Why Election based on foreseen faith isn't scriptural

[FreeGrace2]

Watch out now.. They will tell you 1 Peter 1:2 says election is by foreknowledge..

Please explain what 1 Peter 1:2 does say then.

Thanks.

 

[Thistle]

The reason that election cannot be based on unforeseen faith is found in Romans 9:8-13.

In this passage Paul is explaining why the promises of God were still effectual in spite of the fact that many Jews were rejecting the gospel and gentiles were accepting it in great numbers.

In verses 8-9 Paul explains that not all of the descendants of Abraham are Jews but that the children of the promise are - which is why Ishmael was rejected and Isaac wasn't.

But why didn't Paul stop there? Why doesn't the illustration of Isaac and Ishmael suffice for him to make this point? Why move on to Esau and Jacob?

The reason is because Paul had been explaining in Romans 1-8 the details on things like faith, justification, and grace. To drive the point home that salvation is not based in any way whatsoever on works Paul uses the illustration of Jacob and Esau - who had the same mother and could in no way be differentiated the way Isaac and Ismael could be.

In regards to Isaac and Ishmael the argument could be made that God looked down through the corridors of time and saw the faith of Isaac verses the faith of Ishmael and saw that Isaac had it and Ishmael didn't - or that one was good person and the other wasn't.

No such argument could be made in regards to Esau and Jacob however - and Paul explicitly states so in vs 11: "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—"

Clearly Paul is driving home the point that God chooses His own people - and that he does so on the basis of His grace alone. If God were going to base his choice of election of Jacob over Esau on foreseen faith then the question must be asked why it is not mentioned in the text - and in fact the exact opposite is specifically stated in verse 11. It's not based on foreseen faith - it's based on election - which is at the root of grace. God decides whom He will save - not man.

I have to disagree. Paul is talking about election, but every decision God makes is an election. What kind of election did God make for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? These people we usually call the Jews were elected to service. It's a great honor to be used by God, but being used by God in his broad redemptive plan, is not at all the same thing as having been elected to salvation. This all relates to verse 3 where Paul says "I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." In verse 15 where Paul cites "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy . . ." the mercy in view is this election to service the Jews shared. His next example Pharaoh is the same. God elected him to serve his broad redemptive plan such that to this day he and Moses are the best known people of their time. God positively elected Pharaoh to serve his grand plan of redemption in order that Pharaoh would say no to Moses such that the entire judgment on Egypt would be fulfilled.

In verse 19 Paul gets to his point which is the insolence of complaining about God's sovereign choices. Note in verse 25 he cites Hosea. God selected Gomer to be Hosea's wife not in spite of the fact that she was a prostitute, but because of it. Her subsequent adultery was not God sovereignty overcoming Gomer's conscience, but God providential use of her free will choices which he knew via foreknowledge. Likewise if you go back to Exodus and read how Moses records each of Pharaoh's denials you are very far down the road before we come to language that permits God to be hardening Pharaoh's heart in the particular refusal. Again it would be an over reading to attribute everyone of those refusals to God's hardening Pharaoh's heart, and none of them, especially the early ones, to Pharaoh's free will. It's good enough for us to understand that somewhere in that story there came a denial of Moses that required God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart.

The main point here is not to illustrate how God uses election to choose for salvation. It's to illustrate how insolent it is for anyone to complain about God exercising his sovereignty.

 

[corinth77777]

I have to disagree. Paul is talking about election, but every decision God makes is an election. What kind of election did God make for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? These people we usually call the Jews were elected to service. It's a great honor to be used by God, but being used by God in his broad redemptive plan, is not at all the same thing as having been elected to salvation. This all relates to verse 3 where Paul says "I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." In verse 15 where Paul cites "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy . . ." the mercy in view is this election to service the Jews shared. His next example Pharaoh is the same. God elected him to serve his broad redemptive plan such that to this day he and Moses are the best known people of their time. God positively elected Pharaoh to serve his grand plan of redemption in order that Pharaoh would say no to Moses such that the entire judgment on Egypt would be fulfilled.

In verse 19 Paul gets to his point which is the insolence of complaining about God's sovereign choices. Note in verse 25 he cites Hosea. God selected Gomer to be Hosea's wife not in spite of the fact that she was a prostitute, but because of it. Her subsequent adultery was not God sovereignty overcoming Gomer's conscience, but God providential use of her free will choices which he knew via foreknowledge. Likewise if you go back to Exodus and read how Moses records each of Pharaoh's denials you are very far down the road before we come to language that permits God to be hardening Pharaoh's heart in the particular refusal. Again it would be an over reading to attribute everyone of those refusals to God's hardening Pharaoh's heart, and none of them, especially the early ones, to Pharaoh's free will. It's good enough for us to understand that somewhere in that story there came a denial of Moses that required God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart.

The main point here is not to illustrate how God uses election to choose for salvation. It's to illustrate how insolent is is for anyone to complain about God exercising his sovereignty.

I did not understand both...maybe I read it too fast....
However let me share my point of view

God is out of time and in time....and out of time He called things to be by His word...Those in one chapter I am thinking about are called into His purposes through belief on His word. HIS WORD that went forth into time is Jesus made flesh. Therefore anyone who accepted His word were called to comform to His image, or called into His purposes through the living and induring word. WHAT WAS FINISHED BEFORE TIME I BELIEVE WAS His calling.
Yet we cant have one with out the other.
Not all who are called are chosen, but all who are chosen are called....now I'll go back and read both your post sgain... and plz share where you do not agree....
For I am thinking of the chapter where Jesus is speaking of living water and those who asked Jesus to show them a miracle as Moses and the mana. JESUS TOLD THEM THEY SEEITH BUT BELIEVED NOT AND THAT THE FATHER DRAWS PEOPLE TO HIM? BUT WHO DOES THE FATHER DRAW...THOSE THAT HAD ACCEPTED HIS SON AS MESSIAH.
THOSE THAT SEEM TO HAD A MIND SET TO WANT TO FOLLOW.

