Why do some men minimise or deny the reality of domestic violence?

[Greyy]

Agreed that domestic violence is more than physical; it also has aspects of emotional, financial, social and spiritual abuse.

I have no doubt that there are abused people who fall into that dynamic from a place of woundedness. But to blame them for their place in that seems to me more likely to perpetuate the problem rather than help to break the cycle.

Pretending they are not a cooperative partner, in many cases, does not help the situation. Having worked with many families involved in domestic violence, I cannot say that a victim is necessarily innocent. This is especially the case in that victims that tolerate abuse become perpetuators of abuse when it occurs in front of their children.

If women typically seek harm, to deal with their wounds, as they observed in their families, and likewise, men typically harm to deal with their wounds, the notion of victims and perpetrators becomes counterproductive.

 

[Paidiske]

Perhaps neither is innocent, but one is clearly causing harm by (usually) his actions, as opposed to being the recipient of that harm. Should we not, as a society, demand that that be stopped?

 

[Zoii]

Possibly, more women report abuse, than abused men report. Men in American culture maybe have had more physical roughness in their upbringing, so that they might not be so impressed by being hit, somehow.

Also, a woman can be more damaging, by her psychological ways, including the silent treatment and just not paying attention to what is being said to her. A man might be more physical.

my opinion . . . since I don't know personally about several billion of the people you might be talking about

I offered a little bit of why, above . . . in the United States. In some countries, possibly the abuse is not as bad as other things; so it does not impress even the victim, in comparison with other problems.

I know I have thought I was being smart, by doing or not doing certain things. I have needed for God to have me see. No one could only tell me. So, I can see that there can be men who think what they are doing is smart.

Well, abuse is real. But also complaining and arguing are real, and they may not be treated like they are abuse, but they can deeply degrade people so people can get into severe depression which is much more painful and scary than being physically hit. And arguing can ruin a relationship, keeping people from finding out how to love.

Oh yes, by the way, there are men who simply do not know how to love. They can be a product of ones who did not truly love. So, part of the problem of abuse can be the whole way the abuser was brought up. So, just getting upset about the abuser can be neglecting to deal with the cause, as much as it came through the abuser's parents.

It can be that abuse is all the abuser has ever known, in his or her upbringing.

Your answer very much reinforced the OPs point

 

[Greyy]

Perhaps neither is innocent, but one is clearly causing harm by (usually) his actions, as opposed to being the recipient of that harm. Should we not, as a society, demand that that be stopped?

You are trying to promote the idea that one is causing harm, and the other is the recipient... and that one must believe this concept if they wish it to be stopped. In many cases, both seek and cause harm.

You are man that has just come home from work. Feeling tired, and frustrated, your wife immediately begins by going after you. She insults you, pushes, you, slaps you, and presses every button, and from what you know from your parents, and your relationship with her, the only thing that can resolve it is some form of violence. She is happy, and you have dealt with the situation as the only way you know how. When you both speak of these incidents, and your families speak of it, you are just 'having issues.' You don't see what the problem is.

But, then people like yourself are happy to come in and tell him he is the monster and she is the victim. You see she has the black eye, but you have no idea how many non-physically abusive things she did to provoke that. You can sit them down in your office, and listen to them cry, and feed into their need to re-assuring their victimhood. And then the cycle repeats.

If one wishes it to be stopped, they need to deal with what is really going on - instead of naive and inexperienced approaches to what is really going on.

 

[Zoii]

All I can say is that so many of the answers here reinforce the OPs position. Domestic violence is a major issue, with men physically and psychologically abusing their spouse. Murder of the wife and children is far too frequently the outcome. Equally frequently is the defense of men who diminish responsibility and severity of the issue. Thank you Paidiske for raising this.

 

[Zoii]

You are trying to promote the idea that one is causing harm, and the other is the recipient... and that one must believe this concept if they wish it to be stopped. In many cases, both seek and cause harm.

You are man that has just come home from work. Feeling tired, and frustrated, your wife immediately begins by going after you. She insults you, pushes, you, slaps you, and presses every button, and from what you know from your parents, and your relationship with her, the only thing that can resolve it is some form of violence. She is happy, and you have dealt with the situation as the only way you know how. When you both speak of these incidents, and your families speak of it, you are just 'having issues.' You don't see what the problem is.

