why ECT became the dominant view in the west

[Fervent]

I was trying to discuss the issue of ECT in of itself, UR aside, like I said a few posts back. However at this point I've lost interest in pursuing the matter.

My concern is not anything as grand as ECT, but specifically what we are to make of Matthew 25:46. That it is most naturally a support passage for ECT is somewhat incidental, though it is impossible to talk about it without addressing the abuses from the UR camp in attempting to neuter the verse with rather weak attacks on the meaning of two specific words. That you malign the ECT understanding of the verse without any compelling dismissal is in itself telling. Especially considering your feigned neutrality that is clearly anything but.

 

[Ceallaigh]

My concern is not anything as grand as ECT, but specifically what we are to make of Matthew 25:46. That it is most naturally a support passage for ECT is somewhat incidental, though it is impossible to talk about it without addressing the abuses from the UR camp in attempting to neuter the verse with rather weak attacks on the meaning of two specific words. That you malign the ECT understanding of the verse without any compelling dismissal is in itself telling. Especially considering your feigned neutrality that is clearly anything but.

I really don't want to discuss your complaints regarding UR. And you've made too many character accusations against me.

 

[Der Alte]

My concern is not anything as grand as ECT, but specifically what we are to make of Matthew 25:46. That it is most naturally a support passage for ECT is somewhat incidental, though it is impossible to talk about it without addressing the abuses from the UR camp in attempting to neuter the verse with rather weak attacks on the meaning of two specific words. That you malign the ECT understanding of the verse without any compelling dismissal is in itself telling. Especially considering your feigned neutrality that is clearly anything but.

Here is my post on Matt 25:46

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correct.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correct” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 yrs +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 yrs +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

Just to add to Der Alte's commentary, Greek Orthodox continually use not only Koine Greek but Byzantine (9th-15th century) Greek as the main Greek of our services. Katharevousa Greek, which is a conservative version of Greek that developed in the late 1700s and incorporates parts of Koine Greek, is the official language of the Greek Orthodox Church. It was only in 1976 that Demotic Greek was declared the official Greek language. So as a chanter, I know very little Demotic Greek, but I can muddle my way through our liturgical texts and even I've caught minor mistakes when a Greek translator has picked a less than desirable English equivalent. Or in some instances, the translation was done by someone in the early 20th century and the English that they picked out isn't used anymore.

Katharevousa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ceallaigh]

Just to add to Der Alte's commentary, Greek Orthodox continually use not only Koine Greek but Byzantine (9th-15th century) Greek as the main Greek of our services. Katharevousa Greek, which is a conservative version of Greek that developed in the late 1700s and incorporates parts of Koine Greek, is the official language of the Greek Orthodox Church. It was only in 1976 that Demotic Greek was declared the official Greek language. So as a chanter, I know very little Demotic Greek, but I can muddle my way through our liturgical texts and even I've caught minor mistakes when a Greek translator has picked a less than desirable English equivalent. Or in some instances, the translation was done by someone in the early 20th century and the English that they picked out isn't used anymore.

Katharevousa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So even in Greek Orthodox liturgical texts you've caught mistakes when a Greek translator has picked a less than desirable English equivalent. Meaning the translators of the EOB in question aren't necessarily infallible.

 

[Fervent]

So even in Greek Orthodox liturgical texts you've caught mistakes when a Greek translator has picked a less than desirable English equivalent. Meaning the translators of the EOB in question aren't necessarily infallible.

That's quite the red herring.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That's quite the red herring.

I really wish you could set aside the vitriol so we could have a neutral civil conversation.

 

[Fervent]

I really wish you could set aside the viterol so we could have a neutral civil conversation.

I'm not sure what you're reading as vitriolic, my comment was simply meant to point out that Der Alte's argument and PsaltiChrysostom's addition in no way require infallibility of the translators so to point out that they're not infallible is nothing more than an unnecessary distraction.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Here is my post on Matt 25:46

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correct.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correct” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 yrs +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

There is a problem in that the word "punishment" can be associated with the word "correction".

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not sure what you're reading as vitriolic, my comment was simply meant to point out that Der Alte's argument and PsaltiChrysostom's addition in no way require infallibility of the translators so to point out that they're not infallible is nothing more than an unnecessary distraction.

Assumptions/presuppositions of fallibility do not get anywhere near proving such. I know there are any number of so-called scholars with varying opinions of what the Greek/Hebrew "really mean" but I have never seen any credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence supporting the varied opinions. So unless/until I see such evidence I present the JPS translation of the OT and the EOB translation of the NT as very likely the most correct.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'm not sure what you're reading as vitriolic, my comment was simply meant to point out that Der Alte's argument and PsaltiChrysostom's addition in no way require infallibility of the translators so to point out that they're not infallible is nothing more than an unnecessary distraction.

