Why do people try to obey the law when it's not possible

[Epoisses]

Feel free to point out that they sinned. I agree that they sinned. However, that did not keep God from saying the things that he did about their keeping the law. I agree with your points, but what do you have to say about the verses I quoted? How do you interpret them? It is not enough simply to say that they sinned and that is the end. God said that they kept the law.

Do you see a difference between keeping the law of Moses and having God’s agape love? Basically the law of Moses is just a set of rules and regulations. Every government has rules and regulations so one does not need to be religious or even Christian to keep them. Herein lies the difference between old covenant commandments and new covenant commandments.

Faith and Love are the two main new covenant commandments and cannot be performed by non-believers. Atheists can keep rules and regulations but can’t have genuine faith and love. They may have faith in the devil’s lies and have human love but this is far from the real thing that Jesus offers. Even genuine Christians with a strong relationship with Christ often fail to realize that they can’t ‘do’ faith and love. Both are the gifts of God and the Holy Spirit.

When God commended people for keeping the law in the old covenant they were simply meeting the minimum requirements. Keeping the law and even circumcision were just tests of faith and nothing more. It had no virtue or merit which is what the devil would love us to believe.

 

[disciple1]

Willie T
Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
And you don't obey the law so I don't understand what your trying to say.
Take care.

 

[Willie T]

I'm apologize. I thought you might be reading the posts.

Willie T
But I have demonstrated from the Bible that people could and did keep the law.

So we need to revise this bit of our logic and think through other possibilities.

(Willie T's reply)Do you see no problem with the point that if you fail any of the law, you fail all the law in its totality?

People, of course, cannot keep the law. But the law still exists, and as the Bible says in a couple of places, is good......... if used lawfully.

"Lawfully", meaning understood to be under submission to Jesus' sacrifice.

Christians still obey the law (You haven't killed anyone, or robbed a bank recently, right? Didn't think so. Me neither.), but we do not face the consequences (condemnation) of those times when we may not measure up to the task.

The laws are still the laws. But to Christians, they have become God's promises to us rather than just harsh "THOU SHALT NOT commands".

This is what I mean:

COMMAND! "Thou Shalt NOT Kill!!!"
God's promise: "Because you are mine, and I am with you, You Won't Kill." "You will not need to, nor want to, if you let My love live in you."

The same gentle idea can be applied to the other Commandments. Yes, they are still commandments, but now delivered with a loving whisper of comfort and assurance.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

They were considered to be keeping the law. You are getting now to what my point has been all along if you read my posts. The way the Bible uses the phrase "keep the commands, law" is what is important, not our theological debates. And the Bible says that people did keep the law.

Now once we have established that, we need to ask about the reason for Christ and the gospel. So much of our logic in soteriology is based on the idea that the reason Christ had to come was that no one could keep the law. But I have demonstrated from the Bible that people could and did keep the law.

So we need to revise this bit of our logic and think through other possibilities.

actually, you haven't. the examples you provided were people who didn't keep the law. they were blameless because of the underlying covenant abraham had with God. only Jesus was able to fulfill it .. and in doing so he totally broke the rules compared to other time periods .

you haven't actually proven anything . but it's okay to believe stuff . that's what people do . all this talk is just justifying why you actually believe it .. though the belief is separate from your logic . people are like that . it's just the way it is .

 

[mark273]

I can't say why God deemed them righteous. You can try to hinge your hope on those verses if you choose. But the Bible makes it too plain that we don't get to play that game.

Oh, okay. Let's ignore the verses I quoted and just go with yours. That makes things much easier. Why didn't I think of that before?

 

[mark273]

actually, you haven't. the examples you provided were people who didn't keep the law. they were blameless because of the underlying covenant abraham had with God. only Jesus was able to fulfill it .. and in doing so he totally broke the rules compared to other time periods .

you haven't actually proven anything . but it's okay to believe stuff . that's what people do . all this talk is just justifying why you actually believe it .. though the belief is separate from your logic . people are like that . it's just the way it is .

Okay then. Even though the verses I quoted do not say anything like what you are saying, I guess it doesn't matter. You have found me out. You win. We can go back to ignoring the verses I quoted. They don't ever figure into discussions on this point in systematic theologies either. I don't even know why we have these parts of the Bible. They just confuse weak-minded people like me and are obviously not relevant to the issues people raise. I will crawl back under my rock now.

 

[Alive_Again]

We're called to walk in love, which is to keep His commandments. Loving Him is doing what He says and He speaks to our hearts. We're not exempt from walking in love and to do so fulfills the righteous requirements of the spirit of the law.

Every instance of walking in His "statutes, commandments, etc." as a New Covenant believer would relate to it (when reading the OT), means walking in love.

 

[Willie T]

Okay then. Even though the verses I quoted do not say anything like what you are saying, I guess it doesn't matter. You have found me out. You win. We can go back to ignoring the verses I quoted. They don't ever figure into discussions on this point in systematic theologies either. I don't even know why we have these parts of the Bible. They just confuse weak-minded people like me and are obviously not relevant to the issues people raise. I will crawl back under my rock now.