 

[corinth77777]

I have to disagree. Paul is talking about election, but every decision God makes is an election. What kind of election did God make for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? These people we usually call the Jews were elected to service. It's a great honor to be used by God, but being used by God in his broad redemptive plan, is not at all the same thing as having been elected to salvation. This all relates to verse 3 where Paul says "I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." In verse 15 where Paul cites "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy . . ." the mercy in view is this election to service the Jews shared. His next example Pharaoh is the same. God elected him to serve his broad redemptive plan such that to this day he and Moses are the best known people of their time. God positively elected Pharaoh to serve his grand plan of redemption in order that Pharaoh would say no to Moses such that the entire judgment on Egypt would be fulfilled.

In verse 19 Paul gets to his point which is the insolence of complaining about God's sovereign choices. Note in verse 25 he cites Hosea. God selected Gomer to be Hosea's wife not in spite of the fact that she was a prostitute, but because of it. Her subsequent adultery was not God sovereignty overcoming Gomer's conscience, but God providential use of her free will choices which he knew via foreknowledge. Likewise if you go back to Exodus and read how Moses records each of Pharaoh's denials you are very far down the road before we come to language that permits God to be hardening Pharaoh's heart in the particular refusal. Again it would be an over reading to attribute everyone of those refusals to God's hardening Pharaoh's heart, and none of them, especially the early ones, to Pharaoh's free will. It's good enough for us to understand that somewhere in that story there came a denial of Moses that required God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart.

The main point here is not to illustrate how God uses election to choose for salvation. It's to illustrate how insolent is is for anyone to complain about God exercising his sovereignty.

Ok, read again the first one...
And disagree a tiny with the second one and a tiny with the first writer.

For a heart/spirit/mind...connected with what He called could be how He elects.

And

As for elected to salvation...it is to me the same as His purpose....for if you define salvation or eternal life as to know God and Jesus Christ we can point to what Jesus says...He does what is pleasing for His father and the father dies the work. Another words He obeys His father a d His father works through Him...This is definitely an intimate relationship, as being called into His purposes....salvation as defined by Willard, don't quote me: is being caught up in what God is now doing on earth.

 

[corinth77777]

I have to disagree. Paul is talking about election, but every decision God makes is an election. What kind of election did God make for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? These people we usually call the Jews were elected to service. It's a great honor to be used by God, but being used by God in his broad redemptive plan, is not at all the same thing as having been elected to salvation. This all relates to verse 3 where Paul says "I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." In verse 15 where Paul cites "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy . . ." the mercy in view is this election to service the Jews shared. His next example Pharaoh is the same. God elected him to serve his broad redemptive plan such that to this day he and Moses are the best known people of their time. God positively elected Pharaoh to serve his grand plan of redemption in order that Pharaoh would say no to Moses such that the entire judgment on Egypt would be fulfilled.

In verse 19 Paul gets to his point which is the insolence of complaining about God's sovereign choices. Note in verse 25 he cites Hosea. God selected Gomer to be Hosea's wife not in spite of the fact that she was a prostitute, but because of it. Her subsequent adultery was not God sovereignty overcoming Gomer's conscience, but God providential use of her free will choices which he knew via foreknowledge. Likewise if you go back to Exodus and read how Moses records each of Pharaoh's denials you are very far down the road before we come to language that permits God to be hardening Pharaoh's heart in the particular refusal. Again it would be an over reading to attribute everyone of those refusals to God's hardening Pharaoh's heart, and none of them, especially the early ones, to Pharaoh's free will. It's good enough for us to understand that somewhere in that story there came a denial of Moses that required God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart.

The main point here is not to illustrate how God uses election to choose for salvation. It's to illustrate how insolent is is for anyone to complain about God exercising his sovereignty.

Ok, read again the first one...
And disagree a tiny with the second one and a tiny with the first writer.

For a heart/spirit/mind...connected with what He called could be how He elects.

And

As for elected to salvation...it is to me the same as His purpose....for if you define salvation or eternal life as to know God and Jesus Christ we can point to what Jesus says...He does what is pleasing for His father and the father does the work. Another words He obeys His father and His father works through Him...This is definitely an intimate relationship, as being called into His purposes....salvation as defined by Willard, don't quote me: is being caught up in what God is now doing on earth.

 

[corinth77777]

Being called into His purposes
Or elected to Salvation...sounds like being made alive with Christ.
You are now either at a place where you can live according to your call of life.
Active duty....For God is not the God of the dead but the living....

Jesus is the purpose [the elected] in my view but I must try find a passage to support that statement...we who are drawn to Him are elected in Him to transform unto His image through obedience to His teachings

 

[Thistle]

I did not understand both...maybe I read it too fast....
However let me share my point of view

God is out of time and in time....and out of time He called things to be by His word...Those in one chapter I am thinking about are called into His purposes through belief on His word. HIS WORD that went forth into time is Jesus made flesh. Therefore anyone who accepted His word were called to comform to His image, or called into His purposes through the living and induring word. WHAT WAS FINISHED BEFORE TIME I BELIEVE WAS His calling.
Yet we cant have one with out the other.
Not all who are called are chosen, but all who are chosen are called....now I'll go back and read both your post sgain... and plz share where you do not agree....
For I am thinking of the chapter where Jesus is speaking of living water and those who asked Jesus to show them a miracle as Moses and the mana. JESUS TOLD THEM THEY SEEITH BUT BELIEVED NOT AND THAT THE FATHER DRAWS PEOPLE TO HIM? BUT WHO DOES THE FATHER DRAW...THOSE THAT HAD ACCEPTED HIS SON AS MESSIAH.
THOSE THAT SEEM TO HAD A MIND SET TO WANT TO FOLLOW.