I've found you to be quite acerbic and accusatory towards me in this thread. It's pretty clear to me that Der Alte is saying since it's in the English version of the EOB that it must therefore be correct. Whereas PsaltiChrysostom is pointing out that mistakes are made even when it comes to English translations of Greek Orthodox liturgy. Now I might be wrong in that assessment, but I'm not scheming and trying to employ a red herring tactic.

 

[Der Alte]

There is a problem in that the word "punishment" can be associated with the word "correction".

The definition from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich one of, if not the, most highly accredited lexicons currently available. This represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship.

κολάζω fut. κολάσω; 1 aor. mid. ἐκολασάμην. Pass.: 1 fut. κολασθήσομαι; aor. 3 pl. ἐκολάσθησαν LXX; pf. inf. κεκολάσθαι (s. three next entries) penalize, punish (so Trag., Pla.+; also OGI 90, 28; PSI 446, 14; PRyl 62, 9) act. τινά someone lit., of the punishment of slaves Hs 9, 28, 8. In imagery do someone an injury, of polytheists who penalize their cult images by locking them up Dg 2:8. In an apocalyptic place of punishment are οἱ κολάζοντες ἄγγελοι ApcPt 6:21b (Chariton 4, 2, 7 οἱ κολάζοντες=‘constables, police’; Sallust. 19 p. 34, 15 δαίμονες κολάζοντες).—Mid. (Aristoph., Vesp. 405; Pla., Protag. 324c; 3 Macc 7:3; ApcEsdr 1:11 p. 25, 4 Tdf.; Just., A II, 2, 9; 11; 16) Ac 4:21.—Mostly pass. of the punishment of Christians 1 Pt 2:20 v.l.; Dg 5:16; 6:9; 7:8; 10:7; MPol 2:4. Of the Last Judgment 2 Pt 2:9. βασάνοις 2 Cl 17:7 (on the dat., cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 90 §377 κ. θανάτῳ; Polyaenus 3, 9, 56; Lucian, Dial. Mort. 17, 2; Jos., Ant. 18, 314 κ. πληγαῖς.—Just., A II, 1, 2 ἐν πυρί). δισσῶς be punished doubly Hs 9, 18, 2. Of hell οἱ κολαζόμενοι ἐκεῖ ApcPt 6:21a. (Of punishment by God: TestAsh 6:2; ApcEsdr 1:11; Just., D. 88, 5; Diod S 16, 32, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 3; Dio Chrys. 59 [76], 5; Aesop, Fab. 77 P.=127 H. ὑπὸ θεῶν κολάζονται; oft. in ins in FSteinleitner, D. Beicht 1913, p. 10ff; LRobert, Nouvelles Inscriptions de Sardes ’64, 24ff; LXX; Jos., Bell. 2, 163; cp. Theoph. Ant., 2, 36 [p. 196, 24]). Aristotle’s limitation of the term κόλασις to disciplinary action Rhet. 1, 10, 17 is not reflected in gener. usage.—DELG s.v. κόλος 3. M-M. TW.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 554–555.​

Numerous sources the authors consulted in determining the correct definition highlighted in blue.

 

[Fervent]

I've found you to be quite acerbic and accusatory towards me in this thread. It's pretty clear to me that Der Alte is saying since it's in the English version of the EOB that it must therefore be correct. Whereas PsaltiChrysostom is pointing out that mistakes are made even when it comes to English translations of Greek Orthodox liturgy. Now I might be wrong in that assessment, but I'm not scheming and trying to employ a red herring tactic.

Whether you intended to divert with a red herring or not, what you presented was a red herring. Psalti seems to have been adding support to Der Alte's invoking the EOB by laying out that while Koine Greek is no longer in full use, the Greek used is close enough to Koine Greek that familiarity with it is likely to be reliable. There's no need for a translator to be infallible for their translation to be the most likely, and it seems apparent that the muddying of the water regarding the words meaning is primarily driven by theological rather than lexical concerns.

 

[Der Alte]

I've found you to be quite acerbic and accusatory towards me in this thread. It's pretty clear to me that Der Alte is saying since it's in the English version of the EOB that it must therefore be correct. Whereas PsaltiChrysostom is pointing out that mistakes are made even when it comes to English translations of Greek Orthodox liturgy. Now I might be wrong in that assessment, but I'm not scheming and trying to employ a red herring tactic.

