Why do Christians and Messiancs disagree on so much?

[GuardianShua]

This is not true.

The entire Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts made it clear that converting to Judaism by circumcision and following the ritual/holiness laws was a false doctrine.

Circumcisionism is not a valid Christian belief because it Judaizes the Way.

Show us where it says that Gods laws are false doctrines. I think you have confused the Mosaic laws with the commandments of God. Circumcision is a non issue.

 

[cyberlizard]

This is not true.

The entire Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts made it clear that converting to Judaism by circumcision and following the ritual/holiness laws was a false doctrine.

Circumcisionism is not a valid Christian belief because it Judaizes the Way.

i agree with everything in this post except for the part about following ritual/holiness laws...

without those laws, you are unable to define what constitutes 'sexual immorality' in God's eyes.

more to the point I want someone to explain why they told the gentiles not to 'eat things strangled'... where did they get that from, as it certainly isn't Torah. Therefore they laid on gentiles something even extra to the Torah given at Sinai. Why did they do that?



Steve

 

[PaladinValer]

i agree with everything in this post except for the part about following ritual/holiness laws...

Then you must believe Jesus isn't our Great High Priest and Temple Hierarch.

I do believe He is. He is my Sacrifice. He annulled those laws BECAUSE HE IS THE LAW. Only He did. I cannot. You will never and no one ever could. They are worthless thanks to our Risen Savior.

Amen.

 

[2 King]

don't ceremonial laws lead to the basic ritual of Worship?!?!? then we still need that right?

 

[Fixation On God]

yeah, so I don't know what these people are babbling on about, when cermemonial laws= modern worship (via Christianity).

Without knowing it, Christians are followers of a Greco-Roman culture of names, terms, and festivals, all adopted intact from Pagan sources, yet adapted or mixed carefully with ideas and people from the Hebrew Scriptures.
The mixing together of practices and beliefs is called syncretism. These heresies began through the teachings of Simon Magus, and eventually became the institution known as Roman Catholicism.
Every detail of Scriptural observance was omitted, and replaced with new observances. With skillfully crafted reasoning over many centuries, the formerly Pagan observances were camouflaged or wrapped in new meanings.
Examples:
Sacraments - Yahuah never commanded them, hinted at them indirectly, or mentioned any such thing. They add to the Torah, against Dt. 12.
Sun-day - the Day of the Sun. Many other "strange festivals" were invented, all being adaptations from former sun worship.

Easter Day - the Pagan festival of the impregnation of Mother Earth by the rays of the springtime sun. Ostara, Astarte, Eostre, Asherah, Eastron, and other names were used for this Pagan deity. It became adopted to refer to Yahusha’s day of resurrection.

Christmas - The winter solstice festival, commemorated as the nativity of the sun, re-thought by Dionysius Exiguus in 525 CE, now promoted as the birthday of the Messiah of Israel. Wreaths (wombs), trees (phalluses), tinsel (sperm) & balls (testes) were used to observe the sexual aspects of this Pagan ritual. The tree was an altar where offerings were placed for the deity (Asherah).
The womb wreaths represented Baal, and the phallus trees represented Asherah. This is a practice inherited from the ancient Canaanites, specifically Jezebel.

The Messiah of Israel observed none of these practices.

1 John 2:3-6
"We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His Commands. The man who says, "I know him ," but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But if anyoneobeys His Word, Elohim's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Yahusha did."
If we walk "as" Yahusha did, we do the things He did, and observe the observances He observed, according to the Word of Yahuah. He lived as our example. So, how does it become appropriate for us to ignore all the things He did, and embrace Christmas, Easter, and Sun-day, observances borrowed from Pagan cultures?
This brief comparison page is intended to EXPOSE the darkness and deception that has overtaken the world.

"For you were once darkness, but now you are LIGHT in (the Rabbi). Live as children of LIGHT (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) andfind outwhat pleases (Yahuah). Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but ratherexpose them." Eph 5:8-12

Messianics are followers of Yahusha of Natsarith, the Messiah of Israel, who also obey Torah (The Covenant with Israel).