But, then people like yourself are happy to come in and tell him he is the monster and she is the victim. You see she has the black eye, but you have no idea how many non-physically abusive things she did to provoke that. You can sit them down in your office, and listen to them cry, and feed into their need to re-assuring their victimhood. And then the cycle repeats.

If one wishes it to be stopped, they need to deal with what is really going on - instead of naive and inexperienced approaches to what is really going on.

I have a simple answer. Keep your hands to yourself KEEP YOUR HANDS TO YOURSELF

 

[Paidiske]

You are trying to promote the idea that one is causing harm, and the other is the recipient... and that one must believe this concept if they wish it to be stopped. In many cases, both seek and cause harm.

You are man that has just come home from work. Feeling tired, and frustrated, your wife immediately begins by going after you. She insults you, pushes, you, slaps you, and presses every button, and from what you know from your parents, and your relationship with her, the only thing that can resolve it is some form of violence. She is happy, and you have dealt with the situation as the only way you know how. When you both speak of these incidents, and your families speak of it, you are just 'having issues.' You don't see what the problem is.

But, then people like yourself are happy to come in and tell him he is the monster and she is the victim. You see she has the black eye, but you have no idea how many non-physically abusive things she did to provoke that. You can sit them down in your office, and listen to them cry, and feed into their need to re-assuring their victimhood. And then the cycle repeats.

If one wishes it to be stopped, they need to deal with what is really going on - instead of naive and inexperienced approaches to what is really going on.

No, she is not "happy." She may have experienced a form of emotional catharsis, but that is not the same thing.

And it's not a matter of saying he's a monster. He's a human being, flawed as are we all. But absolutely his behaviour has to stop. And if she is also being abusive, her behaviour has to stop. What you don't seem to hear me saying is that abuse has to stop. Not be excused or explained away.

And for what it's worth, I wouldn't be sitting them down in my office - because I'm really not naive but I'm not expert at this sort of relationship counselling - I'd be referring them to someone who is.

 

[Torino]

I'd say men minimize it because the way it's usually presented isn't honest. So they call BS and move on.

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

I see this happen time and time and time again.

The statistics are there. They're not invented and they're pretty frightening, when we look at the reality of what proportion of women are abused in their own home.

So why, instead of being outraged and working with us to eradicate this, do so many men seem to want to minimise or deny it?

I honestly don't understand what good comes of trying to pretend this isn't real.

You should be fair in giving statement.

In reality, men/husbands are abused by women/wives too.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals

You could name it: dead bedrooms, adultery, nagging (especially in her period), etc.

 

[Zoii]

You should be fair in giving statement.

In reality, men/husbands are abused by women/wives too.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals

You could name it: dead bedrooms, adultery, nagging (especially in her period), etc.

You should be fair in giving statement.

In reality, men/husbands are abused by women/wives too.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals

You could name it: dead bedrooms, adultery, nagging (especially in her period), etc.

Its discredits an argument when its biased. You have quoted a Guardian article that comes from a Mens rights group who have very mysoginist views. The Guardian quoted directly from men's rights campaign group Parity who are known for their anti-female agenda.

If you want to be genuine in your arguments to the OP then quote an unbiased source. Please go to your State Law Enforcement website or the World Health Organization. There you will find that tragically this is very much a case a domestic violence against women perpetrated by men and that the predominance of males subjected to domestic violence is from their male partners.

My point is - Dont quote biased articles to discredit the OP through biased agendas...please use objective data from government agencies such as law enforcement.

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

Its discredits an argument when its biased. You have quoted a Guardian article that comes from a Mens rights group who have very mysoginist views. The Guardian quoted directly from men's rights campaign group Parity who are known for their anti-female agenda.

If you want to be genuine in your arguments to the OP then quote an unbiased source. Please go to your State Law Enforcement website or the World Health Organization. There you will find that tragically this is very much a case a domestic violence against women perpetrated by men and that the predominance of males subjected to domestic violence is from their male partners.

My point is - Dont quote biased articles to discredit the OP through biased agendas...please use objective data from government agencies such as law enforcement.

I disagree.

What about adultery? It is the most painful abuse of the soul ever, done by both men and women.
I have read countless forum posts about that across the Internet.

Wives with Choleric personality (Alpha females) abuse their husbands the most and treat them as doormat.

 

[Zoii]

I disagree.

What about adultery? It is the most painful abuse of the soul ever, done by both men and women.
I have read countless forum posts about that across the Internet.

Wives with Choleric personality (Alpha females) abuse their husbands the most and treat them as doormat.