If I understand what you have written here, I think we agree to a basically Arminian approach to this passage. I believe mine is more traditional where yours may be more Wesleyan, possibly. So, as this section of this scripture starts back in Romans 8:28 we read that "all things work together for those who love God." Then we get into the discussion of predestination and election. So those he "foreknew" in verse 29 are those who would love him. Therefore loving God is the criteria for predestination and election.

On the question about how God is related to time we may differ. It sounds to me like you subscribe to Augustinian timelessness. I believe that experiencing the passing of moments is an important attribute for God to have to meet the description we have of God in the bible. If God exists in an ever present NOW and is always creating the universe, while Christ is forever being nailed to the cross, and forever returning to judge the quick and the dead, then it seems to me that God solidifies into a stature of perfection as lifeless as any statue in any pagan temple. God only appears to be moving because our timeline is wrapped around him like a spring coil. For that reason I have a hard time sticking to the Augustinian timelessness model.

 

[Thistle]

Being called into His purposes
Or elected to Salvation...sounds like being made alive with Christ.
You are now either at a place where you can live according to your call of life.
Active duty....For God is not the God of the dead but the living....

Jesus is the purpose [the elected] in my view but I must try find a passage to support that statement...we who are drawn to Him are elected in Him to transform unto His image through obedience to His teachings

I think you may be confusing election with conversion. They both turn on the identical fact, the difference however is perspective. God who knows everything, because of foreknowledge, sees that we will "love him" before creation, if you will. God then elects us to salvation because we will use our free will to "love him." The only reason we know about election is that God has Paul tell us. From our point of view, we simply observe that we hear the good news, on one glad day, and say yes to Jesus. So from our perspective we see our conversion not our election.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The reason that election cannot be based on unforeseen faith is found in Romans 9:8-13.

Actually, Peter would disagree with you.

But, don't you mean "foreseen faith"? With God, there is no such thing as 'unforeseen'. He sees and knows everything.

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Election is based on God's foreknowledge. Let's keep "unforeseen/foreseen" out of it.

Clearly Paul is driving home the point that God chooses His own people - and that he does so on the basis of His grace alone.

Of course chooses those He chooses. Kind of circular reasoning here.

If God were going to base his choice of election of Jacob over Esau on foreseen faith then the question must be asked why it is not mentioned in the text - and in fact the exact opposite is specifically stated in verse 11. It's not based on foreseen faith - it's based on election - which is at the root of grace. God decides whom He will save - not man.

The problem is understanding what election is FOR. Your post suggests salvation. Which is what Calvinists believe.

But, go back to 1 Peter 1 to see the purpose of election.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

The red words identify those who have been chosen or elected.

The blue words indicate the purpose of election; to be obedient.

iow, the doctrine of election is about being chosen for service.

There are NO verses that teach that election is to salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Watch out now.. They will tell you 1 Peter 1:2 says election is by foreknowledge..

This is exactly what it says:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

 

[corinth77777]

I think you may be confusing election with conversion. They both turn on the identical fact, the difference however is perspective. God who knows everything, because of foreknowledge, sees that we will "love him" before creation, if you will. God then elects us to salvation because we will use our free will to "love him." The only reason we know about election is that God has Paul tell us. From our point of view, we simply observe that we hear the good news, on one glad day, and say yes to Jesus. So from our perspective we see our conversion not our election.

I never studied any of those folks...
But ....to be elected, it seems you need to meet a particular thought.
Then to be one of the elect partly is to believe who the Messiah is.
If you do not believe who He is How can you trust Him.
So what part of all this is conversion? [Verb]
Believing who He is or trusting
Or is to believe who He is to trust Him...God and His announcement.

I would not say God look Down to see who would believe...
But because we connected with His ongoing Spirit which is out of time, by belief in who the son is. Therefore if belief is conversion, then at conversion one is elected to comform to the image of God's son. However salvation is not mere one time event....another words you can be saved from passed sins through His death [bringing us near] in order that we are saved [live] by His life.
Through active obedience. Therefore salvation active [present possession]

 

[corinth77777]

I think you may be confusing election with conversion. They both turn on the identical fact, the difference however is perspective. God who knows everything, because of foreknowledge, sees that we will "love him" before creation, if you will. God then elects us to salvation because we will use our free will to "love him." The only reason we know about election is that God has Paul tell us. From our point of view, we simply observe that we hear the good news, on one glad day, and say yes to Jesus. So from our perspective we see our conversion not our election.

The place we are chosen/elected from is in Christ.

 

[Thistle]

I never studied any of those folks...
But ....to be elected, it seems you need to meet a particular thought.
Then to be one of the elect partly is to believe who the Messiah is.
If you do not believe who He is How can you trust Him.
So what part of all this is conversion? [Verb]
Believing who He is or trusting
Or is to believe who He is to trust Him...God and His announcement.