You ALWAYS this touchy and argumentative? Relax. I'm just saying that ....
1. We all know we cannot keep all the laws.
2. We all know we don't have to.
3. We try anyway because we know our Father would like us to.
4. We fail all the time... just like the old-time guys did.
5. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, it will also be written of us that we weren't found guilty of disobeying the law.... not for purposes of judgement, anyway.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Okay then. Even though the verses I quoted do not say anything like what you are saying, I guess it doesn't matter. You have found me out. You win. We can go back to ignoring the verses I quoted. They don't ever figure into discussions on this point in systematic theologies either. I don't even know why we have these parts of the Bible. They just confuse weak-minded people like me and are obviously not relevant to the issues people raise. I will crawl back under my rock now.

how about we just agree to disagree?

 

[disciple1]

Mark 273
Sorry but I'm unable to answer your question they were blameless but the bible doesn't say the reason.
I can only assume it was love.

 

[Alive_Again]

1. We all know we cannot keep all the laws.
2. We all know we don't have to.
3. We try anyway because we know our Father would like us to.
4. We fail all the time... just like the old-time guys did.
5. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, it will also be written of us that we weren't found guilty of disobeying the law.... not for purposes of judgement, anyway.

The importance of discussions like these are so we do not excuse ourselves from that which IS required of us.

The law of statutes contained in ordinances are not for us today.

The fulfillment of the spirit of the law is required and not one jot or tittle will be taken away from the law UNTIL it is fulfilled. This means that we ARE required to fulfill the spirit of those laws. They are done so in love, by keeping His Word.

God didn't ask us to try and keep these "laws", really His ways, He commanded us to. We're to keep His love commandments. He writes them upon the tables of our hearts.

Of course we sin, but we are expected to repent and press in. We are cleansed when we repent and then we go forward in faith. It's not a free ticket. Of course it is not from our own works of the flesh. It is our works of obedience done from the walk of the Spirit. We're expected to obey because grace provided us the ability to walk in love, in the Spirit.

 

[Willie T]

The importance of discussions like these are so we do not excuse ourselves from that which IS required of us.

The law of statutes contained in ordinances are not for us today.

The fulfillment of the spirit of the law is required and not one jot or tittle will be taken away from the law UNTIL it is fulfilled. This means that we ARE required to fulfill the spirit of those laws. They are done so in love, by keeping His Word. The fulfillment of the entire law was accomplished 2,000 years ago in Jesus' sacrifice. We don't have the ability to do anything "more", or make it any better than Jesus has already done.

God didn't ask us to try and keep these "laws", really His ways, He commanded us to. And we could not (still cannot), so Jesus did it for us. We're to keep His love commandments. He writes them upon the tables of our hearts.

Of course we sin, but we are expected to repent and press in. And you feel we do this... how? We are cleansed when we repent and then we go forward in faith. Our "being cleansed" is not dependant upon anything other than the fact that we have already accepted Jesus. It's not a free ticket. Of course it is not from our own works of the flesh. It is our works of obedience Would you like to describe these "works of obedeience" for us? done from the walk of the Spirit. We're expected to obey because grace (This is Jesus) provided us the ability to walk in love, in the Spirit.

You seem to be advocating that there is something that we DO to "clear our slates", and allow us to continue forward. If so, what would that "something" be?

I ask because... If we sinned, and then got hit by a car thirty seconds later - before we got the chance to DO a "something" - then we would be up the creek without a paddle, correct?

 

[disciple1]

Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

[Alive_Again]

Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone

This is the scripture so many stumble over. We're not talking about attaining righteousness by works of the flesh. We attain it by faith as a gift. We walk in it by faith, in the Spirit. They are no longer works of the flesh. We are told to walk in the Spirit. If we're told to do this, we have the ability to do this. It's important to note that we're not attaining to righteousness by walking in the Spirit. We can't do this except by the gift of grace. But we CAN do it because of that same gift.

The fulfillment of the entire law was accomplished 2,000 years ago in Jesus' sacrifice. We don't have the ability to do anything "more", or make it any better than Jesus has already done.

Our commandments are to walk in love. We're not doing this to attain. We're doing this because we are commanded. If we do not do His commandments (which are to walk in love), then we are doing the works of unrighteousness (in darkness). Guess what the reward for that is?


I said: Of course we sin, but we are expected to repent and press in.

And you feel we do this... how?

When we sin we turn to the Lord and ask for forgiveness, with the purpose of changing. We press in by denying our flesh and walking in the Spirit. It's a deliberate walk.

Our "being cleansed" is not dependant upon anything other than the fact that we have already accepted Jesus.

The Word says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. That's "IF". We don't just "accept" Jesus and not walk in the light. We can walk in the Spirit and reap life. The counterpart is walking in darkness and reaping corruption. We'll reap what we sow. Our ability to walk in the Spirit is entirely by grace and we'll answer to God for our choice to have Him be Lord (by doing what He says), or not.

