Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

[Righttruth]

Hi,

And what say you, of @Der Alter, who has put down for you my point?

All of scripture is to be used to understand God, as well as we can?

Why are you ignoring everything that others understand?

LOVE,

Each one understands in his own way. What is important is what is plainly revealed. Not private interpretations.

 

[Der Alte]

None of these prove a trinity. Unless by trinity you mean God sent his son into the world to do his will through the power of the holy spirit. But trinitarians really believe Jesus is yahweh. That he is God the Son. It is absurd and not in the bible anywhere. Not in any of those verses you quoted or anywhere.

Now I'm all like, Ok Wait! What? I said nothing about "proving a Trinity!" The verses I quoted show that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called or referred to as God. If you disagree with what the verses say, which I quoted, please extend me the courtesy of taking a little time and show me.

 

[Der Alte]

D
Der altar needs to read psalms 82:6 and 1cor8&5, and tell us how many Gods he believes there actually are

Perhaps you would like to answer the question der altar refused to answer.
Who in your view is THE God of the one true omnipotent God, 1 peter1:3, 2 cor1:3, etc. I know of no such God. Who is he?

You have not asked me a question which I have refused to answer. If you wish for me to read a verse, quote it here and tell me what you think it says/proves anything in my post wrong. I already told you how many Gods there are. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God!

All the above verses can be disputed to indicate the error in the orthodox Trinity concept which was a diversion when monotheism religion of Judaism that led to Christianity got into Paganism. Trinity stands for God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All the Three are personified in the recording of the Bible though the Father and the Holy Spirit are Spirit.

If the verses I quoted can be disputed, please do so. Saying that does not make it so. The Trinity doctrine has nothing to do with anything pagan. There is no verifiable, credible, historical evidence that any culture/society had a trinity or even a defined triad of deities which could have influenced Christianity. Quotes from random websites do not constitute credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You have not asked me a question which I have refused to answer. If you wish for me to read a verse, quote it here and tell me what you think it says/proves anything in my post wrong. I already told you how many Gods there are. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God!



If the verses I quoted can be disputed, please do so. Saying that does not make it so. The Trinity doctrine has nothing to do with anything pagan. There is no verifiable, credible, historical evidence that any culture/society had a trinity or even a defined triad of deities which could have influenced Christianity. Quotes from random websites do not constitute credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

Praise be to THE GOD and father of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 peter1:3

If Jesus is the one true God, who is THE GOD of the one true omnipotent God?

I asked you this the last time we chatted. You DID NOT reply

 

[stuart lawrence]

You have not asked me a question which I have refused to answer. If you wish for me to read a verse, quote it here and tell me what you think it says/proves anything in my post wrong. I already told you how many Gods there are. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God!



If the verses I quoted can be disputed, please do so. Saying that does not make it so. The Trinity doctrine has nothing to do with anything pagan. There is no verifiable, credible, historical evidence that any culture/society had a trinity or even a defined triad of deities which could have influenced Christianity. Quotes from random websites do not constitute credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

Jesus said the father was the ONLY true God and greater than he. scripture DOES NOT contradict itself. So anyone quoting scripture to try and show Christ is the one true God and the father is not greater than he, does NOT understand the meaning of the verses they quote

 

[nomadictheist]

Jesus said the father was the ONLY true God and greater than he. scripture DOES NOT contradict itself. So anyone quoting scripture to try and show Christ is the one true God and the father is not greater than he, does NOT understand the meaning of the verses they quote

Who do you propose Jesus, the Word, is, then? Because we clearly see John state that the "Word was God."

 

[katerinah1947]

Yes, not as God!

Hi,

Yes you accept Jesus as the Jesus of Psalms 2?

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

I have responded to a lot of what you have written but you do NOT respond to what is put before you. Psalms 2 does not speak of an equal trinity, that is ridiculous, there is nothing to respond to. Your explanations of scripture take many liberties

Hi,

Do you accept That Jesus spoken of in Psalms 2?

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

Jesus said the father was the ONLY true God and greater than he. scripture DOES NOT contradict itself. So anyone quoting scripture to try and show Christ is the one true God and the father is not greater than he, does NOT understand the meaning of the verses they quote

Hi,

This question is not mine.

It is @Der Alter 's. You asked him and not me.

Jesus is Begotten. The Holy Spirit is Sent.

Respectfully, why would Jesus not refer to His Own Personal "Spiritually Genetic" father as Greater Than He is?

Even if an earthly son is larger, wealthier, healthier, stronger than his father, is not his father still greater than his son?

Even an earthly son, can he be a son, without his father, procreating him?

I do not know what @Der Alter , will say. And, I anxiously await his words.