I can only repeat that it is of no value sprouting individual cases of adultery or anything subjective when the topic is about Domestic Violence. To be factual and unbiased use recognized data from a reliable source such as law enforcement

 

[Greyy]

No, she is not "happy." She may have experienced a form of emotional catharsis, but that is not the same thing.

A person in a violent relationship is unlikely have a concept of 'happiness' similar to more psychologically healthy people. For them, the violence constitutes happiness.

And it's not a matter of saying he's a monster. He's a human being, flawed as are we all. But absolutely his behaviour has to stop. And if she is also being abusive, her behaviour has to stop. What you don't seem to hear me saying is that abuse has to stop. Not be excused or explained away.

What I see is a topic you created blaming men. The whole premise of this discussion was counter productive and harmful.

Your argument is what at this point? It has to stop. Well golly, that's courageous.

And for what it's worth, I wouldn't be sitting them down in my office - because I'm really not naive but I'm not expert at this sort of relationship counselling - I'd be referring them to someone who is.

If you want to style yourself as a 'pastor', you ought to be calling people into your office in addition to making appropriate referrals to see if they are meeting their needs.

 

[Zoii]

A person in a violent relationship is unlikely have a concept of 'happiness' similar to more psychologically healthy people. For them, the violence constitutes happiness.



What I see is a topic you created blaming men. The whole premise of this discussion was counter productive and harmful.

Your argument is what at this point? It has to stop. Well golly, that's courageous.



If you want to style yourself as a 'pastor', you ought to be calling people into your office in addition to making appropriate referrals to see if they are meeting their needs.

I can scarcely believe anyone would say a women enduring constant violence against her from her spouse would be "For them, the violence constitutes happiness." I suggest you volunteer a little time in a womens refuge, as I have, and see for yourself just how happy they are - you will see women who have been terrorized.

Now lets make no mistake here because you say alot about the plight of men yet this is an unfounded opinion. Opinions are worth ZERO - the only thing that matters is fact and the best unbiased objective facts come from your local law enforcement agency or the WHO....not some crazed men's group. If you dared to look into the facts from WHO or any law enforcement agency then you will note that this is an issue of women being assaulted and murdered by their male partners. Male victimization is also reported but is a minor percentage, with by far the greatest percentage of perpetrators being the mans MALE partner. These are the facts by objective agencies NOT an unfounded biased opinion which is what you of course you feel free to use.

The pastor is quite right to speak up against it. Rape and assault upon women is a male gender problem. Brave men will stand up - note it - and do something to address it .

 

[Paidiske]

Your argument is what at this point? It has to stop. Well golly, that's courageous.

I was going a step further than that, and saying that in order to work together to stop it, first we have to acknowledge the extent of it, and I see a reluctance to do so. I wanted to explore why that was.

If you want to style yourself as a 'pastor', you ought to be calling people into your office in addition to making appropriate referrals to see if they are meeting their needs.

First, I don't "style myself" as anything; I am a validly ordained Anglican priest. I hold the Archbishop's licence. This isn't something I've set myself up to do.

Second, I intervene pastorally as the need arises and it is appropriate. And I make referrals as appropriate. What is not appropriate here is you using your disagreement with me on this topic to attack my in-real-life ministry.

 

[Greyy]

I was going a step further than that, and saying that in order to work together to stop it, first we have to acknowledge the extent of it, and I see a reluctance to do so. I wanted to explore why that was

No, the topic was why do men minimize and deny domestic violence. You say we need to acknowledge the extent of it, and yet you ignore most of the circumstances and issues associated with it.

You are promoting the very stereotypes that continue to problem. I do not know of any other way to describe it.

First, I don't "style myself" as anything; I am a validly ordained Anglican priest. I hold the Archbishop's licence. This isn't something I've set myself up to do.

This statement has nothing to do with anything I said.

Second, I intervene pastorally as the need arises and it is appropriate. And I make referrals as appropriate. What is not appropriate here is you using your disagreement with me on this topic to attack my in-real-life ministry.

I have done no such thing. I pointed out that if one makes referrals in the context of a provider of pastoral care, that should not be the end of it. Understanding professional boundaries and limitations does not mean one is released of their obligation of providing care through follow up. I said this in response to your decision to post how you would handle a situation. You have now described my response to what you posted about what you would do as some unwarranted attack on your ministry because I disagree with you.