I said: It is our works of obedience

Would you like to describe these "works of obedeience" for us?

The law of God in the New Covenant is written on our hearts. We have a circumcised heart and are sensitive to His promptings. That's what we do. It's a walk of love. It's what Jesus said to do. He said if a man love me, he will keep My Word. It's obedience to what He shows us in our heart. It will agree with the written Word.

You seem to be advocating that there is something that we DO to "clear our slates", and allow us to continue forward. If so, what would that "something" be?

We don't clear our slates. God does. This is following our repentance and then we keep our robes by not walking in sin. He gave us this ability. Of course we will sin, but we are commanded to repent. God's not looking to catch us in a moment of vulnerability. He gave us His Son to save us, not to catch us when we stumble.

It would not be wise to disregard what He speaks to our hearts. If we turn to other idols (not just wood and stone, but an alternative), then our hearts harden and our fruit becomes bad. If we take on the ways of the world, our garden becomes stony and thorny. We must guard our hearts with all diligence because our fruit will suffer and we'll be judged by our fruit. If it is wicked and full of iniquity, we'll depart from Him.

God calls us to know Him intimately. We won't have any excuses because He gave us everything in the way of grace to overcome. Only overcomers won't have their names blotted out of the Book of life and inherit eternal life. We must overcome because the enemy is looking to distract us and harden us with the cares of this evil world. God is for us, but we cannot turn our back on Him.

 

[Willie T]

One statement kind of summed up most of what I seem to hear you saying... " and then we keep our robes...." by doing.

I say we do, because we have been given free robes to keep.

It is written this way..."We love Him because He first loved us."
You seem to be thinking "He will keep on loving us if we walk well enough in love."

I like straight talk, so how are you "walking in love", that believers in total grace are not?

 

[Alive_Again]

One statement kind of summed up most of what I seem to hear you saying... " and then we keep our robes...." by doing.
I say we do, because we have been given free robes.

You seem to be thinking "He will keep on loving us if we walk well enough in love."

I never said that at all. He loves us anyway. We are commanded to walk in love. Do you dispute this?

I like straight talk, so how are you "walking in love", that believers in total grace are not?

I'm a believer in total grace. I also walk by grace and it is the only way to walk. That is how you walk in the Spirit. You walk in love, purely by the grace of God within us.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:4-5

We keep our robes by walking worthy of the grace given to us.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 21:27

Nothing defiling makes it into Heaven.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

That's the big "IF". We have to walk and then we stay cleansed and undefiled. If we don't we have to get cleansed. That's part of the covenant. We get to do this, but we must do this when we sin.

Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
Psalms 119:1

For us, the "law of the Lord" is the one written in our hearts. It is the royal law of love that fulfills the righteous requirements of the law. The spirit or intent of the law.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:7-8

We're supposed to be without spot or wrinkle. We can become cleansed if we become spotted or wrinkled. Only by repentance and faith in the blood. Now we're here in the this world to walk in the light, not darkness.

 

[disciple1]

James chapter 2 verse 13 Judgement without mercy will be shown anyone who hasn't been merciful mercy triumphs over judgement.
James chapter 2 verse 18 Show me your faith without deeds and I'll show you my faith by what I do.

 

[disciple1]

Matthew chapter 7 verses 1-3
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? (1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
James chapter 2 verse 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.)
Now to Matthew chapter 7 verse 4-5
How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of you eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[mmksparbud]

HHMMMM----that may pose a slight problem for some people---there are so many in rehabs and mental institutions who quite literally, hate themselves.
It does take God to bring us to repentance, and to help us see that, though we are sinners, He still loved us enough to die for us. We were all bought by Him at a great price. We can only love our neighbor when we realize how much God loves us all, and that we must love ourselves, as He does. And loving ourselves, means treating our bodies, our minds with utmost respect and the 10 commandments teach us how to love God, our neighbor and ourselves, and lets us see that plank in our own eye, so that then we can ask for forgiveness and help in removing the plank.
It's not a vicious circle, it's a holy one!

 

[Epoisses]

HHMMMM----that may pose a slight problem for some people---there are so many in rehabs and mental institutions who quite literally, hate themselves.
It does take God to bring us to repentance, and to help us see that, though we are sinners, He still loved us enough to die for us. We were all bought by Him at a great price. We can only love our neighbor when we realize how much God loves us all, and that we must love ourselves, as He does. And loving ourselves, means treating our bodies, our minds with utmost respect and the 10 commandments teach us how to love God, our neighbor and ourselves, and lets us see that plank in our own eye, so that then we can ask for forgiveness and help in removing the plank.
It's not a vicious circle, it's a holy one!

For the first 2000 years of this earth's history there were no ten commandments. So how did those people know right from wrong without the Law? How did Enoch, Noah and Abraham develop Godly characters and live righteous lives?

They followed the spirit of the Law which means we can be saved without the letter of the Law. Paul actually says that the letter of the law kills or is destructive spiritually. The ten commandments are a giant detour on the plan of salvation.