I invite your attention to my post #103 above. The pertinent portion.

"The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.
EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correct.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correct” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.​

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

So even in Greek Orthodox liturgical texts you've caught mistakes when a Greek translator has picked a less than desirable English equivalent. Meaning the translators of the EOB in question aren't necessarily infallible.

Sigh... who is arguing infallibility on any part? I'm hardly infallible either and in most cases, some of our texts were translated in the 1920s and the language is outdated compared to what we would use today. For example, some of the Holy Week texts state that “Today the Jews nailed to the Cross the Lord who divided the sea”. We struggle to avoid issues of anti-Semitism and some have suggested that a better update would be "The Sanhedrin nailed to the Cross the Lord who divided the sea." We have issues where idioms are used in a text and the translator has tried to use an updated English idiom which IMHO just sounds odd. In this instance, the Funeral Hymn called "The Last Kiss", one translation reads, "Come give him our brother a last kiss, now given for burial." One other reads "He/she is taken for burial, and lies six feet under,". Well... I still use the first reading when singing that hymn.

As for the topic at hand, we pray during Sunday prior to the start of Lent, known as Last Judgement Sunday, "Rescue me, then I pray, from unquenchable fire, and count me worthy to stand at your right hand, You the most Righteous judge."

 

[Ceallaigh]

Whether you intended to divert with a red herring or not, what you presented was a red herring. Psalti seems to have been adding support to Der Alte's invoking the EOB by laying out that while Koine Greek is no longer in full use, the Greek used is close enough to Koine Greek that familiarity with it is likely to be reliable. There's no need for a translator to be infallible for their translation to be the most likely, and it seems apparent that the muddying of the water regarding the words meaning is primarily driven by theological rather than lexical concerns.

Wow so much suspicion and so many accusations.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sigh... who is arguing infallibility on any part?

It seemed to me that Der Alte was arguing infallibility.

I'm hardly infallible either and in most cases, some of our texts were translated in the 1920s and the language is outdated compared to what we would use today. For example, some of the Holy Week texts state that “Today the Jews nailed to the Cross the Lord who divided the sea”. We struggle to avoid issues of anti-Semitism and some have suggested that a better update would be "The Sanhedrin nailed to the Cross the Lord who divided the sea." We have issues where idioms are used in a text and the translator has tried to use an updated English idiom which IMHO just sounds odd. In this instance, the Funeral Hymn called "The Last Kiss", one translation reads, "Come give him our brother a last kiss, now given for burial." One other reads "He/she is taken for burial, and lies six feet under,". Well... I still use the first reading when singing that hymn.

As for the topic at hand, we pray during Sunday prior to the start of Lent, known as Last Judgement Sunday, "Rescue me, then I pray, from unquenchable fire, and count me worthy to stand at your right hand, You the most Righteous judge."

Interesting. How far back does that go?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Assumptions/presuppositions of fallibility do not get anywhere near proving such. I know there are any number of so-called scholars with varying opinions of what the Greek/Hebrew "really mean" but I have never seen any credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence supporting the varied opinions. So unless/until I see such evidence I present the JPS translation of the OT and the EOB translation of the NT as very likely the most correct.

I just looked up Matthew 25:46 in a lexicon and saw this:

Matthew 25:46 Lexicon: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Now is that conclusive? No. Does it prove UR proponents are right? No. But it is there from a pretty reliable and presumably non-URite source.

 

[Der Alte]

I just looked up Matthew 25:46 in a lexicon and saw this:
View attachment 333826

Matthew 25:46 Lexicon: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Now is that conclusive? No. Does it prove UR proponents are right? No. But it is there from a pretty reliable and presumably non-URite source.

Sorry amigo it may be called a lexicon but that is NOT a lexicon. Please see my post #112 above which shows what a lexical entry should look like. What you posted is just the scholar giving his opinion. A lexicon shows the sources consulted in determining the correct definition.
ETA: Upon further reflection I must point out that the Greek word "aionios" in the entry quoted above it is translated "age long" "age" is a noun therefore it is incorrect.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sorry amigo it may be called a lexicon but that is NOT a lexicon. Please see my post #112 above which shows what a lexical entry should look like. What you posted is just the scholar giving his opinion. A lexicon shows the sources consulted in determining the correct definition.

#112 looks like what's basically mostly code that needs to be decrypted.

Occam's razor: The simplest explanation is preferable to one that is more complex.

ETA: Upon further reflection I must point out that the Greek word "aionios" in the entry quoted above it is translated "age long" "age" is a noun therefore it is incorrect.

What you just posted is just someone who's not a scholar giving his opinion.