Our belief is that all people outside the Covenant must engraft through the Covenant, written upon their hearts by the Spiritual indwelling of the Messiah.

ahh this reminds me of Orthodox Rabbinical Judaism

Brief History Lesson:

RABBIis a term which the Pharisees were known by.
The Pharisees grew very powerful after the city and Temple of Yahuah was destroyed in 70 CE. The most powerful "rabbi" within Pharisaism arose in the early 2nd century, and he took it upon himself to put the "oral law" into a written form, called the Talmud. His name was AKIBA. He perceived the Yahudim who followed Yahusha to be a serious threat, so he promoted a false Messiah (Bar Kochba) as a scheme to legally kill the Natsarim, the followers of Yahusha.As Bar Kochba rose-up as the false Messiah, his followers challenged the Roman occupation. The Natsarim would not fight Rome over this false Messiah, and so this gave Bar Kochba (and the instigator, AKIBA), the legal authority to exterminate them - at least in their eyes. So, many Natsarim were killed, and even more driven away.
Thus, Rabbinical Judaism (Pharisaism) took complete control over the early development of the post-Temple era, and it is still alive and well as an apostate form of religion, mostly due to this "Talmud", begun by AKIBA. In it there are fabulous tales of AKIBA's greatness, and horrendous tales about Yahusha.
The concept of "RABBI" is central to the Talmud's idea of eternal life. Without a "RABBI", one cannot possibly acquire eternal life, according to Talmud.
Talmud declares that all Rabbis are infallible.
AKIBA's Talmud also declares that YAHUAH is but one of 70 rabbis, and He must go along with what the majority says.
Many Messianic leaders quote from this Talmud, unwittingly using AKIBA's rationalizations in their own teachings. Since Yahusha was called a "RABBI" (my Teacher), it is likely that He was mistakenly thought to be a Pharisee, or the dominance of Pharisaism was so great that all who taught were customarily referred to by this term.
The word "RABBI" is not found in the TaNaKh

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

yeah, so I don't know what these people are babbling on about, when cermemonial laws= modern worship (via Christianity).

Without knowing it, Christians are followers of a Greco-Roman culture of names, terms, and festivals, all adopted intact from Pagan sources, yet adapted or mixed carefully with ideas and people from the Hebrew Scriptures.
The mixing together of practices and beliefs is called syncretism. These heresies began through the teachings of Simon Magus, and eventually became the institution known as Roman Catholicism.
Every detail of Scriptural observance was omitted, and replaced with new observances. With skillfully crafted reasoning over many centuries, the formerly Pagan observances were camouflaged or wrapped in new meanings.
Examples:
Sacraments - Yahuah never commanded them, hinted at them indirectly, or mentioned any such thing. They add to the Torah, against Dt. 12.
Sun-day - the Day of the Sun. Many other "strange festivals" were invented, all being adaptations from former sun worship.

Easter Day - the Pagan festival of the impregnation of Mother Earth by the rays of the springtime sun. Ostara, Astarte, Eostre, Asherah, Eastron, and other names were used for this Pagan deity. It became adopted to refer to Yahusha’s day of resurrection.

Christmas - The winter solstice festival, commemorated as the nativity of the sun, re-thought by Dionysius Exiguus in 525 CE, now promoted as the birthday of the Messiah of Israel. Wreaths (wombs), trees (phalluses), tinsel (sperm) & balls (testes) were used to observe the sexual aspects of this Pagan ritual. The tree was an altar where offerings were placed for the deity (Asherah).
The womb wreaths represented Baal, and the phallus trees represented Asherah. This is a practice inherited from the ancient Canaanites, specifically Jezebel.

The Messiah of Israel observed none of these practices.

1 John 2:3-6
"We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His Commands. The man who says, "I know him ," but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But if anyoneobeys His Word, Elohim's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Yahusha did."
If we walk "as" Yahusha did, we do the things He did, and observe the observances He observed, according to the Word of Yahuah. He lived as our example. So, how does it become appropriate for us to ignore all the things He did, and embrace Christmas, Easter, and Sun-day, observances borrowed from Pagan cultures?
This brief comparison page is intended to EXPOSE the darkness and deception that has overtaken the world.

"For you were once darkness, but now you are LIGHT in (the Rabbi). Live as children of LIGHT (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) andfind outwhat pleases (Yahuah). Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but ratherexpose them." Eph 5:8-12



ahh this reminds me of Orthodox Rabbinical Judaism

Brief History Lesson:

RABBIis a term which the Pharisees were known by.
The Pharisees grew very powerful after the city and Temple of Yahuah was destroyed in 70 CE. The most powerful "rabbi" within Pharisaism arose in the early 2nd century, and he took it upon himself to put the "oral law" into a written form, called the Talmud. His name was AKIBA. He perceived the Yahudim who followed Yahusha to be a serious threat, so he promoted a false Messiah (Bar Kochba) as a scheme to legally kill the Natsarim, the followers of Yahusha.As Bar Kochba rose-up as the false Messiah, his followers challenged the Roman occupation. The Natsarim would not fight Rome over this false Messiah, and so this gave Bar Kochba (and the instigator, AKIBA), the legal authority to exterminate them - at least in their eyes. So, many Natsarim were killed, and even more driven away.
Thus, Rabbinical Judaism (Pharisaism) took complete control over the early development of the post-Temple era, and it is still alive and well as an apostate form of religion, mostly due to this "Talmud", begun by AKIBA. In it there are fabulous tales of AKIBA's greatness, and horrendous tales about Yahusha.
The concept of "RABBI" is central to the Talmud's idea of eternal life. Without a "RABBI", one cannot possibly acquire eternal life, according to Talmud.
Talmud declares that all Rabbis are infallible.
AKIBA's Talmud also declares that YAHUAH is but one of 70 rabbis, and He must go along with what the majority says.
Many Messianic leaders quote from this Talmud, unwittingly using AKIBA's rationalizations in their own teachings. Since Yahusha was called a "RABBI" (my Teacher), it is likely that He was mistakenly thought to be a Pharisee, or the dominance of Pharisaism was so great that all who taught were customarily referred to by this term.
The word "RABBI" is not found in the TaNaKh

Welcome to GT (General Theology)...

Good to see you have an opinion. Historically incorrect... but an opinion.

Who teaches this?

Forgive me...

 

[Saera]

FoG, you're way over your head!
The Christian part though is true, not sure of Orthodox Rabbincal Judaism, never studied up on that.
anyways.

Historically, Christianity has featured supersessionism in which the Mosaic Covenant of the First Testament is superseded by the New Covenant of Jesus ,wherein the merciful grace of God and not obedience to the Torah is required for salvation. This is sometimes complemented with God moving the status of "God's people" from Israel, as the First Testament announces, to the Christian Church. Messianic Judaism, in varying degrees, challenges both thoughts. Israel, though it has rejected Jesus (by majority) has not forfeited its place as God's chosen people. They quote Romans 11:29 which says "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." The core of supersessionism, in which the First Testament covenant is canceled, is less agreed upon. Though the mitzvoh may or may not be necessary, most are still followed, especially keeping Sabbath and other holy days.

A few Messianics oppose being called “Christians”, and do not call themselves Christians. This is largely due to the fact that Messianic Judaism consciously differs from Christianity in various matters such as Torah observance, Hebraic mindset, and the general view that belief in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah does not represent a departure from the synagogue.

 

[2 King]

Christmas - The winter solstice festival, commemorated as the nativity of the sun, re-thought by Dionysius Exiguus in 525 CE, now promoted as the birthday of the Messiah of Israel. Wreaths (wombs), trees (phalluses), tinsel (sperm) & balls (testes) were used to observe the sexual aspects of this Pagan ritual. The tree was an altar where offerings were placed for the deity (Asherah).
The womb wreaths represented Baal, and the phallus trees represented Asherah. This is a practice inherited from the ancient Canaanites, specifically Jezebel.

I strongly disagree with this heresy!

Good to see you have an opinion. Historically incorrect...

He's right! It is very historically incorrect! Christmas is based on the Nativity not all this Pagan BS. (i.e The "Christ" in Christmas.) Get your facts together. I do agree however on easter and such. Never studied on Orthodox denomanations so I can't say my oppinion on that.

A few Messianics oppose being called “Christians”, and do not call themselves Christians. This is largely due to the fact that Messianic Judaism consciously differs from Christianity in various matters such as Torah observance, Hebraic mindset, and the general view that belief in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah does not represent a departure from the synagogue.

Yes! this is exactly what I've been trying to say! Seems people overlooked it though.

I was just reading on Ellen White a SDA Bible interpreter. Who interpreted Colossians 2:14 as saying that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross. Not saying I believe that, but I would like some views upon that verse.

 

[Fixation On God]

Welcome to GT (General Theology)...

Good to see you have an opinion. Historically incorrect... but an opinion.

Who teaches this?

Forgive me...

I am glad to be welcomed to GT,

Yes I had an opinion. and Yes I have now realized it is historically incorrect.
The person who taught this was a man by the name of Leon Kursonus. Who studied at some Scriptural University.

Forgive me as well...

 

[cyberlizard]

Then you must believe Jesus isn't our Great High Priest and Temple Hierarch.

I do believe He is. He is my Sacrifice. He annulled those laws BECAUSE HE IS THE LAW. Only He did. I cannot. You will never and no one ever could. They are worthless thanks to our Risen Savior.

Amen.

Of course I believe Jesus is our great Cohen HaGadol, however the book of Hebrews is discussing the age to come (not the age we are in now)....