I would not say God look Down to see who would believe...
But because we connected with His ongoing Spirit which is out of time, by belief in who the son is. Therefore if belief is conversion, then at conversion one is elected to comform to the image of God's son. However salvation is not mere one time event....another words you can be saved from passed sins through His death [bringing us near] in order that we are saved [live] by His life.
Through active obedience. Therefore salvation active [present possession]

Okay, I see we are missing each other a little bit here. When I say the criteria for election is "those who love him" we have to know him, at least who he is, to love him. Knowing who God is, includes God the Son. So that means we have to know the Gospel. Why do we have to know the Gospel? Because we have it! The Jews didn't have to know the Gospel, because it was not complete yet. Jews, like anyone, have to know the Gospel today, because God has made it manifest.

But I think you need to adjust your belief to account for Romans 8:29 which is telling us very directly that God, from his perspective, is using foreknowledge in this whole election to salvation business.

By the way, it would mean the same thing if I said God uses his foreknowledge to see in advance our conversion.

Now you make another statement here that I believe you need to correct. You draw a line of distinction between being saved from past sins, and remaining saved on the ground of obedience. This idea is very wrong and I will tell you why. First I'll illustrate why it's wrong, then I'll tell you where Paul makes the point.

If I lived a perfect life, but one day for no particular reason, I went into a police station and murdered a police officer in full view of everyone there, what would happen? Well, they would arrest me and testify to the fact that I committed this murder and I would go to death row. So I'm sitting there as the years roll by while my appeals are being heard all the while I continue to live my perfect life.

You see there is no opportunity for any of the good that I have done in my life to compensate for the fact that I committed that one sin, of murder.

That is the way all guilt works. The bad news is, in God's justice, every sin will condemn you to eternal hell just as surely as murder.

If we ever get off the grace track, the one that saved us in the first place, we are doomed. Only the dead can say with assurance that they will never sin again. At this point some will say, well then you have to confess your sins and God will forgive you [1 John 1:9]. So then I'm saved at conversion until I sin, then I'm not saved again until I pray for forgiveness? That is not what John is trying to teach us in 1 John 1:9. Do you remember the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector [Luke 18]? The Pharisee prayed to God believing he was righteous, but the tax collector said, "God have mercy on me a sinner." He didn't go down a laundry list of his sins. Jesus said the tax collector went home justified. We need to have that same attitude. That is what 1 John 1:9 is teaching.

We become save by grace, through faith, in baptism and we remain save by grace through faith. So what about obedience? It's required, just not for salvation. Keeping that requirement is called sanctification. When we convert along with forgiveness of sins, both past and future we get power from on high. It's called the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. That power is what we use to keep our obligation to be obedient to all of Gods New Testament commands. God promises us that that power is enough. Not that we won't ever fail, but the failure is on us, not the Holy Spirit.

Let me recommend a book to you. It's called "Saved by Grace, the essence of Christianity," by Jack Cottrell. He taught this subject for 50 years at Cincinnati Bible Seminary. I think you would enjoy it. It's just 123 pages long.

 

[corinth77777]

Okay, I see we are missing each other a little bit here. When I say the criteria for election is "those who love him" we have to know him, at least who he is, to love him. Knowing who God is, includes God the Son. So that means we have to know the Gospel. Why do we have to know the Gospel? Because we have it! The Jews didn't have to know the Gospel, because it was not complete yet. Jews, like anyone, have to know the Gospel today, because God has made it manifest.

But I think you need to adjust your belief to account for Romans 8:29 which is telling us very directly that God, from his perspective, is using foreknowledge in this whole election to salvation business.

By the way, it would mean the same thing if I said God uses his foreknowledge to see in advance our conversion.

Now you make another statement here that I believe you need to correct. You draw a line of distinction between being saved from past sins, and remaining saved on the ground of obedience. This idea is very wrong and I will tell you why. First I'll illustrate why it's wrong, then I'll tell you where Paul makes the point.

If I lived a perfect life, but one day for no particular reason, I went into a police station and murdered a police officer in full view of everyone there, what would happen? Well, they would arrest me and testify to the fact that I committed this murder and I would go to death row. So I'm sitting there as the years roll by while my appeals are being heard all the while I continue to live my perfect life.

You see there is no opportunity for any of the good that I have done in my life to compensate for the fact that I committed that one sin, of murder.

That is the way all guilt works. The bad news is, in God's justice, every sin will condemn you to eternal hell just as surely as murder.

If we ever get off the grace track, the one that saved us in the first place, we are doomed. Only the dead can say with assurance that they will never sin again. At this point some will say, well then you have to confess your sins and God will forgive you [1 John 1:9]. So then I'm saved at conversion until I sin, then I'm not saved again until I pray for forgiveness? That is not what John is trying to teach us in 1 John 1:9. Do you remember the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector [Luke 18]? The Pharisee prayed to God believing he was righteous, but the tax collector said, "God have mercy on me a sinner." He didn't go down a laundry list of his sins. Jesus said the tax collector went home justified. We need to have that same attitude. That is what 1 John 1:9 is teaching.

We become save by grace, through faith, in baptism and we remain save by grace through faith. So what about obedience? It's required, just not for salvation. Keeping that requirement is called sanctification. When we convert along with forgiveness of sins, both past and future we get power from on high. It's called the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. That power is what we use to keep our obligation to be obedient to all of Gods New Testament commands. God promises us that that power is enough. Not that we won't ever fail, but the failure is on us, not the Holy Spirit.

Let me recommend a book to you. It's called "Saved by Grace, the essence of Christianity," by Jack Cottrell. He taught this subject for 50 years at Cincinnati Bible Seminary. I think you would enjoy it. It's just 123 pages long.