I am just guessing here, that he might say what I have said.

Begotton, is used for Jesus. Begotten implies Unbegotten.

Would Jesus, exist as He does now, if He were never Begotten?

LOVE,

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Who do you propose Jesus, the Word, is, then? Because we clearly see John state that the "Word was God."

Jesus is not the word. The word is the good news of God the father. The word became flesh when Jesus Christ came into this world to preach the good news. Thats what it means. So no Jesus is not the word and jews did not use the word to ever refer to the messiah neither did john think oh let me be clever and call jesus the word.

 

[Wgw]

Jesus is not the word. The word is the good news of God the father. The word became flesh when Jesus Christ came into this world to preach the good news. Thats what it means. So no Jesus is not the word and jews did not use the word to ever refer to the messiah neither did john think oh let me be clever and call jesus the word.

No, because good news cannot ontologically be God, cannot create, and cannot become incarnate. What John was referring to was Jesus status as the memra, a concept similiar to the Hellenic philosophical concept of the Logos found in Philo.

 

[nomadictheist]

Jesus is not the word. The word is the good news of God the father. The word became flesh when Jesus Christ came into this world to preach the good news. Thats what it means. So no Jesus is not the word and jews did not use the word to ever refer to the messiah neither did john think oh let me be clever and call jesus the word.

It's all well and good to say that Jesus is not the Word, but I'm afraid if you want to consider it "theology" you will need the Bible to back you up.

John says, in John 1:1-18, that John the Baptist testified of the Word:

“This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”

And later (Vs. 29) we read:

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’"

But beyond that, in John 1 we read that all things were created through Him (the Word, a.k.a. Jesus), and without Him not one thing was created that was created. In 1 Corinthians we read "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Furthermore, we have the testimony of the church fathers. Some of the oldest writings testify to this, including the works of St. Irenaeus, which I have alluded to in another forum. Here is an excerpt from his writings, "Against Heresies."

"For it was to this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God... But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first , incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality...

...For as he became man in order to undergo temptation, so also was He the Word that He might be glorified; the Word remaining quiescent, that He might be capable of being tempted, dishonoured, crucified, and of suffering death, but the human nature being swallowed up in it (the divine)... He therefore, the Son of God, our Lord, being the Word of the Father, and the Son of man..."

If you're not familiar with St. Irenaeus, he lived from 130 AD to 202 AD. Which means that next to the New Testament writers, his are the earliest written records of what the early church believed.

And in case you're wondering why somebody would be arguing against this heresy that early in church history, it's because the idea that the Word was not Jesus originated with the gnostic sects of the first and second centuries AD.

 

[Der Alte]

Praise be to THE GOD and father of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 peter1:3

If Jesus is the one true God, who is THE GOD of the one true omnipotent God?

I asked you this the last time we chatted. You DID NOT reply

I may have missed a post at some time or other if it was bumped back 2-3 pages. Your question does not make any sense to me. I can't answer a nonsensical question. This question is in the category of "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?"

 

[katerinah1947]

It's all well and good to say that Jesus is not the Word, but I'm afraid if you want to consider it "theology" you will need the Bible to back you up.

John says, in John 1:1-18, that John the Baptist testified of the Word:

“This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”

And later (Vs. 29) we read:

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’"

But beyond that, in John 1 we read that all things were created through Him (the Word, a.k.a. Jesus), and without Him not one thing was created that was created. In 1 Corinthians we read "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Furthermore, we have the testimony of the church fathers. Some of the oldest writings testify to this, including the works of St. Irenaeus, which I have alluded to in another forum. Here is an excerpt from his writings, "Against Heresies."

"For it was to this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God... But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first , incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality...

...For as he became man in order to undergo temptation, so also was He the Word that He might be glorified; the Word remaining quiescent, that He might be capable of being tempted, dishonoured, crucified, and of suffering death, but the human nature being swallowed up in it (the divine)... He therefore, the Son of God, our Lord, being the Word of the Father, and the Son of man..."

If you're not familiar with St. Irenaeus, he lived from 130 AD to 202 AD. Which means that next to the New Testament writers, his are the earliest written records of what the early church believed.

And in case you're wondering why somebody would be arguing against this heresy that early in church history, it's because the idea that the Word was not Jesus originated with the gnostic sects of the first and second centuries AD.

Hi,

Again, you are not talking to me on this.

This is between you and another, not me, yet, or ever possibly.

Still, maybe be because you quoted directly out of the Bible, or for another reason, but.

Your statements on John 1:1-18 and John 1:29-30, all make perfect sense, Nicenely, if that wording is allowed to me.