That's all that really needs to be said, but I don't mind making my content quite clear. That you are considered a priest within your faith community is completely irrelevant to this topic and anything I have said. One can be considered a priest without being a pastor, and one can provide regular even professional pastoral care, without being considered a priest throughout Christianity. What is relevant and what is open to scrunity are the actions a person takes, real or abstractly, they bring up in a discussion. You have made vague references to types of pastoral care you offer, without definitively stating if you are a pastor of a community. Thus, you seem to style yourself as a pastor, without actually stating that. I am not interested in labelling what you do - only responding to the actions and references you bring up by choice in this topic.

I don't expect everyone to be an expert on domestic violence or understand all its complexities. What I do strongly object to is the creation of a topic, and one only needs to read your title and first post, strongly pushing a premise that is not only false, but does harm to the very issue the person is claiming to be concerned about.

I have pointed out where you are wrong on this. Your response was that abuse needs to be stopped and not excused or explained away. You are only attempting to reaffirm the false premise on which you started this topic. You are doing the very thing that is at issue here. You have denied the role of many of the receptient of the final acts of violence and promoted gender stereotypes.

 

[Paidiske]

No, the topic was why do men minimize and deny domestic violence. You say we need to acknowledge the extent of it, and yet you ignore most of the circumstances and issues associated with it.

You are promoting the very stereotypes that continue to problem. I do not know of any other way to describe it.

That's not how I see it. How I see it is that many men want to downplay the statistics or deny that domestic violence happens at the rate that it does. I wanted to explore why that was.

A lot of the responses here seem to boil down to "Well, she really deserves it," "She provokes it," "It's her fault too when he hits her."

Is it really any marvel to you that I don't accept that?

As to the rest, you chose to comment on how I conduct my ministry in real life. It's irrelevant to this discussion, and I think it's inappropriate for you to drag it in, apparently as a means of undermining my credibility.

Better to stick to the topic, which is not my pastoral ministry.

 

[Greyy]

That's not how I see it.

That's not relevant. It sounds like you are just looking for affirmation of your perspective, instead of looking for deeper issues that can contradict out initial biases.

How I see it is that many men want to downplay the statistics or deny that domestic violence happens at the rate that it does. I wanted to explore why that was.

So you had a premise, and you weren't interested in determining the validity, only an explanation?

Men and women downplay domestic violence and I can go into great detail about that, or any sociology book.

A lot of the responses here seem to boil down to "Well, she really deserves it," "She provokes it," "It's her fault too when he hits her."

Is it really any marvel to you that I don't accept that?

You created a topic, essentially blaming men for domestic violence and you latched on to a few examples that reaffirms your belief that domestic violence is a male centered issue.

As to the rest, you chose to comment on how I conduct my ministry in real life. It's irrelevant to this discussion, and I think it's inappropriate for you to drag it in, apparently as a means of undermining my credibility.

I responded to your post about what you would do in a given situation. You continue to bring it up, mischaracterize it, and now you are making accusations about my motives... to replying to what you said you would do in a given situation... which apparently questions your priesthood or credibility.

Here is what you said:
"And for what it's worth, I wouldn't be sitting them down in my office - because I'm really not naive but I'm not expert at this sort of relationship counselling - I'd be referring them to someone who is."

Here is what I said:
"If you want to style yourself as a 'pastor', you ought to be calling people into your office in addition to making appropriate referrals to see if they are meeting their needs."

Perhaps I am deeply upset by your use of objective facts in this topic. I came here with an agenda and when it didn't work it, I decided to start accusing you of ridicious things.

Better to stick to the topic, which is not my pastoral ministry.

I'll continue to respond to the content of your posts.

 

[Paidiske]

I wanted an explanation of something I had observed, yes. Instead I seem to be getting a lot of defensiveness.

 

[Greyy]

I wanted an explanation of something I had observed, yes. Instead I seem to be getting a lot of defensiveness.

It seems you made an observation, then a faulty and albeit offensive hypothesis, and then sought confirmation of it.

Men abuse women who do not wish to be abused. And women abuse men that do not wish to be abused. Both sexes deny and minimalize the role of domestic abuse in relationships of family and friends. In many cases, abuse occurs because of a lack of resources, or knowledge of them. In some cases, relationships are abusive because both partners contribute to it. One of the hardest things about working with couples in abusive relationships is to get the victim help because of their fear, their minimalization of it, their contribution to it, or some mixture of these.

When you approach the issue of domestic violence with the belief that male minimalization is the only or dominate factor, you are will never deal with the issue.