If jesus annulled the purity laws, then apparently no one told the early church that purity was not required, otherwise believers would not have continued to take part in the temple system, bringing their sacrifices and offerings, engaging in ritual immersions for purification (aka mikvah) and they would not have been continuing to take nazarite vows.

Apparently, your practise of Christianity is somewhat different from that of the believers in the first 40 years of the 'church'. Does this make your practise wrong, of course not, it's just adapted to changing circumstances.

The same is true of mine.


Steve

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snipOf course I believe Jesus is our great Cohen HaGadol, however the book of Hebrews is discussing the age to come (not the age we are in now)....

Steve

I have always assumed that Age has already come.....as least as far as the OC Jews/Israelites are concerned.
Let FREEDOM ring!!!!

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952> and the together-Finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age" [1 Corin 15:23,24]

Reve 15:1 And I visioned another Sign in the heaven, great and marvelous, Messengers seven, having stripes/blows seven, the last, that in them is-Finished/etelesqh <5055> (5681) the Fury of the God.

 

[Fixation On God]

if the age is already in motion...then Escatology is a waste...and what is said in Matthew 24 is true, of how it will be like a thief in the night (unexpected.)

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

if the age is already in motion...then Escatology is a waste...ane what is said in Matthew 24 is true, of how it will be like a thief in the night (unexpected.)

Matthew 13 goes even farther and tells you who will be taken "first".

Those being taken by "the thief in the night" are not in for a good time.

Glad to see you're a good sport too!

Forgive me...

 

[PaladinValer]

Of course I believe Jesus is our great Cohen HaGadol,

The necessity to Judaize everything must go...

however the book of Hebrews is discussing the age to come (not the age we are in now)....

The Millennium is now. Premillennialism was declared unorthodox in 381.

If jesus annulled the purity laws, then apparently no one told the early church that purity was not required, otherwise believers would not have continued to take part in the temple system, bringing their sacrifices and offerings, engaging in ritual immersions for purification (aka mikvah) and they would not have been continuing to take nazarite vows.

They were told in the Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts.

Apparently, your practise of Christianity is somewhat different from that of the believers in the first 40 years of the 'church'. Does this make your practise wrong, of course not, it's just adapted to changing circumstances.

My practice of Christianity is rooted in the Apostles, not in Judaizerism.

 

[2 King]

Messianic Jews don't believe in the Trinity.
Christians do

 

[cyberlizard]

the idea messianics don't believe in the trinity is also moot... some belive in it as in the terms of the athanasian creed, some reject it on the grounds of an understanding of the Shema, others accept it, but object to the language in which it is phrased.

we cannot just presume all messianics believe a,b,c any ore than we can presume all christians are pentecostals or baptists.


Steve

p.s. my practice of Christianity seeks to be more akin to that of the early disciples than that of the later creeds (by which time christianity was well cut off from her roots and had well and truly began to boast against the 'natural branches').

 

[PaladinValer]

If they reject the Trinity, how can they call themselves Christian?

And if they disagree with the Symbol of Faith as well, how again can they call themselves Christians?

The Nicene Creed is the test of orthodoxy.

 

[2 King]

Messianic Jews don't believe in the Trinity.
Christians do

oops, forgot to add (Most) in that post.

Creed is heresy...
Edit:------Orthodox takes in heresy...


How can they be Jews and Christians at the same time, unless they are going by the Romans 6:9 teaching.

 

[unkern]

I am glad to be welcomed to GT,

Yes I had an opinion. and Yes I have now realized it is historically incorrect.
The person who taught this was a man by the name of Leon Kursonus. Who studied at some Scriptural University.

Forgive me as well...

I agree with most of what you said. To emphasize on christmas how ever this was more importantly the birthday of Mithras which is the main reason it was added by Constantine.

The actually birth date of Messiah is during the feast of tabernacles. I used to have a certain study on it that, that I need to re-find. But, here are some examples: The shepherds had their sheep out, and it will get to freezing temperatures in that month. According to the time-line of when Zachariah served his temple period, and more importantly "the word became flesh" and tabernacled with us. After 8 days he was circumcised, he was born in a manger with other sacrificial animals because there was no other room for them to stay because of the festival going on, and they werent celebrating christmas, so it could either be the festivals that signify his death in spring or the festival in fall called the feast of tabernacles.

Also Paladinvaler - if you believe the way the apostles did than show me where they did not follow the laws? Also Paul said to be like him as his trys to be like Messiah, where did Messiah not follow the laws?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Edit:------Orthodox takes in heresy...

Contradiction in terms.

Forgive me...