Hi, He Foreknew those in His Son Because He drew them to his Son because they believed His testimony through miracles. Opps wasn't finished

 

[corinth77777]

Okay, I see we are missing each other a little bit here. When I say the criteria for election is "those who love him" we have to know him, at least who he is, to love him. Knowing who God is, includes God the Son. So that means we have to know the Gospel. Why do we have to know the Gospel? Because we have it! The Jews didn't have to know the Gospel, because it was not complete yet. Jews, like anyone, have to know the Gospel today, because God has made it manifest.

But I think you need to adjust your belief to account for Romans 8:29 which is telling us very directly that God, from his perspective, is using foreknowledge in this whole election to salvation business.

By the way, it would mean the same thing if I said God uses his foreknowledge to see in advance our conversion.

Now you make another statement here that I believe you need to correct. You draw a line of distinction between being saved from past sins, and remaining saved on the ground of obedience. This idea is very wrong and I will tell you why. First I'll illustrate why it's wrong, then I'll tell you where Paul makes the point.

If I lived a perfect life, but one day for no particular reason, I went into a police station and murdered a police officer in full view of everyone there, what would happen? Well, they would arrest me and testify to the fact that I committed this murder and I would go to death row. So I'm sitting there as the years roll by while my appeals are being heard all the while I continue to live my perfect life.

You see there is no opportunity for any of the good that I have done in my life to compensate for the fact that I committed that one sin, of murder.

That is the way all guilt works. The bad news is, in God's justice, every sin will condemn you to eternal hell just as surely as murder.

If we ever get off the grace track, the one that saved us in the first place, we are doomed. Only the dead can say with assurance that they will never sin again. At this point some will say, well then you have to confess your sins and God will forgive you [1 John 1:9]. So then I'm saved at conversion until I sin, then I'm not saved again until I pray for forgiveness? That is not what John is trying to teach us in 1 John 1:9. Do you remember the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector [Luke 18]? The Pharisee prayed to God believing he was righteous, but the tax collector said, "God have mercy on me a sinner." He didn't go down a laundry list of his sins. Jesus said the tax collector went home justified. We need to have that same attitude. That is what 1 John 1:9 is teaching.

We become save by grace, through faith, in baptism and we remain save by grace through faith. So what about obedience? It's required, just not for salvation. Keeping that requirement is called sanctification. When we convert along with forgiveness of sins, both past and future we get power from on high. It's called the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. That power is what we use to keep our obligation to be obedient to all of Gods New Testament commands. God promises us that that power is enough. Not that we won't ever fail, but the failure is on us, not the Holy Spirit.

Let me recommend a book to you. It's called "Saved by Grace, the essence of Christianity," by Jack Cottrell. He taught this subject for 50 years at Cincinnati Bible Seminary. I think you would enjoy it. It's just 123 pages long.

Hi, my thoughts are...
That its is one thing to be saved from the penalty and another to be saved by the power...If God saves, the body, soul, and spirit.....how are we saved today from such things dealing with our life[soul] here on earth from different circumstances.
So yes we were quicken with Christ..or brought near to God through the blood of Jesus .......that is definitely a saving [verb] an action. BUT we were saved by his death[reconciled] to be saved by His Life.[Spirit]SO while we may not loose His Life given to us. Which is a noun, we must eat from it to live. If by the Spirit we put away the deeds of the flesh we shall live.....
Therefore life with God is our Salvation/deliverence, joy and peace.
And if we do not continue to trust Jesus then we are like those in the wilderness.
And where is our being delivered[verb] if we turn away from Him?[our deliverer]
GOD is our salvation, but if we do not trust Him how can we be delivered.
Therefore trust is to do everyday...we must feed off of Jesus by abiding in His Love...if we abide in Him we keep His commands........and the Father comes to make his abode.. now that is salvation
Being in the father and the son? Right

 

[Thistle]

Hi, my thoughts are...
That its is one thing to be saved from the penalty and another to be saved by the power...If God saves, the body, soul, and spirit.....how are we saved today from such things dealing with our life[soul] here on earth from different circumstances.
So yes we were quicken with Christ..or brought near to God through the blood of Jesus .......that is definitely a saving [verb] an action. BUT we were saved by his death[reconciled] to be saved by His Life.[Spirit]SO while we may not loose His Life given to us. Which is a noun, we must eat from it to live. If by the Spirit we put away the deeds of the flesh we shall live.....
Therefore life with God is our Salvation/deliverence, joy and peace.
And if we do not continue to trust Jesus then we are like those in the wilderness.
And where is our being delivered[verb] if we turn away from Him?[our deliverer]
GOD is our salvation, but if we do not trust Him how can we be delivered.
Therefore trust is to do everyday...we must feed off of Jesus by abiding in His Love...if we abide in Him we keep His commands........and the Father comes to make his abode.. now that is salvation
Being in the father and the son? Right

This is going to require me to get into more detail than I had in mind, but that's okay. The difficulty I have with what you have said above is that it makes "keeping the law" part of "staying saved." So to be clear, what do I mean by "keeping the law?" Every imperative statement that the bible directs to the reader to keep is "the law." And to further clarify the Old Testament was written to, in this sense, those from Adam to Pentecost, and the New Testament was written to those from Pentecost until the Lord returns. I think there are 619 "laws" in the OT but there is more than a thousand in the New. Ironic when you consider their relative lengths. But it makes sense because Jesus set the bar much higher in the Sermon on the mount, for example.

If the Jews couldn't get saved, or stay save, by keeping 619 laws, what chance do we have in keeping almost twice as many laws? Slim and none, and slim just left town. Our salvation can turn on keeping more than a thousand laws. We get saved by trusting grace, which is also how we stay saved.