It also makes perfect sense, in what I have been shown, Approved Private Revelation wise, also.,

Making things through Jesus makes sense.

All things maintained by Jesus, said somewhere Biblically makes sense also.

I just thought I would tell you that, as your words felt so lovely to me, on the subject of John 1:1-18 and John 1:29-30.

LOVE,

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus said the father was the ONLY true God and greater than he. scripture DOES NOT contradict itself. So anyone quoting scripture to try and show Christ is the one true God and the father is not greater than he, does NOT understand the meaning of the verses they quote

Out-of-context proof text theology, a vs. here and and a vs. there, thrown together irrespective of context. Where did Jesus say "the father was the ONLY true God and greater than he?" I do not know of any verse where Jesus made those two statements together. If I ignore context I can show where the Bible says "there is no God." Psalm 14:1 and 53:1. But when I read the context they say "The fool has said in his heart, there is no god."

 

[katerinah1947]

Out-of-context proof text theology, a vs. here and and a vs. there, thrown together irrespective of context. Where did Jesus say "the father was the ONLY true God and greater than he?" I do not know of any verse where Jesus made those two statements together. If I ignore context I can show where the Bible says "there is no God." Psalm 14:1 and 53:1. But when I read the context they say "The fool has said in his heart, there is no god."

Hi, (edits now done, hopefully)

You were not talking to me here.
And this is off topic.

I am passing the time waiting to find out if both Gentlemen, accept The Jesus of Psalms 2, as the Jesus they deal with and have dealt with, Religiously, and healing wise.

I define fool, Biblically, differently than I do in human and worldly terms, there, In the world, I have no idea what it means.

It is too difficult a word for me, in our world, or it has too many definitions and purposes mainly, for me to keep track of what it might mean.

Biblically, it seems to mean anyone who does not fear The Lord.

That too, Fear The Lord, has a different meaning, than us humans think, but is off my question.

Is your definition of the word 'fool' as it is used and defined in Proverbs, the same as mine Biblically?????

LOVE,

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus is not the word. The word is the good news of God the father. The word became flesh when Jesus Christ came into this world to preach the good news. Thats what it means. So no Jesus is not the word and jews did not use the word to ever refer to the messiah neither did john think oh let me be clever and call jesus the word.

The same arguments and out-of-context proof texts keep popping up time after time in the forum, so long ago I decided to stop trying to reinvent the wheel every time one of the arguments was posted, thus about a decade or so ago I started saving all my responses. Here is one from several years ago,

John was a simple Jewish fisherman, not a Greek philosopher, therefore his understanding of God and the Logos i.e. Word, would be Jewish, not Greek.

Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

In the below list, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” מאמר/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.

Remember this is not a Trinitarian source, it is the Jewish Encyclopedia prepared by Jewish scholars documenting the historical faith, beliefs, and practices of the ancient Jews. Some interesting quotes from the below article, all from the Targums, before the Christian era, note the parallels with the N.T..

Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra/Word.”

[1] “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.​

[2] “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

[3] “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14;18, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you..​

[4] “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. 1 Cor 1:30, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:​

[5] “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. 1 Cor 1;30, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand " (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word]not God Himself,against whom man offends(Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).

Jewish Encylopædia online[/indent ​

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hi,

Do you accept That Jesus spoken of in Psalms 2?

LOVE,

Lo of course I do. I also accept you cannot respond to any questions put concerning your beliefs, and for you to say psalms 2 shows an equal trinity is as fallible as you saying psalms110:1 shows an equal trinity. As soon as you are asked to respond to scripture concerning that verse you cannot do so

 

[stuart lawrence]

I may have missed a post at some time or other if it was bumped back 2-3 pages. Your question does not make any sense to me. I can't answer a nonsensical question. This question is in the category of "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?"

You have no answer do you for you cannot answer it. Therefore you certainly cannot assert you have a biblical mandate to support your beliefs

 

[Der Alte]

Hi,

You were not talking to me here.
And this is off topic.

I define fool, Biblically, differently than I do in human and worldly terms, there, I have no idea what it means.

It is too difficult a word for me, in our world, or it has too many definitions and purposes mainly, for me to keep track of what it might mean.

Biblically, it seems to mean anyone who does not fear The Lord.

That too, Fear The Lord, has a different meaning, than us humans think, but is off my question.

Is your definition of the word 'fool' as it is used and defined in Proverbs, the same as mine Biblically?????

LOVE,

I define words in scripture by the meaning/definition of the Hebrew/Greek word in the manuscripts. The word translated "fool" in Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 , is נבל /nabal, the definition is posted below.

נבל nâbâl naw-bawl'
From H5034; stupid; wicked (especially impious): - fool (-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), vile person.​