scheme involving Israeli nationals was taking place in the U.S. He stated that young male and female Israelis are being recruited in Israel to enter the U.S. with B-1/B-2 tourist visas and be employed as door-to-door salesmen of paintings that are shipped to the U.S. from Israel. He claimed that one of the individuals involved in this is "Mikaeel" (sic) and is present in Texas operating this business. (See above paragraphs regarding Michael CALMANOVIC). He stated the Israelis usually operate in Texas, New York, Atlanta, Georgia, Washington, and possibly other states.&#8221;


Link:
Israeli Art Student Spies




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[disciple2011]

You're repeating the lie that I just disproved.

Apparently you hate Israel because of wild speculation that our alliance with Israel might get us into a war.

Does it occur to you that a nuclear-armed Iran is a serious menace, with or without Israel?


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Is a nuclear-armed Pakistan a threat when it has now 40% of its seats in government that are for the Taliban?

Because they have the weapons and they are radicalising more and more everyday.

Do you honestly think any Muslim would use a nuke on a nation that anywhere you throw one is too close to one of their holy places?

Logic must be used in this matter. It is illogical to risk Jerusalem.

 

[Drunk On Love]

It's no more a menace than a nuclear armed Israel. Israel has a worse record of constant warfare than Iran.

 

[kiwimac]

You're repeating the lie that I just disproved.

Apparently you hate Israel because of wild speculation that our alliance with Israel might get us into a war.

Does it occur to you that a nuclear-armed Iran is a serious menace, with or without Israel?


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Iran does not have Nuclear weapons. Does it occur to you that a nuclear-armed Israel is a serious menace?

 

[Dale]

Iran does not have Nuclear weapons. Does it occur to you that a nuclear-armed Israel is a serious menace?

No. I never dreamed that anyone would say anything so absurd.

I don't believe that Israel admits to having nuclear weapons but it is widely believed that Israel does. It is widely believed that Israel has had nuclear weapons since the 1960's. If so, they have never threatened anyone with them.



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[Dale]

Is a nuclear-armed Pakistan a threat when it has now 40% of its seats in government that are for the Taliban?

Because they have the weapons and they are radicalising more and more everyday.

Do you honestly think any Muslim would use a nuke on a nation that anywhere you throw one is too close to one of their holy places?

Logic must be used in this matter. It is illogical to risk Jerusalem.

Moslem terrorists have never shown any trace of logic since this dispute began. They have always been willing to kill their own people just to have the chance to complain about it.


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[Drunk On Love]

I don't believe that Israel admits to having nuclear weapons

The Israeli government didn't have to. It was released by Israeli whistle blowers and then Jimmy Carter really let the cat out of the bag and told the world the exact number. He said they had 150 nuclear weapons.

If so, they have never threatened anyone with them.

Nor has Iran threatened anyone with nuclear attacks. In fact they denied that they were even building nuclear weapons in the first place.