I hope what I have said above is pretty clear because now I'm going to confuse the issue just a little bit. Not every imperative statement in the bible directed to us is a "law command." So in Acts two where the crowd says to Peter, "men and brothers, what shall we do?" Peter says "repent and be baptized . . ." Peter had just told them they had crucified the Messiah. They will not be any more moral or any less guilty, for repenting and being baptized, unless God has promised to forgive them and give them the gift of the Holy Spirit if they do. Of course that is exactly what Peter goes on to say. That is an imperative statement, but it's not a law command, it's a grace command.

Keeping grace commands can in fact save us. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." In principle this makes sense. Imagine you are leaning over the rail of an ocean liner to take a selfie and you fall off. You yell help and some crew member throws you a life line and shouts back "grab the rope."
He's not saying that because the cruse line has a policy that says you have to grab that rope. Nor is he saying it because you will be following some moral imperative if you do. He yelled "grab the rope" because that is the form of the help you called for in the moment. Grace commands are all like that.

So where does keeping the law come in? Ephesians 2:10 tells us we are saved for good works, not by good works. Living the Christian life is what we do because we are saved not to stay saved. We can be serious about keeping God's law without fearing for our salvation, and in fact that is exactly what we are required to do.

 

[corinth77777]

This is going to require me to get into more detail than I had in mind, but that's okay. The difficulty I have with what you have said above is that it makes "keeping the law" part of "staying saved." So to be clear, what do I mean by "keeping the law?" Every imperative statement that the bible directs to the reader to keep is "the law." And to further clarify the Old Testament was written to, in this sense, those from Adam to Pentecost, and the New Testament was written to those from Pentecost until the Lord returns. I think there are 619 "laws" in the OT but there is more than a thousand in the New. Ironic when you consider their relative lengths. But it makes sense because Jesus set the bar much higher in the Sermon on the mount, for example.

If the Jews couldn't get saved, or stay save, by keeping 619 laws, what chance do we have in keeping almost twice as many laws? Slim and none, and slim just left town. Our salvation can turn on keeping more than a thousand laws. We get saved by trusting grace, which is also how we stay saved.

I hope what I have said above is pretty clear because now I'm going to confuse the issue just a little bit. Not every imperative statement in the bible directed to us is a "law command." So in Acts two where the crowd says to Peter, "men and brothers, what shall we do?" Peter says "repent and be baptized . . ." Peter had just told them they had crucified the Messiah. They will not be any more moral or any less guilty, for repenting and being baptized, unless God has promised to forgive them and give them the gift of the Holy Spirit if they do. Of course that is exactly what Peter goes on to say. That is an imperative statement, but it's not a law command, it's a grace command.

Keeping grace commands can in fact save us. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." In principle this makes sense. Imagine you are leaning over the rail of an ocean liner to take a selfie and you fall off. You yell help and some crew member throws you a life line and shouts back "grab the rope."
He's not saying that because the cruse line has a policy that says you have to grab that rope. Nor is he saying it because you will be following some moral imperative if you do. He yelled "grab the rope" because that is the form of the help you called for in the moment. Grace commands are all like that.

So where does keeping the law come in? Ephesians 2:10 tells us we are saved for good works, not by good works. Living the Christian life is what we do because we are saved not to stay saved. We can be serious about keeping God's law without fearing for our salvation, and in fact that is exactly what we are required to do.

Hi,
I do not know where I mentioned the Law...pursue...or how you arrived at your understanding..I responded to your statement:

"Now you make another statement here that I believe you need to correct. You draw a line of distinction between being saved from past sins, and remaining saved on the ground of obedience. This idea is very wrong and I will tell you why. First I'll illustrate why it's wrong, then I'll tell you where Paul makes the point."

I responded...
And nothing I said had to do with the keeping the Law after the flesh..pursue

Please read it again

First question I'd asked is what were we saved from in EPHESIANS 2.

If we were saved from trespasses and sins by His death, reconciled to God. How is it you think I am speaking of the Law after the flesh?

So then We were dead in sin and we were quickened together with Christ..
...this is "by grace through faith" and this was not of ourselves...

But there are somethings that are of ourselves to do..."remain in His[that] Love"
So the first part is being reconciled to God...being brought near by His blood...

But we cannot leave Him in the grave....
Because He got up that we might be justified[saved]live by His Life...

You see, so what it seems to me...is you are placing the term saved...to mean only once....but God, by the use of His Spirit can save us from many things.

You are limiting the term...from EPHESIANS 2....to other areas of salvation...and I do not believe you have as of yet seen the full picture..because you are limiting "salvation" to mean the same in every passage you may see or here the term saved.

For being reconciled to God ...is one saving aspect......but we are reconciled in order that we live by The power of His resurrected Life[spirit] that is given to us.

That is to work out your salvation...or to say: Work out His life.

Therefore we were saved from trespasses and sins, by His death in order that we live[be saved] by His Life.

You are making reconciliation everything of Salvation...Leaving out Justification and our sanctification....

Even Jesus is all of that to us, It is the reality that comes from it that saves us in this world. You know we are saved AND being saved.

Another words ...you are given life...that life is In Him. When you obey, [eat, abide] it is how you also "know" what it is that lives in you. There you may see, or come to understand the definition of eternal life that is in the Bible...."that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent"

"Know" is an intimate relationship ...being "caught up in what God is doing,now here on earth"

Therefore your salvation [ongoing deliverence] is feasting off Christ.

So then I hope you can see, we are not just saved from the penalty of Sin....
We can also be saved from the power of sin...which is also a part of the journey or process of an ongoing salvation on earth. So then we "were saved", from trespasses and sin through His Death
receiving his spirit<<< part 1

In order to be Justified[saved] by/through His Life. This is part our part[to purify ourselves by what He has given us to overcome this Life. Which is by His spirit<<<part 2

In which you will see passages like this:if by the spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live. Or, If you walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

So can you see which one is a regeneration passage?

I really hoped this helped

For we are brought in the light or near to God...in order to learn how to relate..to The Father by the son's Spirit

So Yes obedience to the Spirit of Life..is required to being saved from this Life.
We overcome this world by His Spirit for He already conquered the world.

And so....[being saved]..... is feasting off Jesus...because truly to believe is to put your trust in Him, surrendering our lives under His authority as Jesus came to do His Father's will and not His own. JESUS DID NOT DO IT ONE TIME...HE WAS OBEDIENT EVEN ONTO DEATH....

HE OBEYED THE FATHER AND THE FATHER DID THE WORKN through Him...that is why we must obey.....
So that God works through us....

So He knew the father was doing the work because He didn't didn't do it on His own.
The father being with the son is a type of salvation...Because the Spirit is Life.

 

[Thistle]

Hi,
I do not know where I mentioned the Law...pursue...or how you arrived at your understanding..I responded to your statement:

"Now you make another statement here that I believe you need to correct. You draw a line of distinction between being saved from past sins, and remaining saved on the ground of obedience. This idea is very wrong and I will tell you why. First I'll illustrate why it's wrong, then I'll tell you where Paul makes the point."

I responded...
And nothing I said had to do with the keeping the Law after the flesh..pursue

Please read it again

First question I'd asked is what were we saved from in EPHESIANS 2.

If we were saved from trespasses and sins by His death, reconciled to God. How is it you think I am speaking of the Law after the flesh?

So then We were dead in sin and we were quickened together with Christ..
...this is "by grace through faith" and this was not of ourselves...

But there are somethings that are of ourselves to do..."remain in His[that] Love"
So the first part is being reconciled to God...being brought near by His blood...

But we cannot leave Him in the grave....
Because He got up that we might be justified[saved]live by His Life...

You see, so what it seems to me...is you are placing the term saved...to mean only once....but God, by the use of His Spirit can save us from many things.

You are limiting the term...from EPHESIANS 2....to other areas of salvation...and I do not believe you have as of yet seen the full picture..because you are limiting "salvation" to mean the same in every passage you may see or here the term saved.

For being reconciled to God ...is one saving aspect......but we are reconciled in order that we live by The power of His resurrected Life[spirit] that is given to us.

That is to work out your salvation...or to say: Work out His life.

Therefore we were saved from trespasses and sins, by His death in order that we live[be saved] by His Life.

You are making reconciliation everything of Salvation...Leaving out Justification and our sanctification....

Even Jesus is all of that to us, It is the reality that comes from it that saves us in this world. You know we are saved AND being saved.

Another words ...you are given life...that life is In Him. When you obey, [eat, abide] it is how you also "know" what it is that lives in you. There you may see, or come to understand the definition of eternal life that is in the Bible...."that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent"

"Know" is an intimate relationship ...being "caught up in what God is doing,now here on earth"

Therefore your salvation [ongoing deliverence] is feasting off Christ.

So then I hope you can see, we are not just saved from the penalty of Sin....
We can also be saved from the power of sin...which is also a part of the journey or process of an ongoing salvation on earth. So then we "were saved", from trespasses and sin through His Death
receiving his spirit<<< part 1

In order to be Justified[saved] by/through His Life. This is part our part[to purify ourselves by what He has given us to overcome this Life. Which is by His spirit<<<part 2

In which you will see passages like this:if by the spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live. Or, If you walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

So can you see which one is a regeneration passage?

I really hoped this helped

For we are brought in the light or near to God...in order to learn how to relate..to The Father by the son's Spirit

So Yes obedience to the Spirit of Life..is required to being saved from this Life.
We overcome this world by His Spirit for He already conquered the world.

And so....[being saved]..... is feasting off Jesus...because truly to believe is to put your trust in Him, surrendering our lives under His authority as Jesus came to do His Father's will and not His own. JESUS DID NOT DO IT ONE TIME...HE WAS OBEDIENT EVEN ONTO DEATH....

HE OBEYED THE FATHER AND THE FATHER DID THE WORKN through Him...that is why we must obey.....
So that God works through us....

So He knew the father was doing the work because He didn't didn't do it on His own.
The father being with the son is a type of salvation...Because the Spirit is Life.

This raises more questions to me, but perhaps I should clarify what I was addressing before. You said:

". . . trust is to do everyday...we must feed off of Jesus by abiding in His Love...if we abide in Him we keep His commands........and the Father comes to make his abode.. now that is salvation
Therefore trust is to do everyday...we must feed off of Jesus by abiding in His Love...if we abide in Him we keep His commands........and the Father comes to make his abode.. now that is salvation
Being in the father and the son? Right"

Now we can discuss what "saved" means in the past, present and future tenses, and we can discuss the distinction between justification and sanctification. But given there was a point in time before we were converted, and we now live in this time after which we've been converted, saved in the past tense is an important concept to get our heads around. If we are constantly questioning our state of grace on the criteria of the extent to which we've failed to "keep His commands," we're forgoing some of the joy that is our birth right as children of God. I think in this regard we should seek the state of mind that we are truly trusting that we are fully forgiven. And we should understand that our future sins are forgiven the same way our past ones were, which is by grace, through faith, on the ground of the cross work of Christ.

Peter mentions that he has a hard time understanding what Paul means, in the very act of acknowledging Paul's writings are scripture. I hope we can agree that Peter knew Christian theology as well as anyone who ever lived. Paul has some single sentences that are, in the Greek, 150 words long. With your generous use of ellipsis some of your sentences are a little hard for me to get my head around. However that may be, I hope I've at least clarified some of the language I found challenging in your prior post.

 

[corinth77777]

This raises more questions to me, but perhaps I should clarify what I was addressing before. You said:

". . . trust is to do everyday...we must feed off of Jesus by abiding in His Love...if we abide in Him we keep His commands........and the Father comes to make his abode.. now that is salvation
Therefore trust is to do everyday...we must feed off of Jesus by abiding in His Love...if we abide in Him we keep His commands........and the Father comes to make his abode.. now that is salvation
Being in the father and the son? Right"

Now we can discuss what "saved" means in the past, present and future tenses, and we can discuss the distinction between justification and sanctification. But given there was a point in time before we were converted, and we now live in this time after which we've been converted, saved in the past tense is an important concept to get our heads around. If we are constantly questioning our state of grace on the criteria of the extent to which we've failed to "keep His commands," we're forgoing some of the joy that is our birth right as children of God. I think in this regard we should seek the state of mind that we are truly trusting that we are fully forgiven. And we should understand that our future sins are forgiven the same way our past ones were, which is by grace, through faith, on the ground of the cross work of Christ.

Peter mentions that he has a hard time understanding what Paul means, in the very act of acknowledging Paul's writings are scripture. I hope we can agree that Peter knew Christian theology as well as anyone who ever lived. Paul has some single sentences that are, in the Greek, 150 words long. With your generous use of ellipsis some of your sentences are a little hard for me to get my head around. However that may be, I hope I've at least clarified some of the language I found challenging in your prior post.

" If we are constantly questioning our state of grace on the criteria of the extent to which we've failed to "keep His commands," we're forgoing some of the joy that is our birth right as children of God. I think in this regard we should seek the state of mind that we are truly trusting that we are fully forgiven. And we should understand that our future sins are forgiven the same way our past ones were, which is by grace, through faith, on the ground of the cross work of Christ"

I'm not sure where we are going with this:
But if you say future forgiveness of sin should be taken as all sins forgiven...once believed then one must address what it means to believe, but not to stop there, for we cannot ignore the scripture that tells us How sins are forgiven as we live on this earth. That is: if we walk in the Spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. It may be the same because it's all done in Jesus, However How sins continually are forgiven is through abiding, or living according to the call, working out our salvation, learning obedience, or as said walking in the footsteps of faith.

Yes and we must check ourselves if we are walking according to truth...because
You really can't say you know Him unless you abide in Him.....

You can't trust you are fully forgiven until you are truly forgiven...[its a true reality]

The foundational truth is though that you can trust Jesus to forgive you when you walk by the Spirit....
Trust Jesus
The grace that saves is found [in Jesus]

1 tim 1:14
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Also note ...that it is not that we can keep His commands by simply trying to keep his commands...We must be born again...
Being born again to me is a true reality
First the heart must be changed for you to keep the command to Love....

So then that tells us where our minds should stay fixed...so salvation as said before is not a one time event, it's a life..
It's Christ's life and we are in a state of deliverence as we remain in him.

 

[corinth77777]

" If we are constantly questioning our state of grace on the criteria of the extent to which we've failed to "keep His commands," we're forgoing some of the joy that is our birth right as children of God. I think in this regard we should seek the state of mind that we are truly trusting that we are fully forgiven. And we should understand that our future sins are forgiven the same way our past ones were, which is by grace, through faith, on the ground of the cross work of Christ"

I'm not sure where we are going with this:
But if you say future forgiveness of sin should be taken as all sins forgiven...once believed then one must address what it means to believe, but not to stop there, for we cannot ignore the scripture that tells us How sins are forgiven as we live on this earth. That is: if we walk in the Spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. It may be the same because it's all done in Jesus, However How sins continually are forgiven is through abiding, or living according to the call, working out our salvation, learning obedience, or as said walking in the footsteps of faith.

Yes and we must check ourselves if we are walking according to truth...because
You really can't say you know Him unless you abide in Him.....

You can't trust you are fully forgiven until you are truly forgiven...[its a true reality]

The foundational truth is though that you can trust Jesus to forgive you when you walk by the Spirit....
Trust Jesus
The grace that saves is found [in Jesus]

1 tim 1:14
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Also note ...that it is not that we can keep His commands by simply trying to keep his commands...We must be born again...
Being born again to me is a true reality
First the heart must be changed for you to keep the command to Love....

So then that tells us where our minds should stay fixed...so salvation as said before is not a one time event, it's a life..
It's Christ's life and we are in a state of deliverence as we remain in him.

Therefore I see election, as one who believes on Christ. For out of time it is done, but in time it is happening.
But the election in this case is to comform to the image of His son....

Therefore my opinion, all who come, had came because they believed His work in
His son. AND all who received his son God gave the right for them to become sons of God. But where? As they remain in Christ? Or somewhere else?
Environment seems to be important as well as dna....in shaping our character..

So say I have been given the spirit...yet remain in sin....will I conform to the image of His son?

But if I have His Spirit and live by it ...that may be a more likely outcome.

Where are we sons? In Christ?
If we are not in Christ, then can one say we are not abiding in Him?

Therefore can He be in us, and we[our hearts] not be in Him?

Just some thought...make a great day